Salvation Vs Maturation

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Xian Pugilist, Aug 7, 2012.

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  1. Thank you God for saving us.
    Thank you God for changing us.

    They are not the same event as best I can tell. One example...

    Rom 6:22
    But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive you benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

    Freed from sin. = atonement= when you are officially "saved".
    Enslaved to God = obedience=
    (Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, Vs 16A)
    Then you receive a benefit. Gal 5:16 Spirit, 1 john 3:9 His seed.
    The benefit results in sanctification. == where you have been made different, changed, not just in "positional perception" but actualy changed.

    Does knowing that there is more than just salvation in the plans, excite you or disturb you?
  2. I read the title and the OP but have as yet to reason what you are trying to say. I can tell you that there is no verses here.
  3. Ok, other than Romans 6:22, Gal 5:16, romans 6:16, you are right. No verses. :| You'll have to help me figure out what you are looking for, I'll accomodate. But there are three vss there, which is a far cry from none.
  4. Salvation, being sins atoned for.
    Maturation, being changed completely.

    Not the same thing. Most think they are, what do you think...

  5. I believe there is a difference. 1. The Lord "saves" us; 2. by His grace to do works.

    I may be dead wrong here, but I don't recall any scriptures that reference having been made "perfect" at the point of salvation; hence the journey we are all on, until He calls us home.

    Yes, at accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are sealed by God and given the Holy Spirit in your heart.
    2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (ESV) "And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee." ​

    Other than "marking" us for His own, why did He do this? Scripture will tell us.
    Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."​

    Maturation doesn't happen by itself, unless you're a "fruit" or vegetable! :p lol .... Prayers, study, time, blood, sweat, tears, joy, victories, defeats... it all has a reason and a purpose and is allowed by our Father for one reason: so we will become more and more like His Son, maturing into heirs with Christ.

    Phil. 3:12 (ESV) "Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own."​

    What I take away: Don't think myself so "righteous" to presume He is not done with maturing me yet.
    1 Peter 4:18 "Now "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?"​

    Everything He does has multiple reasons and motivating factors; I am sure of this (in my heart). And, I for one, am SUPER-EXCITED to see what else my Father has in store for me! :)

  6. Ok, don't get onto me, I am just picking your brain here.
    What in that verse says that is at salvation? And who is the us? Why do we presume it's us? Example, Paul wrote letters to the milk drinkers, but talked different things to the meat eaters. Why couldn't this be the state of one or the other? Most likely the meat eaters are established with the milk drinkers in Christ. Now, the US is separate from the you. US with YOU... right? So when he goes on and says, has annointed US, why would that include the YOU? and who put his seal on US, given US blah blah. The US isn't necessarily the ones he was writing to. But we ALL assume it is to us.

    Be a doer and not a hearer, right?

    Ephesians 4 says it comes through works, that the church teaches us not leave us to our own study, but they prepare us for works, through which comes maturity as mature as Christ....

    Phil 3:15A Let us therefore, as many as are [fn]perfect, have this attitude;

    What I take away: Don't think myself so "righteous" to presume He is not done with maturing me yet.
    1 Peter 4:18 "Now "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?"​

    Everything He does has multiple reasons and motivating factors; I am sure of this (in my heart). And, I for one, am SUPER-EXCITED to see what else my Father has in store for me! :)[/quote]

    Enjoy the rabbit trails! :)
  7. ummm, I figured! :)
    Nothing in that verse; however Eph. 1:13 has it at salvation.
    I agree in part. Corinthians was written for a "troubled" church. But the letter to the Ephesians was written to (vs 1b) "to the saints... and faithful in Christ Jesus"
    I agree in principle but 2 Tim. 3:16 tells me it is still applicable to teach us something so cannot be disregarded, right? It is part of the whole counsel of God.

    Right! :)
    . I agree. But this side of heaven we are not yet made perfect and thus we must put the love Christ has shown to us and the love we have for Christ and his people into action, i.e, works.

    thanks, I did! :)
  8. Ok, I'm going to keep playing..... ready?

    What in eph 1:13 makes you think you or I are those that are sealed? If I'm in him, 1 john 3:6 says I don't sin any longer. So, why couldn't that verse.....
    Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    Paul is a MEAT eater right? He was writing his letters to MILK drinkers to help them get to meat, right? So we can assume, safely I think, that Paul had some people he taught, or considered... barnabas, timothy, titus... to be meat eaters as well. Those who were bastions of the church in those days. So if he wrote a letter to the milk, from those who were meat, when he says us it could be one of two people. OR he could be addressing a mature believer in vs 13, and when he says YOU ALSO, meaning you, like us, have been sealed. Paul says in anther place that he said different things to the mature than the milk, so it need not be expected every verse means the same thing to every person.

    So, it's just to make you think. But, I could go on, and I think justify that the intent of the author, in our english would have an implied IF before the IN HIM part. I don't care to go into it though, just engage your brain here.

    Oh yeah, regardless of who 1:13 is addressing, it doesn't say the "accepting... in our heart..." part, it's just addressing people already there. But, I'm getting dull and boring now.

    Um hmmmm...

    And if you put this with Ephesians 4, where he is addressing those who were in the positions like timothy, he is telling them their job is to lead the people to works of service. It's still they are to lead us, not we are to study on our own. It stands to reason the US was the mature as they were teaching.....

    1) What is perfect.
    2) Use scripture to make that claim.
    3) How can you read the ephesians 4 vss as written and say that? It seems to read pretty clearly you are to be perfect....

    Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
    Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
    The word mature there, in KJV is perfect.
    TO THE MEASURE, means how ever much spiritual maturity Christ would hold we would be holding the same amount.
    OF THE STATURE, means how ever big the spiritual maturity was, ours would be the same. (same size glass, just as full....)
    which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

    That sure sounds as perfect as Christ to me..... Using perfect the way it's supposed to be used btw.

    Meh, we mostly agree, and do on all the important parts. We differ in some details.

    But I felt I owed you a response.

  9. Thank you for your response; you owe me nothing, but I do appreciate it.

    Not ALL of Paul's letters were to "milk drinkers." Ephesians was clearly written "to the saints and the faithful in Christ Jesus." (See vs. Eph. 1:1b) Again, because Ephesians was written to the saints, the faithful in Christ Jesus, this would apply directly to me and you and all the true believers in Christ.
    Eph. 1:13 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory" (MY bolding for emphasis.)​

    It is His Spirit working IN us that gives us the will, and the desires which are of Him and He alone purposes us to do His will. Phil. 2:13 "For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him."

    Like I told you via PM, we will have to agree to disagree on this one, until further notice, anyway... Main thing is we are in agreement over the necessities, if you will. :)

    Blessings to you!! :)
  10. Last question, why do you think a saint can't be a milk drinker? It seems to me, as long as they were Christ's they are a sanctified one, a saint. The meat folks would be the ones who were not just considered set apart, but actually changed to br dofferent.... finished, full conversion...
  11. Good question. Rather than an exposition of what I believe this word "saints" used here in the context of Eph. 1:1, I will consult my handy-dandy online BLB reference, which tells me that the word in Eph. 1:1 (v. 1b) "saints" is
    ἅγιος (hagios) Strong's G40 which is an adjective which means 1) most holy thing, a saint.

    So, by definition, wouldn't you say that saints are not milk drinkers?
  12. Only if you say a milk drinker isn't covered by Christ's atoning sacrifice.

    If they are, then they are sanctified by grace, and in the process of being sanctified I. Life. That's milk/meat.

    In 1 john 1 john and his coterie, "us" were in fellowship with Godl. Those he wrote to were not. But Christ still spoke for their sins if they confessed.... whazzat do for ya?

  13. Not to get too far off topic, but I can't let this foundational verse go, so please bear with me, here.

    I really don't want to go any further until we come to some sort of end on this topic: You didn't acknowledge that "saints" meant "a most holy thing, a saint," my friend... That is what it said, right? SO, if that verse (Eph. 1:13) is written to the saints, which it was, then (remember: conditional conjunction if/then)

    Eph. 1:13 (KJV) "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

    I trusted what I heard and believed in Him, (that's all I have to do) and He sealed me with His Holy Spirit. Simple. He is in me causing me to do the works which He has set before me.

    NOW, milk drinkers are absolutely covered by Christ's atoning sacrifice! But, in Eph. he was not addressing milk drinkers.

    I'm not accurately following you on this one... gonna need the remedial version of this question, please :) : Xian Pugilist said: "In 1 john 1 john and his coterie, "us" were in fellowship with Godl. Those he wrote to were not. But Christ still spoke for their sins if they confessed.... whazzat do for ya?"

    No, we (none of us, not milk drinkers nor meat eaters) are not there (fully mature) yet, but onward we press for the prize to which He has called us!! :)
  14. You are very perceptive, Xian.

    What Jesus did ON THE CROSS only "saved"/rescued us from the penalties of the 10 commandment law and all the rules/"ordinances that Moses added.

    Ephesians 2:15
    "ABOLISHING in His flesh the law of commandments and ordinances".....

    .....('spiritual sin' was only possible by violating the 10 commandments and Moses' ordinances).

    So, yes, Jesus conquered death and destroyed/abolished the law against "sin"., NOW, FOR US, spiritual sin no longer exists (for the JESUS WORSHIPPER, there are no more ways to 'SIN SPIRITUALLY', spiritual sin simply no longer exists).

    Because Jesus conquered/destroyed what is referred to "the law of sin....AND DEATH" (He did not just destroy the law against "SIN"), it should have always been obvious to any serious thinker that there is more to what Jesus did (but the secular church doesn't inspire "thinkers", scholars only 'READ' and do as told).

    The "death" part passes away if we learn from God's "Spirit of life" (the Holy Spirit).

    "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin AND DEATH".

    The untaught SECOND PART of what Jesus did is....THE GIVING OF HIS SPIRIT (this is the second part of COMPLETE salvation, it's called "purification" of the CONSCIENCE).

    The Jews used to obtain "purification" OF THE FLESH ONLY every year on the "day of atonement" by performing rituals ("sacrifices and offerings",...."the "blood of bulls and goats"). It was only TEMPORARY purification, not ETERNAL purification.

    Because their purification did not truly CHANGE THE PERSON and make them peaceful and just ("good, and right, and true", Ephesians 5: 8 and 9), it was not really GENUINE....

    Hebrews 10:4
    "For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins"

    Because WE worship GOD ETERNAL (this is the age of eternity), God's Holy Spirit is now ETERNAL, His Spirit will teach us how to always 'do the right thing' (discern what is right to do) so that we will have a clear conscience (IF we personally decide to be a good student OF God's Spirit).

    Before Jesus ascended to sit at The Father's right hand (this is AFTER the crucifixion), He left God's Spirit for us to learn from (IF we decide to be a good student and have COMPLETE salvation as a SON of "Abba Father").

    John 7:39
    "for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified".

    Hebrews 9:14
    "eternal spirit........purify your conscience".

    No matter what blah blah excuse anyone gives you, this TWO PART and 'COMPLETE salvation has NEVER BEEN TAUGHT by the secular 'church'.

    ....(many scholars at the pulpit will disagree with me, but it's because they are embarassed).

    ...but then again, they were sincerely doing the best that they were taught.

    ......(I am an arrogant snob like the prodigal son's brother because I love my lord so much,.....but I also love my fellow man.....the brethren of humanity).

    When Paul spoke to the Athenians in Acts 17 (starting at verse 20), He explained to them that he's going to speak about what they already worshipped as "UNKNOWN". Obviously, they had been raised on the PRINCIPLES of Socratic truth and were of true spirit in their heart and mind (the "inner man" simply needed to know the identity of God and His SAVIOR).

    Hebrews 5:12 "PRINCIPLES" (God wants us to have PRINCIPLES and DISTINGUISH/discern between what's right and what's not right to do).......we need to understand that 'evil is illogical, PEACE AND HARMONY are LOGICAL'.

    Paul was well fit to speak with the Athenians......

    ....(scroll down to number three).

    So, yes, a person must change and have the philosophy/principle that "evil is illogical".

    Verses are from the RSV.
  15. Covered by Grace posted:
    1. ἅγιος is not an adjective, but a noun. But yes it means 'saint' Plural would be ἅγιοι.
    You are a that a noun or is that an adjective?
    He is a milk guzzling human, she is a carnivorous human.......they are both humans....get my drift?
  16. No.

    Oh, ok.

  17. I owe you a response because you took the time to make an argument. But I'm not engaging with you as per our previous encounter.

    You make a few big presumptions here. If they are right, then you are pretty ok with this belief.

    One tidbit to ponder. The "LAW" Paul always talks about is the one the jews were circumcised under. The commandments are a different covenant. Paul would not have confused the two together unless it was something like the "law and the prophets" referring to the books of the bible called the "law".

  18. Hmmm. A bit of heterodox theology brought in here. Deliberate? Maybe?
  19. what is heterodox theology o____O
  20. Two of my heroes were heterodoxical.


    Orthodoxy is defined by the largest mass of similar beliefs.

    What conservatives today call orthodox in the History of the Church is about 185 years old. But they won't challenge their beliefs to read the history to see that. S

    What is more important, that I agree with YOUR view of Xianity, or that I'm in line with the Bible.

    When I start spitting opinions with no scripture behind it, you have an argument. Until then you just drop lines like that to discredit me personally and not the position I took.

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