Salvation By Faith Alone Verses Works Based Salvation.
- Thread starter God calls me Olivia
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I don't follow men, only the bible. I have many verses. You do not have one that says salvation is by works. NOT ONE.
If you want to continue this with me, then find me that scripture first. Otherwise I am done. Obedience is faith and belief in Christ's work.
I think marriage is a good example of this, I was married one time, the legal documents were drawn up and signed by myself, my wife, the witnesses and the person officiating for the government and then registered in the official documents of the country, now if I were to try and go back and add something to those documents I would be refused, there would have to be other documents written to annul the first, but, ...I can show my love to the woman I married by my acts of love for her, ...which in no way adds to the original document or changes it.
IXOYE, I'm lost, I don't see the Holy Spirit mentioned in Matt 7, could you please show me where He is?
Also you use the word endure to try and prove your point, but Jesus wasn't using it in reference to born again believers, Matt 24:13 and Mark 13:13 are references chronological before the 3 1/2 year mark in the final 7 years of the 490 year prophecy of Dan 9, after the rapture of His Bride and there is no question Mark 4:17, He is is not talking about regenerated believers, ...maybe you can explain how you use these verses?
Blessings,
Gene
IXOYE, I'm lost, I don't see the Holy Spirit mentioned in Matt 7, could you please show me where He is?
Also you use the word endure to try and prove your point, but Jesus wasn't using it in reference to born again believers, Matt 24:13 and Mark 13:13 are references chronological before the 3 1/2 year mark in the final 7 years of the 490 year prophecy of Dan 9, after the rapture of His Bride and there is no question Mark 4:17, He is is not talking about regenerated believers, ...maybe you can explain how you use these verses?
Blessings,
Gene
I NEVER said salvation was by works .. QUIT TRYING TO PURPOSELY TWIST MY WORDS !!!
and I said salvation was by belief AND obedience ..
OBEDIENCE equates to DOING works/acts of charity ..
Hbr 5:9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the
source of eternal salvation,
and James says demons have belief .. do they have obedience ???
I am done here .. but you WILL remember this some day ..
sure Gene .. Paul tells us healing and prophesying ARE gifts of the HS ..
these who are rejected for LACK OF OBEDIENCE IN LOVE had these gifts ..
God Bless you ..
You have said it over and over. You have said salvation is by both works and faith and you have said that you can't know your saved until the end when you have proven yourself by works.
The confusion centers around how we get that faith needed for salvation in the first place.
What faith is needed? It is faith in Jesus being Lord. Now nobody can have true faith in Jesus being Lord unless it is revealed to them 1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. Jer 17:10 I the Lord search the heart and examine the mind.
When we draw near to God (works), He draws near to us James 4:8 / We open the door (works) and He comes in Rev 3:20.
I don't see why you disagreeing with Ixoye here. Heb 5:9 is not espousing works based salvation.
All of us have to be aware of the OT scenario with regards to Abrahams bosom. Salvation that they had nothing to do with... was when they were taken from Abrahams bosom (not Hades) to Heaven. So, something they did, got them into Abraham's bosom.
Discussion needs to center around what those OT saints did that got them into Abrahams bosom and not Hades.
Got to get to work but just seen this thread...the "works" we are to walk in are products of the Spirit of God and all else is dead works. James is not teaching "works" according to the "law of works", but works according to the "law of faith"...if you don't understand these two laws...then you have no ability to teach others the true and living works that God ordained for us to walk in.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Faith is a gift:
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. (2:8–9)
"Our response in salvation is faith, but even that is not of ourselves [but is] the gift of God. Faith is nothing that we do in our own power or by our own resources. In the first place we do not have adequate power or resources. More than that, God would not want us to rely on them even if we had them. Otherwise salvation would be in part by our own works, and we would have some ground to boast in ourselves. Paul intends to emphasize that even faith is not from us apart from God’s giving it.
Some have objected to this interpretation, saying that faith (pistis) is feminine, while that (touto) is neuter. That poses no problem, however, as long as it is understood that that does not refer precisely to the noun faith but to the act of believing. Further, this interpretation makes the best sense of the text, since if that refers to by grace you have been saved through faith (that is, to the whole statement), the adding of and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God would be redundant, because grace is defined as an unearned act of God. If salvation is of grace, it has to be an undeserved gift of God. Faith is presented as a gift from God in 2 Peter 1:1,Philippians 1:29, and Acts 3:16.
...
When we accept the finished work of Christ on our behalf, we act by the faith supplied by God’s grace. That is the supreme act of human faith, the act which, though it is ours, is primarily God’s—His gift to us out of His grace. When a person chokes or drowns and stops breathing, there is nothing he can do. If he ever breathes again it will be because someone else starts him breathing. A person who is spiritually dead cannot even make a decision of faith unless God first breathes into him the breath of spiritual life. Faith is simply breathing the breath that God’s grace supplies. Yet, the paradox is that we must exercise it and bear the responsibility if we do not (cf.John 5:40)."
From Grace to You
That last paragph pretty much sums it up. Faith is a gift too. If one does not yet have it, then they're not yet ready to receive the gift of salvation. Which brings out another point: when we ask people to pray "1,2,3, pray after me" many are putting faith in the prayer rather than in Jesus and we're helping to create a race of stillborns.
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I understand Hebrews 5:9 is not talking about works, but Ixoye seem to think that it is.
"How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised" (Romans 4:10-12)
Again this is talking of faith. I don't think that it can be said any better than what Abdicate just said. Even the faith is a gift. We have to choose to use it when the Holy Spirit reveals salvation.
"For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you" (Romans 12:3).
Ixoye continuously says that you have to keep the commands to be saved. This is works based salvation.
"for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17(as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist" (Romans 4:16).
Abraham is the father of those who use their faith.
IXOYE
sure Gene .. Paul tells us healing and prophesying ARE gifts of the HS ..
so then, with your reasoning, the big tourist attractions here is to walk over glowing hot coals, it''s not fake, standing beside the pit it's very hot, the witch doctor does his dance and chants his incantations and then leads the people across, so it's a miracle that men, women and children can walk bare footed over the coals and not be burned Pro 6:28, ...but, is it a miracle of the Holy Spirit or the devil?
And how about Pharaoh's magicians, is what they did of the Holy Spirit? Or Simon the magician in the New Testament?
Don't you think we need to be discerning when it's in the realm of the supernatural as to whether it's the Holy Spirit or the enemy?
Blessings,
Gene
sure Gene .. Paul tells us healing and prophesying ARE gifts of the HS ..
so then, with your reasoning, the big tourist attractions here is to walk over glowing hot coals, it''s not fake, standing beside the pit it's very hot, the witch doctor does his dance and chants his incantations and then leads the people across, so it's a miracle that men, women and children can walk bare footed over the coals and not be burned Pro 6:28, ...but, is it a miracle of the Holy Spirit or the devil?
And how about Pharaoh's magicians, is what they did of the Holy Spirit? Or Simon the magician in the New Testament?
Don't you think we need to be discerning when it's in the realm of the supernatural as to whether it's the Holy Spirit or the enemy?
Blessings,
Gene
YES..........Faith!
FAITH!
NOPE! Hebrews 5:9 is NOT speaking to works for salvation.
I think the mistake many people make is mixing justification and salvation together. No where does the bible put the two together. I think the following scholarly expositions elucidate the point best:
Harpers Bible Commentary:
1:18. It was that very point which Paul wanted to drive home to the Corinthians. The message of the Cross cuts to the heart of self-centeredness. Paul saw it as central to salvation which he understood to be a process begun by justification, advanced by sanctification, and climaxed in glorification. Paul spoke most pointedly in this verse and in the letter as a whole to the second of these phases, progressive sanctification. "The message of the Cross" is the message of self-renunciation, of obedience to God which may lead as it did in Jesus’ case to humiliation and death, but which ultimately leads not to self-destruction but to preservation (Mark 8:34-35) and exaltation (2 Tim. 2:12; Rev. 22:5). That was the recurring theme in these verses (1 Cor. 1:17-18, 23-24; 2:2, 8), an idea those who are perishing consider foolishness (cf. Luke 9:23-25)". vol 2 pg. 509
A Commentary, critical and explanatory, on the Old and New Testament |JFB:
"by works was faith made perfect—not was vivified, but attained its fully consummated development, and is shown to be real. So "my strength is made perfect in weakness," that is, exerts itself most perfectly, shows how great it is [Cameron]: so 1Jn 4:17; Heb 2:10; 5:9. The germ really, from the first, contains in it the full-grown tree, but its perfection is not attained till it is matured fully. So Jam 1:4, "Let patience have her perfect work," that is, have its full effect by showing the most perfect degree of endurance, "that ye may be perfect," that is, fully developed in the exhibition of the Christian character. Alford explains, "Received its realization, was entirely exemplified and filled up." So Paul, Php 2:12, "Work out your own salvation": the salvation was already in germ theirs in their free justification through faith. It needed to be worked out still to fully developed perfection in their life."
Harpers Bible Commentary:
"Fundamental for Paul’s concept of hope is the differentiation between justification and salvation; justification marks the beginning of the new life in Christ and sustains it to the end; salvation is the consummation of the gifts already experienced as a foretaste in baptism and in the living of the new life in Christ. This is precisely the point in Rom. 5:1-3, a most crucial text. What the Christian has obtained in this life is ‘access,’ not completed entrance, to God’s grace, and the apostle rejoices in the ‘hope of sharing the glory of God’ at the future consummation. The sign that the believer has access to this grace now is that ‘God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us.’ Thus Paul can assert that the ones in Christ who have ‘the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved’ (Rom. 8:23-24). Rom. 8:18-25 is also an important text, for it shows, as all the authentic Pauline references to salvation do, that salvation has a future orientation and is not yet complete (see Rom. 5:9-10; Phil. 3:7-14). It further shows that God’s revelation in Jesus Christ affects not only individuals, but creation itself, which God has subjected in hope ‘because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God’ (Rom. 8:19-21). "
Bakers Encyclopedia of the Bible:
"Salvation involves justification, regeneration, and sanctification in this life. In the life to come it means the glorification of the inner person and the resurrection of the body in glory. But such a glorified person must live in a glorified environment. Hence Scripture must logically end the course of salvation with a glorious new heaven, new earth, and new Jerusalem."
The Bible Knoledge Commentary Vol 2:
"Fundamentally the Corinthians needed a renewal of their minds (Rom. 12:2). They were trying to live their Christian lives on the basis of unsanctified common sense which has self-preservation as its ultimate goal. This kind of life is self-seeking, self-serving, and ultimately self-destructive (Luke 9:24-25).Bakers Encyclopedia of the Bible:
"Salvation involves justification, regeneration, and sanctification in this life. In the life to come it means the glorification of the inner person and the resurrection of the body in glory. But such a glorified person must live in a glorified environment. Hence Scripture must logically end the course of salvation with a glorious new heaven, new earth, and new Jerusalem."
The Bible Knoledge Commentary Vol 2:
1:18. It was that very point which Paul wanted to drive home to the Corinthians. The message of the Cross cuts to the heart of self-centeredness. Paul saw it as central to salvation which he understood to be a process begun by justification, advanced by sanctification, and climaxed in glorification. Paul spoke most pointedly in this verse and in the letter as a whole to the second of these phases, progressive sanctification. "The message of the Cross" is the message of self-renunciation, of obedience to God which may lead as it did in Jesus’ case to humiliation and death, but which ultimately leads not to self-destruction but to preservation (Mark 8:34-35) and exaltation (2 Tim. 2:12; Rev. 22:5). That was the recurring theme in these verses (1 Cor. 1:17-18, 23-24; 2:2, 8), an idea those who are perishing consider foolishness (cf. Luke 9:23-25)". vol 2 pg. 509
A Commentary, critical and explanatory, on the Old and New Testament |JFB:
"
Someone is justified by the blood of Jesus by faith. This does happen at salvation. This is different than sanctification which is what it seems you are mixing justification with. In God's Spirit the believer is already perfect.
"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you" (John 14:20).
If the believer were not completely perfected already in God's Spirit through salvation and justification which allows the union of perfection with imperfection then the Holy Spirit would be united with imperfection and thus be imperfect making God imperfect through their union with God. The Holy Spirit only has perfection within. A believer is fully justified.
The working out and the works are not to get someone saved or justified but to have the believer submit more and more to the Spirit of God. In everything and in every moment the believer is either in faith or in "not faith." Someone can submit parts of themselves to the Spirit of God and not others. For example they can trust God completely and submit completely one area of their lives and lack faith in other areas not submitting those areas to God's will.
The work therefore is not to attain salvation or justification which is what this thread is about, but to allow sanctification to cause full submission by faith to God's Spirit (which is walking perfectly), denying one's own will. When a believer dies, who is not walking perfectly, they are still saved and justified within God's Spirit. If they had to be justified by their own works then none would be saved.
In his notes, Dr. Scofield says that every "believer is given a spiritual enablement and capacity for specific service. No believer is destitute of such gift (vs. 7,11,27), but in their distribution the Spirit acts in free sovereignty (v. 11). There is no room for self-choosing, and Christian service is simply the ministry of such gift as the individual may have received."
I am saying that the gifts are diverse and as God Himself decides to give. And the only gift of these named gifts found in Corinthians that we are particularly urged to seek, is the gift of teaching, that is, to be filled with the Spirit to witness for Jesus and so to win souls. That is what we are told to seek for. The others we are told are divided severally as God wants them given.
Take the gift of healing. Do we think that many people these days have gifts of healing? Do you think many people ought to have the gift of healing? It was never so in Bible times. It is true that Peter and John at the Temple, recorded in the third chapter of Acts, had power to heal a man here, and other people brought the sick so the shadow of Peter might fall upon them and they were healed, but that was not an everyday business with all the Christians. It was not a usual matter then; it is not a usual matter now.
One must remember that Peter, and John were apostles and the apostles had all of the sign gifts in order to validate who exactly they were and to confirm the Word of God which they TAUGHT others.
I can't reconcile in my mind how ''works'' do not lead to faith, to salvation. James 4:8 comes before real faith / 2 Cor 5:17.
The concept 'works based salvation' is clearly erroneous as 1. Drawing closer to God does not = salvation and 2. Shipwrecking salvation doesn't take place because of a lack of works.
I can't help the feeling that Ixoye is being accused of Judaism whilst it is simply an Arminian type view.