Salvation By Faith Alone Verses Works Based Salvation.

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by God calls me Olivia, Apr 21, 2014.

  1. #1 God calls me Olivia, Apr 21, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2014
    This thread is to finish the conversation I was having with Ixoye so as not to disturb another thread. I say that salvation is by faith alone. Ixoye believes that you have to do works to get salvation. Everyone is welcome to join in the conversation although to see the start of the conversation it is in the thread blood moon.

    ixoye_8 said:
    I will ask these questions of you one more time ..

    WHAT CONSTITUTES BEING "REALLY SAVED" ???
    these BELIEVED IN JESUS ..
    these HAD THE HS ..
    these HAD GIFTS OF THE HS ..

    please explain WHY these are NOT "REALLY SAVED" then ..
    awaiting your reply ..
    also WHY do you think YOU are any different then them ???

    PLEASE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS IF YOU CAN ..
    if you cannot, then look to this verse ..
    1Jo 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

    note: see Jesus own words (Luke 10:25-28) on the criteria for the hope of salvation .. it is NOT only belief alone, but obedience in the works of love ..



    God Calls me Olivia wrote:
    "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation" (Romans 10:9).

    This says nothing about doing anything later to get saved a person can believe and confess all at once and is saved.

    "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

    Not of works!!!

    "and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:30-31).
    Believing causes salvation. Nothing about works here.

    And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13).

    Again confession to be saved.

    "Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, "Who is this man who even forgives sins?" 50And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." (Luke 7:50).

    Jesus said himself that it was the womans faith that saved her, not her works.

    Jesus speaking, "Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved" (Luke 8:12).

    Jesus says it is belief that saves.

    "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5).

    It is not of works but because of God's mercy.

    "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved" (Acts 15:11).

    It is God's grace not our works.

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16).

    This doesn't say anything about works, just belief.

    "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16).

    Again it is belief that saves causing the inner baptism of the Holy Spirit.

    And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory (Ephesians 1:13-14).

    This is a guarantee from belief.

    Once a person has believed by faith and confessed they undergo an inner baptism of the Holy Spirit.

    "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Corinthians 5:7).

    The saved person not only has their sins paid for by Jesus, but by faith their sin self is made dead and they are made into a new creating within Christ, so they no longer live unto themselves, they are alive in Christ and His righteousness.

    "On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you" (John 14:20).

    Any acts done by faith in God are righteous acts because they are done from God's righteousness. Any acts done by self out of faith in Christ's righteousness are not of faith because the believer only lives and is saved because they are in Christ so they must do their works from Christ's Spirit. The faith a believer has is that their sin self is dead by Christ's sacrifice and that they are a new creation in Christ so their works are only by Christ's righteousness because they are only alive because they are in Christ.

    "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit" (1 Peter 3:18).

    "Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him" (Romans 6:8).

    "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!" (2 Corinthians 5:17).

    "For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:12).

    A believer is now acting as part of Christ's body (Christ who is the head) so their works are not their own.

    Basically salvation is having faith and confessing that faith that Jesus was tortured and died to pay for our sins, that we died to our own sin self and that we were raised to new life as new creations in Christ being given the Holy Spirit as a promise of our salvation.

    This post is getting long and I have to go out for a little while but I will answer the rest of this post and your other ones when I get home.
    God calls me Olivia, Today at 8:02 AM
     
  2. Olivia, I have him on ignore so I will not see any responses, nor do I wish to know of any. You're having the same argument with him as Paul did with the Galatians... so I steer you there.

    Galatians 3:3 (KJV)
    Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
     
    God calls me Olivia likes this.
  3. I am pretty much in agreement with you. To tell you the truth, I am a little weary of the argument for works needed to be or to stay saved. I guess I am just not able to understand the level of Biblical knowledge on those who argue such nonsense.

    The Holy Spirit is the author of the new birth; He is the creator of the new creation in Christ (2 Corth. 5:17).

    There is in this verse a double contrast between having begun and finished, and between Spirit and flesh.

    The flesh of course denotes the undegenerated, depraved self, all that a person is apart from the transforing power of the Holy Spirit.
    The flesh is incurably evil, corrupt, depraved and can NOT produce a holy influence. It can cultivate, educate, reform and refine, but it is still flesh, still at war against God and of course the Holy Spirit. It is absolutely ridiculous to think that we can descend from the high plane of the Spirit to the low level of the flesh and expect our ceremonial circumcision or ritual observances to accomplish what only the Holy Spirit can do.

    The natural can never ever produce the supernatural!!!!

    We must understand that salvation is what God does for man and not what man does for himself.

    Christ is the Author and the Finisher of our faith and what God begins, only He can finish!

    Why do you think that is so hard for some of our dear friends to comprehend?????
     
    Apologia, Abdicate, Ravindran and 1 other person say Amen and like this.
  4. This thread is to finish the conversation I was having with Ixoye so as not to disturb another thread. I say that salvation is by faith alone. Ixoye believes that you have to do works to get salvation. Everyone is welcome to join in the conversation although to see the start of the conversation it is in the thread blood moon.

    ixoye_8 said:
    I will ask these questions of you one more time ..

    WHAT CONSTITUTES BEING "REALLY SAVED" ???
    these BELIEVED IN JESUS ..
    these HAD THE HS ..
    these HAD GIFTS OF THE HS ..

    please explain WHY these are NOT "REALLY SAVED" then ..
    awaiting your reply ..
    also WHY do you think YOU are any different then them ???


    God calls me Olivia:

    To answer your question about Matthew 25, as I have said before the evidence that the virgins who do not have oil in their lamps are unsaved is that oil represents the Holy Spirit and they do not have the oil.

    "As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him" (1 John 2:27).

    "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you" (John 14:26).

    "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn; to grant to those who mourn in Zion— to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning" (Isaiah 61:1-3).

    Both gladness and anointing are of the Holy Spirit.

    "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law" (Galatians 5:22-23).

    "God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power" (Acts 10:38).

    The virgins without oil in their lamps were unsaved which is shown by them not having oil in their lamps.

    I already explained to you that in the parable of the talents it says, "But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away" (Matthew 25:29).

    There are many who profess to be believers but are not. Yes, again I will say that if you are truly in faith you will do works but those works are from faith and God's righteousness, not your own.

    Please understand that a believer if they have faith will want to obey God, but not for salvation. They want to obey Him because they love Him and know that His will is from perfect love and is always righteous. They don't do the works for salvation. They do the works because they are saved and God's Holy Spirit compels them to do them from God's love.

    The same applies to the last parable in the chapter.

    You want to know why I am different from those in the parables. It is because I am saved and have the Holy Spirit so I live in Christ's righteousness rather than my own works. Any work apart from God's righteousness is no work for it is not of faith and "everything that is not of faith is sin" (Romans 14:23). What is the faith? It is in God and His perfection, Christ's righteousness working through me. As a believer my life is in God's Spirit and to have the Holy Spirit work through me, not to live in my own will and flesh. There is no, none, not any righteousness in myself apart from God.

    Unbeliever's can do works all day but they are still going to hell.
     
  5. I have made my self ABUNDANTLY CLEAR with Jesus' own words ..
    salvation is a hope (if you endure) based on belief/faith AND works/obedience ..

    believers can believe and have the HS, but without obedience/works of love, they are still going to hell ..
     
  6. #6 ixoye_8, Apr 21, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2014
    so why didn't those in Matthew 7 who had the HS NOT do works of the Spirit, which the lack of (even though they had the HS) is what got them condemnation not salvation ???

    indeed .. works/acts of charity ARE done by FREE WILL LOVE for God in obedience .. and THAT is what those believers in Matthew 7 were lacking ..

    disobedience by their FREE WILL to NOT love God enough to obey Him and follow His commandment to Love others as self .. or are you saying the HS failed them because they had NO WORKS/ACTS OF CHARITY ??? .. nor is there a choice of FREE WILL to disobey even IF you have the HS ???
    because either God failed them, or they failed God ..
    but they DID have the HS and received condemnation not salvation AT JUDGEMENT DAY .. as well as those in Hebrews who had the HS and Gifts of the HS and "turned away" ..


    hence OBEDIENCE (which equates into works/acts of charity) ARE needed and are SOLELY on our shoulders to DO ..
    the HS may bring you opportunities and give you resources, but IF YOU DO THEM OR NOT depends on IF YOU LOVE GOD ENOUGH TO OBEY HIM AND DO THEM ..
     
  7. Actually you have not made yourself abundantly clear. Jesus never said salvation is a hope. Which verse is that?
     
  8. IF YOU ENDURE (which He said 3 times) ..
    as well as Paul, Peter and John saying salvation is a hope ..
     
  9. IF YOU ENDURE (which He said 3 times) ..
    as well as Paul, Peter and John saying salvation is a hope ..
     
  10. The Matthew 7 verse you are talking about does not say that the people had the Holy Spirit.

    There are people in the new age movement doing signs today. God condemned psychics in the old testament. Unsaved people can do wonders. Look at Moses and Aaron.

    "Moses and Aaron came to Pharaoh, and thus they did just as the LORD had commanded; and Aaron threw his staff down before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent. 11Then Pharaoh also called for the wise men and the sorcerers, and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret arts. 12For each one threw down his staff and they turned into serpents" (Exodus 7:11).

    There are unsaved that can do miracles. There are also false prophets. You have no proof that these people were saved. False prophets exalt the name of Jesus for their own evil, not for God. God tells them he never knew them because they were never saved. If they had been saved he would have said that He doesn't know them anymore.

    You do have free will to disobey God even when saved, but God doesn't make you unsaved because you disobey him. If someone is truly His he will teach them to change and sometimes discipline them, but He won't disown them.

    You continually deny all the verses about salvation being by faith alone. Find me one verse that says a form of the word salvation and also says that works are what causes salvation. There are none.
     
  11. and yes .. I have made myself abundantly clear that salvation is a matter of belief and obedience .. I have reiterated this close to 30 times in the last couple months ..
     
  12. I already explained this in the other post. This is endurance in faith, not works.

    Find me one verse that says a form of the word salvation and also says that works are what causes salvation. There are none.
     
  13. Not with any verses that say salvation is by works. You have none.
     
  14. really ???
    than by what power did they cast out demons prophesy and heal (which are enumerated by Paul as gifts of the HS) ..
     
  15. so Paul is contradicting himself or you must admit salvation IS both belief and obedience (in which Jesus said works/acts of charity equated to) ..

    Heb 5:9
    And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
     
  16. I already just answered this, secret arts. Also, God gave people dominion over all things (Adam and Eve). If someone believes they still have power over things (that has nothing to do with them being saved) but they aren't saved unless they believe in what Christ did for them.
     
  17. secret arts NOT an answer ..
    Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
     
  18. Jesus was already always perfect. Jesus never sinned. Jesus could not die on the cross for us unless he was always perfect. The suffering of Jesus shows He was perfect.

    Obeying him is having faith in him and believing on Him. This verse says nothing about works which is what I asked for. We know the obedience is having faith and believing because all the other verses on salvation say it is by faith.

    Here is another verse about believing being the obedience.

    "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them" (John 3:36).
     
  19. here you go ..
    Heb 5:9
    And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
     
  20. obedience is NOT belief ..
    James clears that up ..
    demons have belief and shudder ..
     

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