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Romans III

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by th1bill, Oct 23, 2010.


Is the church today the New Israel?

Poll closed Oct 30, 2010.
  1. Yes

    0 vote(s)
  2. No

    2 vote(s)
  1. Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision?
    Rom 3:2 Much every way: first of all, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God.

    Here is a reasonable question, then (in the first century) and now. The question is almost rhetorical in nature. There were then, just as there are now, Jewish Believers. Just as God had promised Abraham the Jewish Believer was meant to be a blessing from God to the whole world. Please do not jump the gun on my assertion about the Jewish Believers, most of you will, so, I'll explain. Being a Jew involves two different aspects of life;
    1.the nationality
    2.the religion.
    We are fortunate in more ways than one with our Jewish friends. The very first Christians were Jewish, the most notable of whom was Saul of Tarsus, later renamed Paul, Disciple of Jesus. In addition to these forerunners there are, today, Christian Rabbis and Jewish Christians seated in their churches. We have the good fortune of being able to ask them questions concerning the traditions and the feast days of celebration and learning from them.

    Rom 3:3 For what if some were without faith? shall their want of faith make of none effect the faithfulness of God?
    Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be found true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy words, And mightest prevail when thou comest into judgment.

    I read many postings, published on the Web and have encountered many individuals that claim to be the New Israel because they contend that God, the Father, has washed His hands of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but this is not, nor shall it ever be true. Folks are busy, today, building boxes to put God into and this is not only an exercise in futility, it heresy! No “man” is able to even understand God, let alone define the limits of God, there are no limits, god is inexhaustible! And for God to abandon the descendants of Jacob/Israel is for God to become a liar and that will never be! In Due. 7:9 we see that God promised to be faithful to His Chosen People for a thousand generations. If we use a conservative number, say 25 years, for a generation that is twenty-five thousand years. From studying the scriptures we find that the Earth will only stand for about seven thousand years before God burns it up and recreates it. For this reason it makes perfect sense to conclude that God meant forever. No matter that some, yes, even most turn away, god has always had a remnant.

    Rom 3:5 But if our righteousness commendeth the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who visiteth with wrath? (I speak after the manner of men.)
    Rom 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

    We must always be careful when we read the Word of God and we need to cease redefining the terms that are clearly expressed and defined by example in the Bible. i.e. I am oft barked at for the lack of love in some of my messages and mt replies to other posters. I try to remember what I have learned in these years of guided study of the Bible. God loves everyone of the persons that He will individually judge and sentence to Eternity in the Lake of Fire. In like manor God made me an Evangelical Teacher and when I rebuke a person and suggest that they do a Spiritual inventory, it isn't because I hate or dislike them, it is out of love for them that I seek to keep them from digging that hole so deep that they will never climb out.

    Righteous Judgment feels and seems cruel, only, to the unstudied and the unwilling. We must be careful in this because we can fool people but you may rest assured that God not only sees and hears, He knows the real reason buried inside our hearts. The next time a person slings Matt. 7:1 at you, pull out your Bible and read the entire chapter or, even better, all of the Sermon on the Mount.

    Rom 3:7 But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?
    Rom 3:8 and why not (as we are slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say), Let us do evil, that good may come? whose condemnation is just.
    Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
    Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
    Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;
    Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not, so much as one:
    Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; With their tongues they have used deceit: The poison of asps is under their lips:
    Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
    Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
    Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:

    We must never forget the thrust of Chapter three, only God is righteous and for that reason we are commanded to put on the Full Armor of God. (Eph. 6:11-18 & Acts 17:11) If we are faithful to do this one thing until the day we transition over into Heaven, we will be found to be a faithful servant of God. By misreading, misteaching and misunderstanding it has become a popular concept to study until we know the Word and I tell you that this is not true. We are admonished to study, read, the Word of God as the Bereans did, daily! Today, I have been blessed with a computer and an Internet connection. When I can no longer see, should I live that long, I have two CDs of mp3 files that I have burned and can put them into my computer or CD Player and still hear the Word of God as others read it to me. We are, simply put, unable to live a holy life except that we, actively seek after the Holy Spirit.

    (a foot note: The truth of man is told by what he or she does when they are alone! What do I mean? When I google a topic there is no-one to watch me. If I search for a Bible reference I will receive the same results whether I use a lower case or an upper case letter in my search. Out of reverence for my LORD I always use the upper-case g when spelling God and I will type everything else, save Bible, in lower-case. Who cares, God does! Who's to know, God does1)

    Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
    Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:
    Rom 3:20 because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.
    Rom 3:21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
    Rom 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;

    Here, once more, we see the thrust of Chapter three expressed (v:10) in v:23. For a man that prefers the Roman Road method of guiding lost souls to the foot of the cross, these are fundamental passages (vss.10 & 23) to be built upon. We, everyone of us was born in and were, before our salvation experience, rooted in sin. As it is expressed here, it is important that we remember that we, the Church Body, are nothing more than a group of sinners, gathered together to lift up and to strengthen each other as God has forgiven us and wishes to forgive everyone.

    Rom 3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    Rom 3:25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;
    Rom 3:26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.

    Propitiation... our atoning sacrifice. Jesus, the Son of God went to the cross He did not deserve, that I might be excused from the cross that I do, not did, deserve.

    Rom 3:27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith.

    In Hebrews 11 we see that Abrahan had faith and that it was reckoned to him Justification, Imputed Righteousness.

    Rom 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
    Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also:
    Rom 3:30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
    Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.

    This last verse is most often ignored. Jesus, in the Gospel Accounts promised us that not a single stroke of the Law, a.k.a. Mosaic Law, would ever pas away and here we see that Paul is stressing the point that we, Christians, establish the Law. When I read through the Law, all six hundred and thirteen of them, I see the perfect word picture of the only True and Loving God.
  2. Thus, the natural man is found to be in total depravity. When we agree that we are as this passage suggest and find ourselves to be guilty in the sight of a Holy God, only then are ready to ask for Mercy not Justice. Justice would mean our eternal distruction. It is Great to have an awesome God Who ask, gives and requires only one thing from and to us:

    Matthew 9:13. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Good Day and God Bless
  3. Referring to Romans 3:9-17

    Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
    Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
    Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;
    Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not, so much as one:
    Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; With their tongues they have used deceit: The poison of asps is under their lips:
    Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
    Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
    Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:

    I'm not sure that Paul is saying all of us ("natural man") are totally depraved.

    In Romans 3:10-12 Paul is quoting Psalm 14:1-3 and Psalm 53:1-3 and both of those texts refer specifically to unbelievers (not mankind in general).

    In Romans 3:13 Paul is quoting Psalm 5:9 and Psalm 140:3, but an earlier verse in the fifth Psalm refers specifically to the "enemies" of believers (who I would assume are unbelievers) . Similarly, in Psalm 140, an earlier verse makes it clear the reference is to "violent men ... who stir up wars continually", not regular people like you and me.

    In Romans 3:14 Paul is quoting Psalm 10:7, but Psalm 10:4 indicates that the reference is once again to unbelievers - those who say, "There is no God."

    In Romans 3:15-17 Paul is quoting Isaiah 59:7-8 where the prophet (according to Isaiah 58:13-14) is referring to sabbath breakers.

    Paul went to great pains in Romans 3:9-17 to quote OT texts aimed specifically at unbelievers, so I don't think his words can be used to reinforce the idea that "the natural man is found to be in total depravity."
  4. I am sure, but I am not sure we have the same definition of the natural man.

    The natural man by nature is the seed of Adam, born into sin. The natural man is the unregenerate man, the state of man prior to the new birth, the unsaved man. Even when we are save by grace we still have the seed of sin within; however, the regenerated man have a new Spirit to guide him/her. The natural man must be put to death for such is the consequence of sin.

    1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Paul expressed the struggle between the old/natural and new/spiritual/ in the following passage. All Christians encounters this on a daily basis. When we are Glorified the old/natural man will be put to death.

    Romans 7:14-25. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    Jesus came only to save sinners/the deprave. Although all are deprave and sinners, if we chose to believe not, we have no reason to seek mercy. Such was to case for the Pharasees... let this not be our fate.

    Matthew 18:11. For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

    1 Timothy 1:15. This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

    Good Day and God Bless
  5. Referring to your first sentence in Reply #2,

    Are you saying that I am "totally depraved" ?

    Totally depraved !
  6. Since you failed to quote the portion of the post you are disturbed by I might be wrong is assuming that you are addressing me but I'll just assume and go ahead.

    If you lack the Salvation experience, yes! And if you mean to be asking were you totally depraved before you were justified, yes, you were under the jurisdiction of the 613 laws of the Mosaic Law and the breaking of any single law was to have broken them all.

    The measure of a man is God and the perfect Word Illustration (measuring stick) is the Law. Any person that broke the Law was depraved and under Eternal Death Sentence.

    I don't and I didn't mean to unnerve you but it is clearly taught in the scriptures that a Liar is just as dead to God as a Rapist or a Murderer. I hope this helps and may God bless you.
  7. Snaggelefritz, I assume you are referring to my post.

    We who are in Christ and yet under the sun are just sinners saved by Grace. We still have the sinful nature within. The sinful nature is DEPRAVE. We who are save by Grace have a new Spirit, which guides us to walking in righteousness, but the sinful nature still remains. We all are bad and it is only God who keeps any man (saved or unsaved) from being as bad as they can be. So when you are anyone see a murderer, before you pass final judgment, remember the grace, which has been extended to you…

    1 Corinthians 4:7. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

    …Except for the grace of God, there go I…

    To answer your question: The flesh that still reside in you, me and every man is deprave. It is God and God alone the keep us from being as bad as we can be.

    David, a man after God’s own heart committed an act of depravity (2 Samuel 11). This was an act of the deprave flesh that resided within him. So who really make us to be different, it is God and God alone. God will one day deliver those he saved from their deprave flesh.

    1 Corinthians 15:50-52. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    1 John 3:2. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    I agree with Paul….

    Romans 7:24-25. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    ;)God loves the deprave/sinner who see their depravity and seeks mercy....

    Good Day and God Bless
  8. Thanks. I did mention that I was referring to the first sentence in Reply #2 (written by illinijag)
  9. I'm not sure if that is a yes or a no.

    You say that "David...committed an act of depravity", so I guess he can be described as depraved, but can we go as far as saying he was totally depraved? Surely he had some good points?

    You only have my word for this, but I can assure you that unlike David, I have committed no act of depravity and suggesting that I (and everyone else) is totally depraved seems rather harsh.

    You also quote Paul who describes himself as a wretched man, which is not quite the same as totally depraved - or do you think it is?

    I won't bother to push this point any further because it seems that we have different ways of interpreting bible texts, but I must tell you that this is the first time anyone has ever said (or perhaps your were only implying) that I (and others) are totally depraved. I am not happy with that description.
  10. I'm going to be a nosy-body and butt in here. I believe, may be wrong, that I have already answered this point for someone else. (It might have been on another forum.) The measuring stick that is given in the Bible for us to measure ourselves against for our Spiritual Condition is the 613 Mosaic Laws. In the Law we find the perfect word picture of God and anything less than the righteousness of God is total depravity and subject to Eternity in the Abyss. Remember, we are not under the Law today but as long as a man is not saved he is. And when you break any one of the Laws you have broken the Law, all of it. Every man, by God's standard is depraved.
  11. Thanks for your question, as a Christian it is our duty to explain any position we take, not only in ours words but with Biblical support (1 Peter 3:15).

    Again, To answer your question: The flesh that still reside in you, me and every man is deprave. It is God and God alone the keep us from being as bad as we can be.

    True righteousness is righteousness relative to God's Righteousness, not another man's righteousness. That also includes DAVID, JOB, DANIEL OR ANY MAN. Any comparison of man against man is a self-righteousness, God will accept only His righteousness found in the Savior He provides. Again, Man (i.e. the nature of man/Man's flesh) is totaly depraved. The saved man has within him/her a new nature, this nature in not depraved but the old nature that still resides is totally depraved.

    Below are some other scriptures which support Romans 3:9-17 and the fact that man is totally deprave:

    Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).

    Deprave sounds bad but until we see this to be who we are; raise the white flag surrender; and know that there is nothing in us that is righteous before a Holy God; then and only then WILL WE SEEK MERCY..the beauty of all this is that Mercy is the only thing God will have from us. God even provide the Mercy.

    Matthew 5:7. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

    Matthew 9:13.

    But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Mathhew 12:7.

    But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

    There are many more passages on mercy, if you do a search of it in the New Testament this will provide much insight as to how God deals with man.

    Good Day and God Bless
  12. Let me put it this way: I am not totally depraved and neither are any of my friends. Perhaps we are defining the words in different ways.

    illinijag and th1bill, what are the most depraved acts you have ever committed? Your answers will give me a clue about the way in which you are defining the word.
  13. Snagglefritz,
    My most depraved acts is between me and God. God only told us to confess our faults not sin before man.
    James 5:16. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

    Relative to a Holy God we are all depraved. Comparing my sins to another man sin is defining righteousness relative to man, such is Self-Righteousness. It is not the fact that man commits sin but man has the seed/heart to sin. Jesus stated it better:

    Matthew 5: 28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

    Matthew 5:21-22. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

    Thus, those who even lust ...have committed adultery or fornication. Those who get angry are in danger of judgment. All these things are the seed of sin, which can manifest into an outward sin. The potential to sin is unacceptable to a Holy God; it is God and God alone who restrain man by all His given means.

    Such is man:

    Jeremiah 17: 9. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

    Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    Psalms 53:2-3 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

    I don't doubt that you have good friend as man may define good. However, the standard by which God will judge far exceed our relative standard. God standard is PERFECTION; we can only have that in Christ. Remember, there were a groups among men (the scribes and Pharisees) which portrayed a perfect outward righteousness, this is what Jesus said about their righteousness:

    Matthew 5:20. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Don't focus on the quanity of sins, such mean little to God concerning salvation. God has given pardon to all men who have found their righteousness in the REDEEMER God has provided.

    Consider this: Two of the worst kings in the Old Testament, Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 4:34-37) and Manasseh (2 Chronicles 33:9-20), will enter into God's Kingdom; yet many of our good friends, scribes and Pharisees will not enter due to their self-righteousness (not the righteousness of Christ).

    Good Day and God Bless
    Rumely likes this.
  14. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Maybe I just hang around with a nicer crowd of people, but I don't know anyone who is depraved.
  15. Not intending to stir the pot, here, but do you also object to the phrase " ...a wretch like me..." in the song Amazing Grace? Because I see it as the same concept as that meant by the phrase "total depravity of man." In other words, depravity is not, in this case, restricted to certain specific acts that we, even on a human scale, see as particularly offensive and brutish.
  16. Rumely, I can see what you are getting at, but redefining "total depravity" as "wretch" still doesn't work for me because the dictionary definition for "wretch" is,

    1: a miserable person : one who is profoundly unhappy or in great misfortune
    2: a base, despicable, or vile person

    I am not profoundly unhappy, nor in great misfortune, neither am I a base, despicable, or vile person, so the word "wretch" does not really apply to me (nor to most people I know). On the other hand, when the word is used in a song like Amazing Grace, I just accept it, and happily sing along - I acknowledge the author's right to use some "poetic license".

    Interestingly, when I turned to the dictionary for a definition of "wretch" I noticed that a list of synonyms included "scallywag" and "scamp" and they are the words I would prefer to use. I may be a bit of a scamp sometimes, but I am not a wretch (as defined in the dictionary) and I am not depraved. Those words carry too much emotional baggage for my liking and I will not accept them as valid descriptions of me or my friends.

    Rumely, it may be that you are correct and I am wrong, but this is where I have drawn a line - and I don't expect to change my attitude any time soon. As I said in an earlier post, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this subject.

    I can see where it may be possible to make generalizations regarding the "total depravity of man", but it is far too harsh a word to be applied to an individual. Would you regard your little brother or your mother as "totally depraved"? Even if you did, would you be rude enough to tell them so? My guess is that you don't think of them in that way - and neither do I.
  17. Hmmm,

    Oxford English Dictionary -
    Sounds about right.

    So hands up all those here whose depth of sin and moral corruption did NOT cost the life of Jesus to pay for it??

    Who here will accept a lesser share of the gift of life in Christ because their sin was not as great as those of others??

    In Christ
    Rumely likes this.
  18. My greatest fear is that if Man does not see himself in this manner (deprave), he will not see a true need for Christ. We will never raise our white flag of surrender if we think there is hope or strength within. The whole counsel of God (The Bible) clearly states that salvation is given to those who rely only on God strength and not their own “LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST - Ephesians 2:9”.

    Psalms 34:18. The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

    Psalms 51:17. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

    Just like Rahab and her family (Joshua 2), eight years ago I raised my white flag of surrender and committed Treason against the ruler of my sin-filled life. Now, He who was once my enemy is now my Redeemer.

    The Crimson (deep red) thread raised by Rahad and her family reflects the tremendous cost paid to redeem all....The Precious Blood of Christ.

    Good Day and God Bless

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