Romans 7, Part Two

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Noblemen, Jul 13, 2015.

  1. The mind can be changed but the sin nature cannot be changed even when the mind becomes compatible with the sin nature. Because the nature cannot be changed is why Romans 6:6 states that the old man sin nature was destroyed and the new nature replaced it. The ultimate end is: "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, And bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" Romans 7:23. At various times the mind ultimately succumbs to the control of the inborn sin-nature to those who were under the law as indicated by the word captivity which is bondage. The mind is held in captivity to the sin nature is the ultimate end of all who have not the "Christ in you" nature both in them.

    The individual can allow the mind to be compatible with the sin nature and when this happens it is known as a reprobate mind. A reprobate mind is one that does not want to retain God it's knowledge. "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient," Romans 1:28 A reprobate mind and the sin nature resident within mankind are totally compatible with each other. Those under the law had to maintain a constant vigil to keep this from happening. This was a mind struggle of the worst case.

    Most of Christianity preach a gospel that is nothing more that attempt to change the nature of individual. Of course this is a futile attempt because they do not know that the sin nature will pretend to be dead or it will pretend to change etc. The truth is nature cannot be changed because but it can be destroyed or birthed. "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit," John 3:6.

    The first three verses establish the point that a union exist between the soul/mind and sin-nature Analogy to the marriage in the first three verses that only death could dissolve. Romans chapter 6 describes how the born-again believer is joined unto Christ.

    The union between the believer in Christ is achieved through the work of the cross. The death of the sin nature (first husband) allows the believer to legally be joined to the resurrected Lord.
    This simply means that the former union between the soul/mind and sin-nature was dissolved through the death of Christ on the cross. Christ's death on the cross absolutely did once and forever destroy the sin-nature (old man) of Romans 6:6.
    Cturtle and Complete say Amen and like this.
  2. Romans 7:23........
    "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

    What is that "another law" Paul is talking about??????

    Romans 7:24 tells us....................
    " and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

    You do not get rid of the old nature of sin when we are saved. The truth then is that there is NO power in our new nature.

    Paul said..."I see a different law" which is the enmity of our old nature against God. That is exactly why Paul called out to God in the very next verse.................

    Romans 7:24.....
    "O wreched man that I am! Who shall deliever me from the body of this death"?

    This is a saved man saying these words, an apostle of Jesus. He is helpless and defeated just as was old Jacob when he was wrestled down.
    Big Moose likes this.
  3. And to add, the plethora of admonishments from Paul, Peter, John and James to steer clear of walking in the flesh. Paul also describes the war between the carnal body vs. the Spirit. The exposition of this is in Galatians 5:13 to the end of the chapter.
    As always, good stuff Major.
    Complete likes this.
  4. Agreed Moose! And as always, thanks.
  5. Major you might want to view this in a different light here.
    We are NOT helpless or Defeated UNLESS we starve the Spirit man and feed the flesh.
    To say this is bringing Christ down to adams level and that is NOT ever going to happen.

    How about this - Paul was talking to folks on their level. Teaching them about the battle of the mind and flesh and so forth. Spirit man vs the flesh. Being all things to all people.

    We are taught this - by His written word - through His written word
    Romans 12:2 ....

    And be not conformed to this world; but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind that ye may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God
    (( Get His word in you each and every day and speak His word each and every day ))

    2 Corinthians 10:4-5
    4... For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to pulling down strong holds
    5... Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.
    (( Begin to practice the words you speak and thoughts you think for our thoughts and words to control how we act or react and believe. Our own words do more do influence our thinking then most of everything else. ))

    Galatians 5:16
    This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh
    (( The more you do the first two the more you will begin to walk in the Spirit and you will be amazed to say the least. ))

    All done through the Grace of God - ( 2 Corinthians 9:8 ) who maketh all grace abound to me.

    The attitude of there is no hope for we will always be helpless and defeated is pure rubish.
    If the Jesus said He set us free from this then we truly can be free from it - that is if you believe His word and apply it.

    God Bless Major
    Cturtle, Complete and Noblemen says Amen and like this.
  6. Jim.....You said:
    "The attitude of there is no hope for we will always be helpless and defeated is pure rubish."

    I on the other hand posted Romans 7:24 which records Paul as saying..........
    Romans 7:24.....
    "O wreched man that I am! Who shall deliever me from the body of this death"?
    Then I said.......
    "This is a saved man saying these words, an apostle of Jesus. He is helpless and defeated just as was old Jacob when he was wrestled down."

    CONTEXT Jim. It was a "comparitive" comment that says IF Paul had a problem with sin as an apostle who wrote 2/3 of the New Test. then how can we declare that the sin nature does not exist in us today.

    You see Jim, Paul cries out against his body, his flesh which is the instrument whereby he is led captive to the law of sin and death. Back in Romans 6:6 Paul called the body............
    "the body of sin", and now he calls it the "body of death".

    That sin nature is an inbred tendancy to sin and it warps and distorts the human personality.
    I am sad that you and others are unable to grasp that fact. You see, human nature was twisted completly out of shape after the Fall in Eden. That fallen nature which is warped and twisted, with its capacity and passion for every wat except God's way ALWAYS REMAINS WITH US.

    What God did IN Christ was to add a "New Narure". Those who believe are MADE ALIVE in Christ with a new capacity for goodness which we did not have before. NOW we at last have both the desire and capacity to respond in a positive to God. BUT..........those two natures are at war within each one of us.

    So now in one person there are two capacities. One is the want to do good and the other is to want to do eveil. That is why Paul said in Romans 7:15-19...........
    "For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but SIN that dwells in me."

    My dear brother, the body is the seat of sin and death. You and I and everyone else have had the very same experiences. We all have tried to do what is good. We all have tried to keep what we saw as good rules and we all have known the shame and agony of failure.

    Read the words yourself my brother, carefully. Paul SAID, not me but the apostle Paul......
    the sin nature had retained enough control over him to make it plain that no matter how hard he tried to do good, he fell way short of the holiness and goodness that the Law of God revealed to him.
    Complete, Noblemen and Big Moose says Amen and like this.

  7. Major Greetings,
    Yes Paul speaks and shares about this war in us. That does not say it is always incontrol nor that we will always fall prey to it.

    When one claims that we can not over come this sin nature is saying that what the first adam did is stronger then what the second adam ( Christ ) did. That is religious thinking and spoken from those who have not yet learned their authority in Christ.

    Notice I have not said we as believers wont miss the mark or make a mistake - we run right to Grace and get right back up and try again. There is a huge difference between this and thinking that we will always be slaves to this sin nature.

    The more Christ you have in you and the more word of God you have in you and the more you truly grasp this - then the smaller the sin/flesh battle against the spirit man you will find.

    Paul is teaching NEW believers and Paul is showing us that we all have this situation in us HOWEVER Brother when we include what Jesus taught us and so forth we will find that we are no longer slaves to this and can rise above this battle..

    It wont happen just because you are born again. Just like everything else in His written word we must do our part and when we do - it is His word that flows - it is His ways that we walk and it is the flesh that takes a back seat.

    My entire point is simply this - to say we will not ever be able to rise above this is not true and limits God or Christ Jesus to what the first adam ( man ) did and that simply aint never gonna happen. 

    God Bless My Friend
    Have a wonderful day
    Cturtle, Complete and Noblemen says Amen and like this.
  8. I hear you Jim and I wish with all of my heart that you were correct. However I must disagree with your thinking.

    We don’t lose our sin nature once we receive Christ. What I say to you is what the Bible says to us. You are welcome to make it your own thinking but I am unable to do that. It is what is and the Bible says that sin remains in us and that a struggle with that old nature will continue as long as we are in this world.

    That is exactly what Paul bemoaned his own personal struggle in Romans 7:15–20. But I am also agree with you because we do have help in the battle—divine help. The Spirit of God takes up residence in each believer and supplies the power we need to overcome the pull of the sin nature within us. “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God” as told to us in 1 John 3:9.

    Now as for getting a little more of Jesus or as you stated.........
    "The more Christ you have in you and the more word of God you have in you and the more you truly grasp this - then the smaller the sin/flesh battle against the spirit man you will find."

    Just so we are on the same page, what is the Scripture that is the basis for your comment?

    My understanding is that we get all that God in Christ has to offer salvationally speaking. Why would the Lord hold anything back from those who accept Christ. The fact that God has placed us ‘in Christ’ and has crucified our old man in Him doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist anymore in us. Death, as we both know and understand means separation. When we die physically it is a separation of our soul/spirit from our body. The 2nd death mentioned in Revelation is eternal separation from God. The truth of Romans 6 is that we have been separated from the POWER of the sinful nature because of our union with Christ in His death and resurrection.
  9. Amen Jim, the sin-nat
    Amen Jim, the sin-nature was crucified "in Christ" on the cross. Thats what died, "all in Adam." It is a mind thing now. To those that are not able to divide body, soul and spirit yet it is greek. We are totally, competely, absolutely complete in spirit " he that is joined to the lord is one spirit" 1st Cor. 6:17.

    Religion can not preach this because it needs to always be fixing you to make it work and have you working to get cleaned up, vicious cycle. Paul would say they are the enemies of the cross. Untill a believer has had enough they will walk in the darkness of religion and in my opinion is one of the greatest evils heaped upon mankind, satan inspired and satan led.
    Cturtle, Complete and Fish Catcher Jim says Amen and like this.
  10. So then, your conclusion is that the believer has but one nature, the new nature, because you are saying that the believer is a new man (new man=new nature).

    Then the only way possible to look at this is that we don't have an old man anymore- old nature. The only thing that can possibly mean is that believers "do not have an old nature anymore." This is his one nature position.

    Of course, positionally this is true of every believer in Christ because in Colossians 3:9 we see Paul saying to us.....
    "seeing ye have put off the old man with his deeds".

    Now when considering the N.T. teaching on the "old man/new man", we all need to be very careful to to make a clear distinction between a believer's standing and state, his position and his actual condition. Even though the old man and his deeds have been put off positionally according to Col. 3:9 , yet experientially this is not always so and that is why believers are told to "put off" anger, wrath, malice, according to Col. 3:8.

    What you are saying and is being touted here in these threads is that the "old man" or "old self" or "old sin nature" is no longer existent in the believer at all. That is a dangerous position which will ultimately lead to the un-Scriptural teaching of "Sinless perfection".

    THINK!!! If believers need to put off the old man, then why does Colossians 3:9 teach that believers have already put off the old man? Logical reasoning that you and Jim are advocating then follows:
    The OLD MAN-SIN has been CRUCIFIED; and therefore the OLD MAN-SIN IS GONE. There is no more OLD MAN OF SIN!

    Let's examine this logic in light of other passages which speak of CRUCIFIXION.

    Galatians 5:24 teaches that the FLESH has been CRUCIFIED. THINK!!!
    Does this mean that the FLESH is GONE and that the FLESH is no more? Obviously we would not say this because we know that the believer still struggles with the flesh. I would challenge all of you to PROVE that is NOT the case!!!!!

    Galatians 6:14 teaches that the WORLD has been CRUCIFIED! THINK!!!
    Does this mean that the world is gone and that there is no more world? Do you really want to have that conversation???

    In Galatians 2:20 the Scripture teaches that the SINNER has been CRUCIFIED!
    Paul said, "I have been CRUCIFIED with Christ." Does this mean that the sinner is no more and is gone? Obviously not.

    I am trying to showw all of you that is wrong to assume that the crucifixion of the old man means that the old man has been eradicated. Again, THINK!!! Sin must have a SOURCE.

    Dr. Scofield once has well said: "Sin in the lost, and sin in the saved, has the life of a man as Its source, the first Adam. If you have no Adam, you have no sin; if you have sin, you have its source, the old man, the fleshly Adam! You cannot eradicate the source, the man, and still have 'remaining sin,' or 'the old grave clothes.' Sin must have its source, i.e. Adam the first".
    Complete likes this.

  11. Call it what you will Major but you as a believer do not have a sin nature, if that were so Christ died invane, you know thats not so. Its a MIND thing now, trained by the oldman ( sin nature ) so it looks real Similar. I understand this is hard for believers to divide because we are not being taught or is it being preached. I know you are being led by the Spirit but you have to trust Him he will not give you a stone, put your doctrines on a self and give Him a chance to real present truth to you my brother.
  12. My dear brother, I am calling it nothing whatsoever. What I am doing is asking you to read the Scriptures and agree with them, certainly not ME!

    Just so that we are clear on this, I agree completely that the Christian is not primarily a "sinner". In other words he is not to be characterized by and ruled by sin. We as believers are called to walk in the light as Christ is in the light as seen in 1 John 1:7, to live victoriously in the power of the Holy Spirit, and to live as saints and children of our heavenly Father.

    Without a doubt we are called to be partakers of the divine nature, in other words, to become Christ-like. Yet, I believe the words of Scripture which tell us that the old nature stays with us until God calls us home to heaven or until Jesus returns, whichever comes first; therefore, we must know how to win the battle against sin and this lingering propensity to sin.

    In Romans 6:19; 7:5, 18, 25, and 13 times in the first 13 verses of Romans 8 we see that Paul teaches us that the fallen human nature is inherently rebellious against God. We all have inherited this nature from Adam and, unfortunately, it was not eradicated when we became Christians. Here is the key IMO and it is that the Old Nature is still within us, but we are no longer forced to follow what and where it leads us.

    When we study Romans 8, we can see that now have the Holy Spirit within us who is strong enough to keep the flesh from getting the upper hand. What kinds of things does the flesh cause us to do?

    Gal. 5:19-21
    "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like."

    Are you really going to try and argue with Paul who wrote to Christians in Galatia warning them about what the sin nature in them would lead them to do????? Do you really believe that YOU are not confronted with exactly those things that Paul spoke to in the above verse???? You do not know of any Christians who have never given in to those acts and or thoughts???? COME ON!!!!

    My dear brother, you guys are not in conflict with me but the Bible itself. Instead of wondering about the Holy Spirit in me and suggesting that I put the doctrines of God on a shelf (I assume that means to ignore them) I suggest that you put some time into study and actually speak to the Bible verses posted and not to me personally.
    Big Moose likes this.
  13. Major Hello,
    I see the conflict in this topic between you and I and others.
    You are taking the fact that ths sin nature born in man is always there and I am saying that we are not slaves to it or have to yield to this olod sin nature.

    You are correct when you say it is in us but not 100 percent correct at all to say we will always be slaves to it. We can rise above it. Maybe not all but that is only because they do not know they can or lack the discipline to do so.

    God Bless
    Cturtle and Complete say Amen and like this.
  14. Im saying the sin nature is 100% removed, killed at the cross. When Christ died you died and it is a mind deal now. First mixing all scripture together like it is all written to you is a huge road block. Secondly they must be rightly divided to know who God was writing to and talking to In a dispensation. Each dispensation has its own message or gospel. We are in pure Grace it has its own message can't mix old stuff with the new stuff itis rank error.
    Complete likes this.
  15. Actually Jim there is NO conflict at all. I for one am just having a wonderful conversation about a Bible doctrine. No more and no less. I would encourage you to explain your understanding of the Bible verses posted instead of focusing on me. What say we get away from what we think or what we like and stick instead to the Scriptures.

    Actually, did you read comment #12 where I confirmed to you ...........
    "Just so that we are clear on this, I agree completely that the Christian is not primarily a "sinner". In other words he is not to be characterized by and ruled by sin. We as believers are called to walk in the light as Christ is in the light as seen in 1 John 1:7, to live victoriously in the power of the Holy Spirit, and to live as saints and children of our heavenly Father.

    Now it has nothing to do with what I say is correct. However it is exactly what the Bible says is correct. That is why I have posted so many Scriptures so that everyone can focus on the Scriptures and NOT what I say. Again, I say that because I am not authority, only someone who reads and accepts the Bible as it is written for men.

    You see Jim, it is the sin nature that is the principle in man that makes him rebellious against God. When we speak of the sin nature, we refer to the fact that we have a natural inclination to sin; given the choice to do God’s will or our own, we will naturally choose to do our own thing.

    Proof of the sin nature abounds. No one has to teach a child to lie or be selfish; rather, we go to great lengths to teach children to tell the truth and put others first. Sinful behavior comes naturally for all of us because we are all sinners. The evening news is filled with tragic examples of mankind acting badly. Wherever people are, there is trouble. IF you accept the thought that the sin nature of man is eradicated at salvation then ultimately you will accept the false teaching of "Sinless Perfection". It is the only conclusion.

    Charles Spurgeon said..............
    “As the salt flavors every drop in the Atlantic, so does sin affect every atom of our nature. It is so sadly there, so abundantly there, that if you cannot detect it, you are deceived.”

    The Bible explains the reason for the trouble. Humanity is sinful, not just in theory or in practice but by nature. Sin is part of the very fiber of our being; the stain runs deep—it’s in the warp and woof of our souls.

    The Bible speaks of “sinful flesh” in Romans 8:3. ........
    "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh".

    It’s our “earthly nature” that produces the list of sins as seen in Colossians 3:5............
    "Mortify (Put Off) therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry".

    And Romans 6:6 speaks of “the body ruled by sin.”
    "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

    And of course there is this Bible truth in Galatians 5:16-17...............
    "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

    The flesh-and-blood existence we lead on this earth is shaped by our sinful, corrupt nature. Jim, It would be helpful to all if you spoke to those Scriptures instead of Me. I would be interested in your interpretation of those verses.
    Noblemen likes this.
  16. Major all these scriptures do explain about ths sin nature and I agree but whast they dont say is that we can not rise above them. Another words not allowing this old nature to rule our lives.

    What scriptures do you need that has not already been posted ?
    Renew the mind - take every thought captive - learn to walk in the spirit and not the flesh.
    When one has done this to the point that they are not thinking with their own human reasoning but with the word of God - How can this sin nature still rule or be a controlling factor ?

    The Blood of Christ redeemed us of this sin nature - This means we can get to the place where it is not a battle any more - it takes discipline and a solid choice.

    To say anything less then this is simply saying what the first adam did ( brought forth sin )
    is stronger then what the second adam Christ did through His blood.
    Major that can not ever be true.

    When a born again believer walks around under the weight of sin then they have been fitted with a yoke of sin and condemnation once again that does not fit them nor belong to them. Christ Jesus destroyed that yoke on the cross.

    Agasin the scriptures you wrote say what you say they do to a point - they DO NOT SAY we have to stay under the control of nor that we can not rise above this.
    God Bless My Brother
    Cturtle and Noblemen say Amen and like this.
  17. Hi there,

    Reading through this thread, I am in the position of agreeing with all of you!! o_O I feel that you are at cross purposes, there is little difference between you.

    For we do have both an old and new nature. However, Praise God! we, like Paul, know that the answer is in Christ Jesus our Lord. We are to reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin and alive unto God. It is a reckoning of faith.

    'O wretched man that I am!
    Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God;
    but with the flesh the law of sin.'

    (Rom 7:24,25)

    Good discussion.
    In Christ Jesus
    Noblemen and Fish Catcher Jim say Amen and like this.
  18. Thank You and God Bless You
    Complete likes this.

  19. My ol' buddy Complete. If you read the OP or our other quotes you will see we at totally opposite ends of the spectrum. As for myself "as quoted" the sin nature has been forever will be and thru eternity been crucified.

    This is an understanding that I have come too. I have been at both ends so to speak but now I would stake my name, reputation, and ministry on it. I know not everyone see's this and I try to not be to smart when others have a different opinion. I do see that without righly dividing the word of truth the believer cannot move on in God. I write what I write knowing there are hungry hearts that are searching "yea, for the deep things of God.
    Complete likes this.
  20. Hello again, Noblemen,
    Your reply prompted me to look again at the OP, and I realize that I misunderstood your reasoning in the first few paragraphs. I can see now that you are indeed saying something very different from Major.

    * God does say, through Paul, in Romans 6:6, that our old man is crucified with Christ:-

    'Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him,
    that the body of sin might be destroyed,
    that henceforth we should not serve sin.'

    * That cannot be denied.

    I need to consider this further.

    Thank you.
    In Christ Jesus

    Major and Noblemen say Amen and like this.

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