Revelation

MMurphy said:
I was raised Pentecostal, so I was brought up around quite a few apocalyptic "prophesies". I now reject the notion that any person knows the end of days--so I can stop listening to people accusing the President of being the Antichrist.

Mostly, I now view John's Apocalypse to be primarily a book for Christians living in the First Century in Rome, to provide them comfort and faith. But, that is will also do the same for those living in the end of days, but for the most part it is not a prophesy that people living today will understand.

What are your thoughts?
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You've obviously arrived at a great revelation in your own life proving your growing well, too many take on the traditions of our 'fathers' instead of seeking Christ for ourselves so well done. I think the answer is simple in many ways, the end times began when Jesus bowed his head, he made it clear that no-one knows the date of his return and much of Revelations (apart from the beginning) is based in the tribulation period, the seventh great age and the final days of this present world. So it's quite clear in many ways and i think you've arrived at some solid conclusions there!
 
Major said:
I asked you already IF you had read any of the books in the Apocrypha and I have not seen your answer or maybe I missed it.

If it were Scripture, we would expect it to be free of false doctrine, correct??? If you do indeed stand with Timothy, ooops, right there is an error my friend. Timothy did not write the book of Timothy....Paul wrote it TO timothy.

The Jews do not recognize the New Test. my brother because they rejected their Messiah the Lord Jesus Christ. They crucified Him, do you really think that they would they turn around and acknowledge Him as their Messiah??? Not really a well thought out comment there my friend.

Same with the "schism" between Catholic and Protestant. There is NO schism....just plain old disagreement over what the Bible says. Protestants do not place Mary above all other women for one thing.

Now is we just consider ONE of the books of the Apocrypha, Enoch we can very clearly see that it as well as all the others books included definitely have a FALSE DOCTRINE which is different than the what is contained in the Scriptures.
What we find instead is that false doctrine is one of the most prevalent themes in the book!

Taking just a quick look at the text of Enoch up through Chapter 59, you will be able to find the following false doctrines:
(Now do not take my word for these, YOU do the work to show yourself approved, a workman of God)
  • 1:1 Implies restoration during tribulation - Does not agree with scriptures.
  • 1:8 In conflict with the doctrine that peace was made at the cross.
  • 2:2-3 contradicst 2 Pet 3:3-7
  • 5:4 Is an admonition to some unknown party - this is very irregular relative to the scriptures.
  • 6:3 Semjaza seems to be listed as the leader of the angels, which is not scriptural. There is no Semjaza in the Bible!
  • 6:3,8 None of these angels are mentioned in the Bible
  • 8:1 Azazel isn't even listed in 6:8 as one of the angels that fornicated with women. No Azazel listed in Scripture.
  • 8:3 Araqiel and Shamsiel aren't listed in 6:8 either
  • 10:2 Enoch allegedly wrote about Noah, even though the Bible teaches that Enoch was taken up to heaven years before Noah was born.
  • 10:4-6,12 Implies angels can be bound & hid in holes under rocks. This is contrary to scripture.
  • 10:8 Ascribes all the sin of the fallen angels to one named Azazel - not scriptural.
  • 10:15-11:2 Says that permanent restoration took place after the flood - clearly not true. It seems the true author of this book confused scriptures pertaining to the future restoration.
  • 13:5-6,14:4-5,7 Implies fallen angels can't talk to God - this contradicts Job. Also implies that angels were repentant, but weren't received back by God - very strange doctrine.
  • 14 Gives a very strange description of Heaven that conflicts with many scriptures
  • 15:8-10 Very strange doctrine about "evil spirits" proceeding from unredeemable giants
  • 17-18,21,23 Gives a very strange description of the earth & universe which is clearly not true. Also alludes to the ancient model of astronomy that held that there were 7 stars (the closest planets) which burned like the sun (they don't.)
  • 19:3 Discredits all other prophecy about the consumation of the ages.
  • 20 Lists strange angels not in scripture, and incorrectly assigns the roles of Michael (the warrior) and Gabriel (the messenger)
  • 21:7-10 Seems to contradict Biblical descriptions of the present & final judgement places for the fallen angels
  • 22 Contradicts the Biblical descriptions of past, present & future dwelling places for the righteous who die
  • 32:2-6 Seems to imply the Garden of Eden was still in existance after the Flood
  • 33:1-2 Says Heaven rests on a foundation that is at the Eastern edge of the earth
  • 33:3 He claims he counted the stars & individually mapped them, which is impossible scripturally (& scientifically)
  • 34 Says the winds come out of a "portal" at the Northern edge of the earth
  • 36:3 Says the stars come out of portals at the Eastern edge of the earth & move West
  • 38:5-6 Contradicts Daniel & other prophecies about the Mellinial Reign
  • 39:1-2 Very strange implications here about the "seed" of angels dwelling with men at the end... this contradicts the scriptures
  • 40:7 Talks about the "Satans" - plural, different than the Bible, who gives that name to only one fallen angel. Also, implies Satan can't stand in God's presence, contrary to Job.
  • 40:9 Once again mixes up the roles of the 2 Archangels & adds more names in. Michael's role in scripture is related to conquoring nations & fighting spiritual wars, while Gabriel's relates to bringing messages & visions to people.
  • 41:1-2 Says the Kingdom of God is divided - it's not & can't be scripturally. Also describes sinners being repelled from a mansion, which is also not scriptural, unless you look at a parable Jesus told, which was not intended to be literal.
  • 41:4-5 Says the sun, moon, winds, etc. are stored in chambers & released at appointed times.
  • 41:6-7 Implies the sun & moon move opposite of each other
  • 43:1-3,44 Very weird model of the nature of stars & lightning
  • 47:4 Says God requires the blood of the saints... very strange
  • 51:1 Says Sheol & Hell will give back to the earth, which isn't scriptural - also Hell is a NT term, not OT
  • 51:2 Disputes the Biblical doctrine that we are chosen. (We don't have to wait until Christ's return to be chosen.) This isn't scriptural.
  • General: Seems to imply Enoch came back down to earth after being taken up to Heaven, which is not scriptural.
I think Paul's words are very pertinent here:
As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
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Okay, so I'm not going to defend the Apocrypha, but in your post prior to this, most of the matters (save for the verse about magic) was not at variance with ordinary Christianity, it was all just anti-catholic.

Also I think it is very unwise for you to disparage Mary. She should be revered as the greatest of all women by both protestants and Catholics. Even if you don't think her Mother of God, (which is wholly inline with Christian dogma) she is still Mother of Christ, which gives her an important role as the mother of all Christians. And in any case she was Jesus' mother, and He was a man like all of us. We respect our mothers and we should certainly respect His mother.

It would be better to stay away from the touchy issues. We all believe in honoring Mary, let's not argue about how much we should honor her.
 
MMurphy said:
Okay, so I'm not going to defend the Apocrypha, but in your post prior to this, most of the matters (save for the verse about magic) was not at variance with ordinary Christianity, it was all just anti-catholic.

Also I think it is very unwise for you to disparage Mary. She should be revered as the greatest of all women by both protestants and Catholics. Even if you don't think her Mother of God, (which is wholly inline with Christian dogma) she is still Mother of Christ, which gives her an important role as the mother of all Christians. And in any case she was Jesus' mother, and He was a man like all of us. We respect our mothers and we should certainly respect His mother.

It would be better to stay away from the touchy issues. We all believe in honoring Mary, let's not argue about how much we should honor her.
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One of the things that every single person must master and control is his/her emotions concerning the religion they have chosen to be a part of. EVRY faith has its negitives and positives and the Catholic faith is no exception. I am a Baptist and I know and except that it is not the perfect religion. We must be prepared to face the REAL examples of the things that our religion does without taking those conversations as a personal attack. They are simple things that can be disagreed with as not being Scriptural.

Facts are facts and if you are unable to discuss those things then you will have a very hard time on any web site where religion is discussed.

Now, having said that, My dear friend.......The Bible says that Mary was blessed AMONG women, not ABOVE all women. I am in no way disparaging Mary. She was the mother of God for Pete's sake. However, she was a sinner just as you and I and everyone else is.

Example: The Bible tells us to NOT bow down to any graven image and that would include Mary and Joseph which are in every Catholic church. Now that is a fact YOU will have to deal with. I am not attacking the practice but am simply stating the fact as it exists. Not addressing such issues does not make them go away.

When did I say that I did not think of Mary as the Mother of God???? I never said such a thing & Why would you need to distort such a thing?

Romans 3:23 clearly says that "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God".
Even Jesus Himself said that "There is none good, no not one"!

My advice to you would be to set aside the dogma of the Catholic triditions and do some in depth Bible study on your own.
Then some of these issues you are having problems with would become clearer to you.

Remember, I am not the enemy. I am simply a believer just as you with maybe a different idea of what the Bible teaches us to do and to be. The ground at the foot of the cross is level for all people.
 
MMurphy said:
Okay, so I'm not going to defend the Apocrypha, but in your post prior to this, most of the matters (save for the verse about magic) was not at variance with ordinary Christianity, it was all just anti-catholic.

Also I think it is very unwise for you to disparage Mary. She should be revered as the greatest of all women by both protestants and Catholics. Even if you don't think her Mother of God, (which is wholly inline with Christian dogma) she is still Mother of Christ, which gives her an important role as the mother of all Christians. And in any case she was Jesus' mother, and He was a man like all of us. We respect our mothers and we should certainly respect His mother.

It would be better to stay away from the touchy issues. We all believe in honoring Mary, let's not argue about how much we should honor her.
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You said above..........."Okay, so I'm not going to defend the Apocrypha".

Wonderful!!! Then those who have been speaking to you have done good because the fact is that it can not be defended and you apparently have now come to that conclusion!

Bless you!
 
Major said:
You said above..........."Okay, so I'm not going to defend the Apocrypha".

Wonderful!!! Then those who have been speaking to you have done good because the fact is that it can not be defended and you apparently have now come to that conclusion!

Bless you!
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I was not saying that you were disparaging Mary, but she is extremely important to our Catholic brothers and sisters and we need to be sensitive to that. And the Apocrypha is just an argument about if it is wholly unscriptural or partly unscriptural and I think that's a silly discussion about which is it.

But, yes, your posts were enlightening. I'll give you that.
 
MMurphy said:
Okay, so I'm not going to defend the Apocrypha, but in your post prior to this, most of the matters (save for the verse about magic) was not at variance with ordinary Christianity, it was all just anti-catholic.

Also I think it is very unwise for you to disparage Mary. She should be revered as the greatest of all women by both protestants and Catholics. Even if you don't think her Mother of God, (which is wholly inline with Christian dogma) she is still Mother of Christ, which gives her an important role as the mother of all Christians. And in any case she was Jesus' mother, and He was a man like all of us. We respect our mothers and we should certainly respect His mother.

It would be better to stay away from the touchy issues. We all believe in honoring Mary, let's not argue about how much we should honor her.
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Mat 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Surely, Mary was honored by Jesus has his mother, but every single child of God who does the will of God the Father is the same his mother, and brother!!!! Why is that? Because just as mary gave birth to Jesus to his physical body on earth through the Holy Ghost, we the Church also give birth to Christ through the seed of the Word of God implanted in us that becomes manifested in the flesh inside each and every believer. Being born again by the incorruptible seed of the Word of God that lives forever in us.
 
CCW95A said:
Mat 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Surely, Mary was honored by Jesus has his mother, but every single child of God who does the will of God the Father is the same his mother, and brother!!!! Why is that? Because just as mary gave birth to Jesus to his physical body on earth through the Holy Ghost, we the Church also give birth to Christ through the seed of the Word of God implanted in us that becomes manifested in the flesh inside each and every believer. Being born again by the incorruptible seed of the Word of God that lives forever in us.
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Hopeful, but I will not ever think of myself as equal or greater than Mary. She is and was the first saint and she deserves respect for that fact.
 
Re: Mary: She is our sister in Christ, a sinner saved by grace, the same as we are. She is not the mother of God, but the mother of the man, Jesus. She is worthy of praise for her submission to the holy purpose of God in and through her.
 
Euphemia said:
Re: Mary: She is our sister in Christ, a sinner saved by grace, the same as we are. She is not the mother of God, but the mother of the man, Jesus. She is worthy of praise for her submission to the holy purpose of God in and through her.
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This matter has long been settled by the early church. If you believe that Jesus was God and man, and that His natures were unconfused and indivisible then Mary was mother both of Christ and of God the Son. She is the first among equals.
 
MMurphy said:
Hopeful, but I will not ever think of myself as equal or greater than Mary. She is and was the first saint and she deserves respect for that fact.
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Each and every saint of God, (which means every single born again person is a saint) differs in Glory one from another, as every star in the sky differs in Glory so does each child of God. All the children of God deserves respect no different from Mary.
 
MMurphy said:
This matter has long been settled by the early church. If you believe that Jesus was God and man, and that His natures were unconfused and indivisible then Mary was mother both of Christ and of God the Son. She is the first among equals.
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It is settled in believers that Mary was the chosen vessel to bring the Saviour into the world--Jesus, the Son. She is not the first among equals. She was a sinner just like any of us and needed a Saviour also.
 
Euphemia said:
It is settled in believers that Mary was the chosen vessel to bring the Saviour into the world--Jesus, the Son. She is not the first among equals. She was a sinner just like any of us and needed a Saviour also.
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She was Jesus' mother and since Jesus was a Jew you can believe that He respected and loved His mother greatly. We should to.
 
CCW95A said:
Each and every saint of God, (which means every single born again person is a saint) differs in Glory one from another, as every star in the sky differs in Glory so does each child of God. All the children of God deserves respect no different from Mary.
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Other saints are our brothers, but Mary is our Mother and deserves the motherly respect due to her as it is written in the commandants of God.

Dishonoring one's parents was one of the worst crimes a Jew could commit. It still is in fact. I think it is unwise for anyone to disparage Mother Mary. Respecting her does not mean worship, it means respect as a son gives to his mother.
 
MMurphy said:
Other saints are our brothers, but Mary is our Mother and deserves the motherly respect due to her as it is written in the commandants of God.

Dishonoring one's parents was one of the worst crimes a Jew could commit. It still is in fact. I think it is unwise for anyone to disparage Mother Mary. Respecting her does not mean worship, it means respect as a son gives to his mother.
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Mary is not our mother. We have no need of a mother. God as our Father is more than enough for all of us.
 
MMurphy said:
Mary was the Mother of Christ; we are Christians, ergo you are wrong and Mary is our mother.
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I respect your belief and opinion, I respect Mary, support this statement with scripture concerning Mary being our mother, I'm not familiar with any scripture that supports this.
 
gonefishing said:
I respect your belief and opinion, I respect Mary, support this statement with scripture concerning Mary being our mother, I'm not familiar with any scripture that supports this.
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It is a corollary. Mary being the mother of Christ would also be the mother of Christians both as a consequence of what she did for God and also as a matter of respect. I'm not saying she is literally our mother.
 
Gabriel speaks to Mary is Luke 1:28, "Hail, you that are highly favored, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women."

In other words she hold an exalted place in God's heart and He has blessed her among women. Hence first among saints (or women).

Jesus would have shown her a special honor since she was His mother, and so I see no reason why we should not either.

Just like a King's mother is not the King, we don't submit to her, but just as insulting the King's mother is as bad, if not worse, than insulting the King, that is how I feel we should treat Mary, as the blessed mother of our King.
 
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