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Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by MMurphy, Jun 28, 2014.

  1. I was raised Pentecostal, so I was brought up around quite a few apocalyptic "prophesies". I now reject the notion that any person knows the end of days--so I can stop listening to people accusing the President of being the Antichrist.

    Mostly, I now view John's Apocalypse to be primarily a book for Christians living in the First Century in Rome, to provide them comfort and faith. But, that is will also do the same for those living in the end of days, but for the most part it is not a prophesy that people living today will understand.

    What are your thoughts?
  2. #2 Euphemia, Jun 28, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2014
    Revelation is Jesus Christ's revealed word to the Church. As long as the Church is in the world, it is relevant to us. Just as God gave us a glimpse into the beginning of things in Genesis, so has H given us a glimpse into the end of things. It is not to be dismissed, as John says in Revelation 1:3 (NLT): "God blesses the one who reads the words of this prophecy to the church, and he blesses all who listen to its message and obey what it says, for the time is near."

    I don't know about you, but I want that blessing.
    porcupine73 likes this.
  3. If it were a book for only those in the early days of Rome, why is there a prophecy about a temple whose outer court isn't included in it's schematics? There hasn't been a temple since 70 AD. But I will not get into a preterists debate.
    Where is the Messiah likes this.
  4. That kind of proves his point doesnt it ab...The temple was measured with those who still worshipped still there (the Jews)...We do not worship in temples made with hands- the Jews did though and Jesus said to them that their house 'would be made desolate'. All that was to be left was that court- given over to the gentiles until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. Now here is a brain teaser for you...If that was to be 'until the time of the gentiles was fulfilled' and now Israel is a nation again-is the time of the gentiles fulfilled? Are we now in the time where God is dealing with Israel? Be careful with your answer as you cannot have your cake and eat it too..
    Where is the Messiah likes this.
  5. You're so dreadfully confused.

    Revelation 11:1-2 (KJV)
    And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

    The second temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Revelation wasn't penned until around 90 AD and there hasn't been a temple since. The 42 months hasn't started yet and begins with the death of the Two Witnesses and Israel is to flee to the wilderness for 1260 days (42 months of 30-day months). The tribulation begins with the arrival and preaching of the Two Witnesses for 1260 days (42 months of 30-day months). Having a temple isn't outside the bounds of reality seeing how the Jews do not accept Jesus and will revert to what they ignorantly know. Will God visit as He did in the OT? Not at all. Having a building means nothing to God if He isn't part of it. I love my cake and I just ate a slice.
    Where is the Messiah, God is Love, CeileDe and 1 other person say Amen and like this.
  6. You make lots of assumptions there but I don't see where you provide scriptures for your hypothesis...

    When do the two witnesses come out to testify according to scripture( because it does tell us)?

    Where is the Messiah likes this.
  7. Notwithstanding the potential of a future prophesy, how do you all feel about it being meant for Christians under persecution in the Roman Empire?

    I'm not a scholar on Revelation (but is any man really?) but here are a few things I understand to support that theory:

    Caesar Nero, who martyred St. Peter and St. Paul, set fire to Rome and murdered his own mother, his name transliterated into Hebrew adds up to 666, and in Greek 616 which is found in some manuscripts.

    Nero, as most Roman Emperors did, revered themselves as gods, Augustus called himself "Son of God" Nero was "Savior of the World" all being blasphemies, and Nero was the seventh Roman Emperor (including Julius Caesar)... Revelation 13:1

    One was also unable to participate in commerce unless they recognized the Caesar as god. The metaphor I've heard is that, it was Jewish tradition to consider either your right hand or your forehead as the mark of whatever was most precious to you, so when they took upon the mark of Nero as god, instead of God as god, they committed idolatry.

    After Nero, the Empire fell into civil war.

    Other prophesies I'm not sure about, but most of the non-apocalyptic scholarship I've read about points to this period of time as the most likely setting for Revelation--possibly as a foreshadowing.
  8. I like cake and I'll take two please, ..and just for the gee whiz file, ...it's a piece of cake and a slice of pie! ...according to what's her name from back in the 50's.

    Annnnd, the time of the Gentiles was officially over in June of 1967 Luke 21:24 when General Moshe Dayan and his troops retook the old city of Jerusalem along with the Temple Mount, however the Israeli Government immediately relinquished control back to the Arabs, ...gee. I wonder why? For the answer to this question I suggest you read Rev 6-19.

    Have you ever heard of overtime? God has called overtime, He has the right 'cuz it's His game and unless you were born again before before June 1967 you need to fall down on your knees and thank Him for it, because you and many others here, me included, would have missed the Kingdom!

    Now about that cake, ...FEDEX and DHL both deliver here!


  9. No assumptions, all scripture. I didn't spell it out because I'm tied of doing everyone else's homework, so you tell us.
  10. #10 JustPassingThru, Jun 29, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2014


    "Matt 'Guitar' Murphy, ...Blues Brothers Band?" Cool!

    Bro, the book of Revelation is written/laid out in chronological order, we know that because Jesus told us so in the first chapter,

    Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; Rev 1:19

    What did John see?

    Chapter 1, Jesus Christ in His now glorified state, up until that time cousin John had only seen Him in His state of humiliation. Phil 2:6-8

    What things were reality/actuality when John was given the vision?

    Chapters 2 & 3, the Church, more correctly the Church age or as Paul calls it the dispensation of Grace. Eph 3:2

    What are the things which will be after the Church Age?

    Chapters 4 - 22, ...4 & 5, the Church in Heaven, 6 - 19 the Tribulation, 20 the Millennium and Great White Throne Judgement, 21 & 22 New Heaven and New Earth and we all live happily ever after.

    For your question, "Christians under persecution in the Roman Empire," ...in Chapter 2, during the Church age, the Church of Smyrna,

    Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Rev 2:10

    History records there were 10 waves of severe persecutions from the Roman Emperors on the Church between the years of 100 AD and 312 AD before/when Constantine put a stop to it, history also records for us the saints of the Church of Smyrna were faithful until death in the atrocities of the coliseum games, ...they paid their dues and they will receive their crowns that Jesus promised them!

    History also records for us Nero was a mild tempered man, an accountant actually, with nothing outstanding in his reign, until, ...a short, bull legged, hooked nose little Jew with runny eyes came before him to be judged, Paul gave him the Gospel and as it always is, man can receive the Good News and be blessed or reject the Gospel and be cursed, Nero rejected the Gospel and history subsequently records for us he went insane.


  11. Nero was dead long before John wrote his apocalypse...and as AB has rightly indicated it speaks of a Temple people could only look forward to since the other was utterly demolished...there are certain things mentioned therein that give us an indicator of when and this Temple is one of them...obviously that time is not yet. No apocalyptic literature anywhere in the Bible looks backwards...there simply would be no point whatsoever....

    In His love

    Brother Paul
  12. It's easy to manipulate Hebrew to fit numbers because it is a very creative language. However, the preterists take too much liberty with Nero's name. Here's the translation of Emperor Nero which is actually נירון קיסר and can be found here. The preterists drop the two yods (י) so they force the gematria to come up with 666. The gematria for the actual name of Nero is 686. Furthermore, he died in 68 AD and Revelation was penned around 96 AD. So that rules him out...
  13. Some people teach Revelations is divided into 7 parts each culminating or implicating the return of Christ (the parousia). Now since we know Christ is not making seven second comings it is obvious that some of these occurences mentioned therein are overlapping and happening simultaneously.

    Christ in the Midst of the Lamps (Rev. 1:1-3:22) Christ's return (3:20-22).

    The Vision of Heaven and the Seals (Rev.4:1-7:17) chapter seven with the return of Christ

    The seven Trumpets (Rev. 8:1-11:19) Christ's return at the seventh trumpet (11:15)

    The persecuting Dragon (Rev. 12:1-14:20) closes with the Second Coming and with impending judgment (14:14-20).

    The seven Bowls (Rev. 15:1-16:21) Christ returns at the seventh bowl and seventh trumpet.

    The fall of mystery Babylon (Rev. 17:1-19:21) the return of Christ occurring (19:11)

    The final consummation (Rev. 20:1-22:21) We see the saints in heaven awaiting the resurrection (20:4-5), Christ comes for the final battle…the destruction of the beast, false prophet, and Satan (20:7-11), The the Great White Throne of Judgment (20:11-15). Then finally a glimpse at the New Jerusalem, and the New Heavens and New Earth (chapters 21-22).

    So what do some of you say about this? Please do not be reluctant to disagree I am not really sure I agree in all cases...but I thought it interesting...

    Brother Paul
  14. What are our thoughts????

    First of all, my thought is that you are incorrect on believing that the Revelation was given to be comfort for 1st century believers.

    I am glad you are out of the penacostal faith. Honestly......did you read and study the Scripture will involved with them or did you just follow along and do as the leadership told you to do??????

    The President in no way is or can be the A/c.

    My other thought is that some really good studying of the Bible would do you a world of good.
  15. Yes Paul, I have seen that taught as well.

    I have also seen the book taught as each set of 7 judgments end with the coming of Christ. That means you have 3 different trips through the book with differering views.

    Over the years, the way that has impressed me the most and allowed for ALL the prophecies of the Old and New Test. to fit together in a uniform way is that there are 7 SEAL judgments. (rev 6 & 8). Seal Judgments are first. they happen one after another until the 7th one.

    Then the 7th Seal judgment IS in fact the complete set of 7 Trumpet Judgments. (8 & 9).
    They describe that 1/3 of the earth is affected in some way or another with each judgment becoming more horrendous than the previous one.

    Then the 7th Trumpet is the compete set of 7 Bowl (Vial) Judgments which end with Armageddon.(16 & 18).

    This way there is only ONE trip through the Revelation and the judgments are accumulative and more destructive as time goes on.
  16. BINGO! We have a winner!!!
  17. I hate to break it to you but if the 'time of the gentiles' ended in 1967- that means no more gentiles enter the kingdom. The words fulfilled mean; filled up completed

    From G4137; repletion or completion, that is, (subjectively) what fills (as contents, supplement, copiousness, multitude), or (objectively) what is filled (as container, performance, period): - which is put in to fill up, piece that filled up, fulfilling, full, fulness.

    That means if you are born after 1967 you have no way to enter the Kingdom. He has shut the door. You might want to reconsider that perhaps the time of the gentiles has not yet ended so those we are preaching that God hath granted unto the Gentiles repentance unto life' don't get upset that the time of the gentiles has completed...? Or should I go tell people it is too late for them? Also...where does it say theere will be 'overtime' in Scripture? I don't see that passage...

  18. My friend.....you are IMO coming very close to the PRETERIST view of prophecy.

    I would hate to see you become so diluted and mis-informed so as to fall into that area of false Bible teaching.

    The Preterit interpretation is most untenable of all teachings concerning prophecy!
  19. This is absolutely absurd!

    You said that no one born after 1967 can be saved????? One must be saved to enter the Kingdom, correct?


    We know from prophecy as well as from past and present events that the possession of Jerusalem by Israel is temporary. The armies out of the North will attempt to capture Jerusalem as they come against Israel (see Ezekiel 38:15-16). Also, the Antichrist will make his throne in Jerusalem. So, you will probably see control of the Holy Land changing hands a couple of times before the final battle. After Armageddon, however, there will never be a question of who controls Jerusalem again.
  20. I wouldn't engage them since we know they cannot be convinced.

    "It is impossible for anyone to learn that which he thinks he already knows."

    This is the same argument when Israel didn't exist and from 200 AD to 1948 replacement theology existed even though real students of the scriptures knew differently because we read Romans 11. I won't share my words or do their own homework because they have it in their heads they are correct while throwing out other verses to fit their agenda. Let them be, time will correct them. :D

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