Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by mered, Apr 17, 2009.

  1. Revelation

    Pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, or no tribulation? What does the bible say about the tribulation? how do you counter the argument that there wont be one. Any one with any insight on this topic?
  2. The Bible says there will be a Tribulation. Matthew 24:4-27; Mark 13:5-23; and Luke 21:5-24 record Jesus' Olivet Discourse in which He speaks of a period of intense judgment just prior to His Second Coming.

    Not sure what you mean about "pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation or no tribulation" unless you are speaking of a pre-tribulation or mid-tribulation Rapture of the Church. I believe the Bible teaches a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church (1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-54). From chapter 4-19 in the book of Revelation, there is no mention of the Church, therefore I truly believe that the Church (the Bride of Christ) will not be present on the earth during this time. The Tribulation will last for a period of 7 years in fulfillment of Daniel 9:24-27 (the 70th week of Daniel). The first 3 1/2 years will be mild compared to the last 3 1/2 years (time of Jacob's trouble {Jeremiah 30:7}) called the Great Tribulation. The 7-year Tribulation is when God will pour out His wrath and judgment on the Christ-rejecting world and when He will fulfill His covenant (Jeremiah 31:1-34; Romans 11:25-27) with Israel and set up His Millennial Kingdom on this earth.
  3. I would be a pre trib as far as the rapture of the saints. The bible clearly teaches that we will be caught up with jesus when He comes.

    The dead in Christ shall rise first, then the church will be caught up to meet them with Christ.

    The tribulation will begin with 3 1/2 years of peace when the abomination of desolations will take place and the anti Christ will sit on the throne and make himself to be God.

    The last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation will be Gods wrath on the unrepentant world.
  4. Now...Play nice everyone. :)

  5. Mered ..... Can I encourage you before you start posting to go to the New Members Area and introduce yourself so that we can welcome you as this is your first post here in CFS ?

    We also encourage new members to please read the forum rules before starting to post ... Thankyou and God Bless.

  6. This topic has been well discussed in the past and I encourage every one to do their research before stating a new thread of this nature . Thank you

    SEARCH tool can be used to look into topic archives .
  7. I have a question about Luke 21:5-24 in verse 24 it say that this event will end until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    To me this means that this events have occurred, since I believe this is the time of the Gentiles. Any one has any idea what verse 24 means?
  9. Hi Mered :)

    You have Two different questions in your post.

    When? and If?
    The only way to answer the challenge is to answer with scripture. So here I go.

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    Matthew 24[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
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    So After the tribulation Jesus will return and gather the elect to Him.
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    There is another Rapture verse spoken of by Jesus that links the Day of the Lord to the Rapture.
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    Luke 17[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    29but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31" In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32Remember Lot's wife. 33Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."
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    When will the Son of Man (Messiah Jesus) be revealed? At His second coming the Day of the Lord. Who will take the sleeping man and the woman grinding and the man working in the field? The angels sent out in Matthew 24 verse 21[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    It is also nice to note that Jesus revealed that this will be a world wide event because at the time of His return it will be day on one half of the world "In that day" and it will be night on the other half of the world "in that night"
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    Also this will be an event that will take place in a twinkling of an eye Paul reveals the rapture and its timing at the Last trumpet this scripture is probably the best rapture supporting scripture in the bible:
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    1 Corrinthians15: [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
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    Here Paul is saying that as we inhabit earthly bodies derived from dust so shall we inhabit new bodies changed and not made of dust. Paul goes on to explain why:
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    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
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    So the bodies that we inhabit cannot enter the Kingdom of God and also "corruption" dead bodies must also be changed also. Then Paul reveals a mystery:
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    51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
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    So Paul is saying that "we shall not all sleep" now I hope everyone can agree that he is talking about physical death here? Paul is saying not everyone will experience physical death. He goes on to say that "we shall all be changed" both the dead and the living "in a moment", now at this point it could be argued that both the dead and the living could be changed in a moment in time, but at different times. That is to say the moment is only referring to the time it takes to change, not at the same moment. But we read on and Paul states the moment will be. "in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." So not only shall both the living and the dead be changed to inherit the Kingdom of God But they will both change at the same moment, at the last trumpet. As He goes on to say "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Paul goes on to explain it in more detail:
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    53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.
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    So here again we see Paul referring to the two states of being that the saints will be in at the time of the 1st Resurrection/Rapture "So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality," Dead saints and living saints caught up together in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

    So from what we have read the first resurrection and the rapture (although different experiences for them that take part) will happen at the same instant in time at the last trumpet.
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    So now we go on to the next scripture:

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    7but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.
    Now the sounding of the seventh Angel is the last of a series of seven trumpets in revelation. Note that the scripture says the "Mystery of God would be finished" now the coming of the Messiah has been described by scripture at a coming in the sky (a darkened sky) and all people will see Him. Now after this event there will be on ifs or buts about the Mystery of God because all will see that God is and who He is. Everyone will know from that moment on, there will be no Mystery left. As for the darkening of the sky this is described as happening beforehand on the sounding of the forth trumpet:
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    Revelation 8[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.
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    Now This brings up the belief in two resurrections. The resurrection of the saints that happens at the second coming and the resurrection of the rest of mankind at the end of the 1000 years for the great final Judgement. The Book of Revelation chapter 20 clearly states that their will be two distinct resurrections one at the return of the Messiah Jesus and another at the end of the 1000 year reign of the Messiah Jesus:
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    Revelation 20[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
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    satanic Rebellion Crushed
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    (1) 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
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    The Great White Throne Judgment
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    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books

    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
  10. Pre, mid, post , pan whichever one it is is fine with me as long as God is glorified in my life.
  11. I think the answer to your question is found in verse 27.
    Luke 21:27 and in Daniel 7:13
    It will be when Christ returns, and when Gods purpouse for the Gentiles has been completed and fulfilled. Luke 20:16
    But first the Gospel must be preached to all nations. Mark 13:10

    Then the fulfillment will take place, as recorded also in Romans 11:25

    But then again,....... I could be wrong about the timing. :D
    THAT!!!! is a great answer.
    Matthew 24:36 :)
  12. If we read Revelation 7 carefully we see in v.9 there is the great multitude of all nations, kindreds and people and tongues standing clothed with white robes and palms in their hands, praising God. Clearly this speaks of the redeemed Church. An elder asks who they are, and then replies v. 14 that these are they who have come "out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb". Clearly, therefore, the Church is in the Great Tribulation which started at the death of our Lord and will finish at the Rapture of the Church.

    The seven years are the seven years of Jacob's Trouble. (See Jeremiah 30, especially v.7). This will fulfil the 40th week spoken of by Daniel. This is a difficult subject, and I would suggest for those interested that they read "Climax of the Ages" by Frederick A. Tatford.

    Whilst those seven years will cause distress to all those left in the world, it will devolve mainly upon the nation of Israel.

    God bless us as we learn together.
  15. It is merely one of those things that God does not wish for us to understand but to keep our faith in Him and quit worrying.

    Take a look at Philippians 4:8, and think about how each of the following pertains to "is it important"

    Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.

    For all of the words in red, define them and put some thought into what this verse is actually saying.
  16. Just one question? Why, if the Lord doesn't want us to look into these matters, does he specifically tell us Luke 21:25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and will fant from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, ...At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near".

    Personally I am Standing up, lifting up my head, as I see the signs approaching. Remembering that there is a special crown prepared for those who love his appears. 2.Tim.4:8 "Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord the righteous judge will award to me on that day - and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

    This doesn't mean to say that those who look for his coming are so heavenly minded they are no earthly use. One of my dearest co-workers (now with the Lord) always looked for the signs of the Lord's coming, but he led thousands to Christ. May I also follow this example. The coming of the Lord will be true, noble, just, pure, lovely, of good report, virtuous and praiseworthy. Indeed we should meditate on these things.

    God bless us as we look for his appearing.

    God bless us as we learn together.
  17. A further point to make with regard to Matt. 24. The Lord is answering a question posed in v. 4 as the disciples ask him "when shall these things be". These things referring to Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple.(see v. 2). There seem to be three occasions. 1. Antiochus Epiphanes destroyed the temple in the 2nd century before Christ. 2. Titus destroyed it in 70 AD and 3. Antichrist will desecrate it in a time to come.

    Therefore the following discourse in its context is an answer to this question and refers specifically to Jerusalem. The preaching of the Kingdom v.14 and the setting up of the idol of Antichrist in the temple v.15 confirms this.

    The destruction of the new ~Temple set up by Antichrist will alert the Jewish nation to the fact that he is not their saviour as they thought. (see Daniel 9:25-27).
  18. With the word of God, Dan 12:1, I Thes. 4, Rev 4:1, pre-tribulation. The word of God is good enough for me. Is it for you?

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