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Revelation 14

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by th1bill, Dec 5, 2011.

  1. Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    Its my position that these are the same one hundred and forty-four thousand that are from the twelve tribes.

    14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
    14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

    These are, indeed, strange people, they, every one, are virgins. We saw in Exodus that thunder was used to describe the voice of God and here we find that metaphor again and we see in verse two a common metaphor in the Old Testament used to represent a huge crowd of people, many waters. The LORD has even given unto them a new song, rendered in a language that no man can speak.

    These redeemed are so serious about their faith that they have not even defiled themselves with marriage to a woman. This group of Jewish men compose a Church that is truly devoted to their service to the Lamb.

    14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
    14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    It is important that an understanding of the biblical use of the term, fear, and how it is used. The, very, best example I know of is that of a young lad and his father. When I was ten, my mother remarried and my dad came into my life. I so respected and loved the Veteran of WWII that I feared disappointing him. Fearing God is much the same, I am saved and it is my position that salvation an not be lost but I would rather die than to disappoint Father God.

    14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
    14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    When I was lost in my sins I was out at night as often as I possibly could, I drank the wine constantly seeking after joy, peace and fulfillment but it was never really there. These Lost Men in the Tribulation period will find even less fulfillment in their momentary pursuits. They will find, what they believe to be fulfillment and in an instant there will be that great undefinable void again, no matter the morsel gained. Because they have denied Jesus and refused His salvation but have chosen the momentary pleasures of lust, they have sentenced themselves to eternal suffering in the Lake oof Fire.

    14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
    14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

    It is popular today to believe that Jesus ended the influence of the Bible, the Bible Jesus and all of the disciples taught from, the Old Testament, on our lives. That is not true! The Law was never meant to save men! Every Saint in Heaven was and is saved by faith in Jesus, the Messiah. I am not, as I am oft accused of, telling you that you must keep the Law.

    But, at the same time Jesus in Matt. 5:18, Jesus promised us that not even the smallest stroke of the pen shall pass away before everything in the Bible is fulfilled. We are told to follow Jesus and the truth is that the example Jesus set was one of perfection and He broke not even one law. In the Law we see a beautiful word illustration of God and it is this that we are to seek to model for the World to look at.

    And no, and I know it too, you cannot do this without the Holy Spirit leading you through this life.

    14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
    14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
    14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
    14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
    14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
    14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
    14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. (KJV)

    The harvest here represents judgment and judging from the number of Angels with the cycles and the sharp, finely sharpened edges, it will be a terrible time for the remaining people on the Earth.
     
  2. Bill...........aren't these the Jehovah's Witnesses?????
     
  3. That is what the Watch tower Society would have us to believe.:rolleyes: And there-in lies the problem. The opening passage of this chapter clearly illustrates that Jesus is standing there on Mount Zion and that marks His return to Jerusalem. Thanks for the lead-in Major.

    In the earlier chapters we have seen that the 12 12,000s are from the 12 tribes of Israel. Folks get this all confused and open their ears and hearts to the Witnesses because, like any good propaganda, there is just enough truth in the mix to make it palatable... as long as the average dummy stays out of the scriptures and does not search the web. One must always read and understand the context of the portion of the scripture that the quote is extracted from. Israel was a man, Jacob, renamed by God, long before the nation ever was. The first chiefs/patriarchs of the 12 tribes were the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel.

    The saddest part is that I have had several JWs over the years tell me they had no Heavenly hope at all because the 144,000 members of the Watch Tower had ascended into Heaven in the early 1900´s.
     
  4. I see NKJV. It reads word for word. I'm holding it in my hand
     
  5. Priceless :D
     
  6. It will be interesting to see if the 144000 are of the same temporal position or if they are made up of people over the last 6000 years.

    A study of being sealed will benefit the understanding of these verses. I dont have time now to do it now but when we are saved we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. A seal represents ownership, authority and safe keeping.
     
  7. Correctly said my friend.
     
  8. My personal position has been developed over the past 22 year, as of Jan. 1, 2012, is that the flow of the text defines, clearly in my opinion, that these are all Jewish believers. When we do the study, a great more intensely than my present, rather, cursory exam, including only the text from the Book of The Revelation, we must examine, not only, Daniel 10 but also all of the Prophets, major and minor. My personal favorite for defining the 144,000 are Ezekiel 35 thru 38.
     
  9. 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    I believe that here we have a visual account of the beautiful and encouraging truth taught by the writer of Hebrews..see Heb 12:18-24

    14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
    14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
    I believe marriage (between a man and a woman) is ordained by God and is therefore a holy thing and not an occasion for defilement. In support of this belief I offer the following:
    Gen 2:20-24 Matt 19:4-6 also Mark 10:6-9 a truth established by the testimony of 3 witnesses. Now look at the gravity of 1Tim 4:1-5 Deceiving spirits and demonic doctrine speak ill of marriage according to Paul, a Spirit led Apostle. 1 Cor 7:28 1Cor 7:36 again no sin in marriage. Did the Lord at any time have second thoughts? What does the scripture tell us about this? Num 23:19 1Sam 15:29 again, 2 witnesses testify to the truth on this matter Deut 19:15 2Cor 13:1

    I for one do not embrace doctrines taught by demons.
    I do not believe the 144,000 to be a select and separate caste apart from the rest of saved and redeemed mankind as the JWs and some others do. I believe the number 144,000 denotes completion. There are 12 tribes or houses of Israel. Yet Israel is comprised of all those who are saved. Considerably more than 144,000 will be saved.. a number that no one can count. A study of Paul’s ‘Spirit led’ teaching recorded in Rom 11:16;24 and then also as John recorded in Rev 7:9-17 will show beyond argument that this is so.
    A rigid literal understanding of verses 3-5 has the 144,000 being an ‘all male’ choir with no women being among the chiorists. Not a very believable understanding. Also the word used for ‘virgin’ is not gender specific yet when used elsewhere in the NT it unarguably refers to women. Ie parable of the ten virgins. So there is little to commend a literal interpretation here.
    Paul, a Spirit led Apostle and teacher has this to say regarding gender from a spiritual understanding. Gal 3:26-29 And again Jesus taught regarding the resurrected…..see Matthew 22:30 Mark 12:25 Luke 20:34-36. note again the three witnesses to the truth. Now the reference to angelic similarity speaks of the lack of gender and not the role to be played out in the New Jerusalem by the saints. The idea that angels have gender stems for a very faulty understanding of Gen 6: 1-2. By gender, I mean the hardware necessary for procreation.
    I believe that the purity imputed to the 144,000 here is no different from the purity imputed to all the saved of God… after all, all saved are washed clean in and by the Blood of the Lamb, and are therefore and henceforth pure and without blemish. They too have no defilement, sexual or otherwise.

    14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
    14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
    At the beginning of the Church age, Acts 17:30 tells us that God commands all men to everywhere to repent. Notice how the angels are now calling on all men everywhere to repent. 2 witnesses to the truth.

    14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
    14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    My belief is that Babylon represents the world system of any age, the Roman Empire as it was at the time of writing, following through the various empire/civilizations till the end of the age. The first angel in this passage can be seen to be proclaiming the triumph of Christ on the cross over the hold the world system has held over man under the leadership of the dragon, and the superiority of Christ's church over the various empires of man. The second angel is proclaiming the perils of denouncing Christ, rejecting the everlasting gospel and choosing to continue in evil.

    14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
    14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are thedead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
    It is interesting that here in the above passage, a literal reading suggests yet another caste in heaven. Again this understanding can find no harmony with Paul’s Spirit led teaching. I believe it is a reinforcement of reassurance of the Lordship of Christ Jesus and His redemptive power. It is noteworthy that a literal reading suggests that this is set after the rapture, and that those who died in the Lord prior to the rapture were therefore not blessed. I condition I do not accept as Biblical.

    14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
    14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
    14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
    14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
    14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
    14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
    14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. (KJV)
    The one who is described as ‘like unto the Son of man’ is clearly the Lord. The harvest is symbolic of the saints of God past present and future. I’m sure there will be non-Spirit led objection to this. Nevertheless the saints of God are referred to on several occasions as ‘first fruits’, and that is exactly what/who we see being harvested…the first fruits…the pick of the crop. Next the vine is cleared of the spoilt fruit; the offering of Cain… totally unacceptable to the Lord. The winepress speaks of the total destruction of the second and unacceptable harvest.

    I have agonized over this contribution for some time, but in the end I consider it important to set down an alternate understanding based on the witness given us by the word of God.

    Blessings,
    calvin
     
  10. The 144000 are the first fruits redeemed from amongst men - first fruits refers to the first offering set aside for God. First fruits are always perfect and undefiled. Amazing there is a rough cross reference between Rev. 14 and Rev. 6. God instructs the angels not to harm the oil and the wine - could this reference to oil and wine be a precursor to the 144000 which are sealed?

    Num 18:12
    All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the first-fruits of them which they shall offer to Jehovah, I have given them to you.
    Num 18:13

    The first fruits of all that is in the land, which they shall bring to Jehovah, shall be yours. Everyone that is clean in your house shall eat of it.
     
  11. Calvin said.......
    A rigid literal understanding of verses 3-5 has the 144,000 being an ‘all male’ choir with no women being among the chiorists. Not a very believable understanding. Also the word used for ‘virgin’ is not gender specific yet when used elsewhere in the NT it unarguably refers to women. Ie parable of the ten virgins. So there is little to commend a literal interpretation here.

    My only comment to that is the actual words of the Scriptures themselves say the opposite and that leaves it up to YOU to accept what the Scriptures actualy do say and what others tell you that they say.
     
    th1bill likes this.
  12. Good advice Major! I have recently had one man to fight me tooth and nail, much as if he were the teacher and I his assigned student, to storm out of the class because he had wasted $125.00 on the purchase of five CDs from the Goods Hawker, Perry Stone and neither I, the Deacon member of my class nor the other two preachers in there would allow him to show them, instead of studying the Word of God. Trying to be fair I looked up Mister, not Godś preacher, Stone´s web site and right away found that for a proper price he and his people would send me items such as a meal that heals all ailments and I believe that for a hundred or so I could purchase a prayer cloth.

    I´m feeling more and more like my ministry is about to end and when folks like you and myself are gone home there will be no good left on the web. People love to be ignorant!
     
  13. To be honest, at the moment, I don't see it, however I would like to join with you on the rev 6 thread and explore this matter there. I notice that there was little study made of Rev 6.
    blessings,
    calvin
     
  14. Bill.........my experience is that most people are looking for TWO things.

    1). The easy way out.
    They want to listen to commentators instead of reading the real thing. For some reason they have grown to believe what others say instead of what God said.
    Just look at this chapter of Revelation in fron of us. The Scriptures are very, very clear in that they describe 144,ooo Jewish, Virgin, men. 12,000 from each tribe of Jews and then to top it off, God has each tribe listed and the amount of men from each tribe.

    Now come the commentators and teachers who have decided that the 144,000 are NOT virgins and in fact that number is not even correct and it is only a "representation. It begs the question........
    HOW DOES ONE KNOW THAT??? It means that the Word of God has to be changed to make it match their opinions. Now what does the Scriptures say about changing the Word of God????????

    Deut. 4:2
    "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

    2). They gravitate towards the Stones, and Hinns etc. because they sound good.

    We are living in 2 Tim. 4:1-4 in my opinion.
    "I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at[a] His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry."
     

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