Revelation 11

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by th1bill, Nov 14, 2011.

  1. Revelation 11:1:
    And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
    Revelation 11:2:
    But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

    This is the half way mark, 11 of 22 chapters, and we find that our LORD is instructing on the Great Tribulation, a.k.a. The day of the LORD. From my studies in the Major and the Minor Prophets I make it that at this point the Church has been raptured and the Man of Satan is in control, via the One World Government. (This will be explained when we begin chapter 13.)

    In this passage we find that the Temple has been rebuilt. Some will say this is the temple in Heaven and I reject that idea based on the text. The text clearly speaks of the Gentiles (Lost Men) and they shall never be turned loose in Heaven and further it speaks of the first forty-two months of the Tribulation period.

    In my sight the Dome on the Rock (The Golden Shrine built on top of the Temple Location) has been removed by what-ever means and has been replaced with the third, and in perspective, final, Temple for the name of Yahweh is built there.

    Revelation 11:3:
    And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    Revelation 11:4:
    These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
    Revelation 11:5:
    And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
    Revelation 11:6:
    These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

    There has been and still is a great deal of conjecture and concern over the identity of these two witnesses and I believe they are Enoch, who walked with God and was no more or Elijah and Moses. Most of the teachers I´ve studied with lean towards Elijah and Moses and I, like them, refuse to be dogmatic on this identity matter. These will be the two God has already appointed and nothing I say or do will change that! The most relevant matters here are that they are, not will be, God´s Witnesses and they are going to trouble the World for three and a half years.

    Revelation 11:7:
    And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
    Revelation 11:8:
    And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
    Revelation 11:9:
    And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
    Revelation 11:10:
    And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
    Revelation 11:11:
    And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
    Revelation 11:12:
    And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

    We will not be here to see this (the Saved Men and Women) but the joy and the celebration of their deaths will end abruptly and fear will grip the hearts of every lost person alive at this time. These men have defended themselves with fire out of their mouths. It is difficult, sometimes, to determine what is literal and what is symbolic I this book.

    The Holy Spirit has convinced me that all the writings here about the Two Witnesses is to be taken literally. It as been suggested to me by more than a couple of people that these men might have a Flame Thrower of some fashion but knowing what I do of God I can never embrace such a plain ad simple idea. When working our way through any prophetic passage we must remember we serve a truly Awesome God with limitless power and ability. God does not do things our way!

    Revelation 11:13:
    And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
    Revelation 11:14:
    The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

    I believe that it is very important to remember that the timing of events in Israel must be considered as our Time-Piece. When I look at the scriptures the closest thing I find that may be relative to the United States is the prophecy in Obadiah and references in other places of Edom. This just infuriates people, particularly my fellow citizens but like Edom and the second Edom, Ancient Rome, in the grand scheme of events, the U.S. is not important in Spiritual Matters.

    So, here, we see that a tenth of the Holy City, in Jerusalem, is destroyed and seven thousand men are killed. Watch me here because this is important for understanding. When we see a head count in the Bible, women and children are not counted, putting the count for the dead to total no less than twenty-one thousand and much more likely, well over thirty thousand. This will be no small event.

    Revelation 11:15:
    And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    Revelation 11:16:
    And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    Revelation 11:17:
    Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    Revelation 11:18:
    And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    Here we find what some have used for evidence of the Mid-Tribulation Rapture position. For myself, with all other scripture being used to consider my position, I cannot go there. That and the truth that the Holy Spirit as never sought to instruct me otherwise leaves me to consider that I have either drawn the right conclusion or this matter, not being a matter of Salvation, is not of critical consideration. I have taken the position that if a body disagrees with me here that I can agree to disagree and let my LORD settle the matter in and at His timing.

    Revelation 11:19:
    And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

    And this chapter ends in such a grand display of God´s power.
     
  2. Bill.......I agree 100% on the re-built temple and it being right where it has always been in Jerusalem. It must be that way because we know that Jesus has already told us that the "abomination of desolation" will stand in the holy place and declare himself to be God.

    Something to think about on the two witnesses.

    Luke 1:17 speaking of John the Baptist.......
    " And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

    I always believed and was taught that it would be Enoch and Elijah who would be the two witnesses because they did not suffer a physical death and the Scriptures say that it is appointed to every man to die in Hebrews. But then I considered the RAPTURE. All who are raptured will not have died but will be changed into a glorified body and will forever be with the Lord. Now, no where can I find that God is going to send back all the Raptured saints to die and then be resurrected again. So with that in mind I had to come to the conclusion that God IS NOT GOING TO BRING ENOCH AND ELIJAH BACK TO DIE.

    I mean, what would be the point of removing Enoch and Elijah thousands of years ago,(which I believe is a picture of the Rapture) give them a glorified body so as to be in the presence of God, to then take that away to experience death that they were Raptured from????. To that made no sense at all.
    Therefore the two witness must be real people, Jews who are converted and have the "spirit and power" of Elijah and even Moses to confront the Antichrist and preach the gospel from the re-built temple.

    Just my opinion!!!!
     
  3. Major, I wish I knew...............but I don't!
    Let me therefore ask myself, you, we, us and anyone else in range, 'What are, and necessarily must be the credentials of a witness'? Consider Acts 1:22
    Could any later day Jews truly bear witness of Christ ?
    Could any Earth bound saint stand before the throne of 'The God of the Earth'? and if the 'God of the Earth' is not referring to either Christ or the God of Heaven also, then whom?
    Could just 2 individual saints be described as olive trees and lamp stands? Olive trees have many branches and 'lamp stands' probably have seven lamp holders a piece.
    Now, moving on to the circumstances surrounding the death of these two witnesses. They are said to be left dead and on show for three and a half days, during which time the people who had been tormented by their ministry, send gifts to each other. I would expect that it would take more than half a week to organize all these celebrations and gift giving.
    So I'm left asking the question...."How literal are the events depicted in this particular part of Revelation?"
    Y'see I don't understand the whole of Revelation to be either literal or allegorical. However where a literal interpretation is seemingly impossible, that entices an allegorical interpretation as might well be the case here.

    blessings,
    calvin
     
  4. LOL! Love it! Iĺl deal with your opinion so long as you remember that thisquarter long thesis Iḿ engaged in writting is my opinion. Great response.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. My thoughts.Verse 10 says they are prophets. The bible also says these two witnesses will wear the same sack-cloth outfits that the old prophets used to wear. There have been no 'true' prophets on earth since Jesus. Hence, I take verse 10 literally, that they are indeed actual 'true' prophets.
    The fact that they would come back to die after they have resurrected bodies is interesting, but if God is giving them power to throw fireballs It is not that unbelievable that God would give them physical bodies again, or perhaps their death is not literal but just a sleep. Also if they were two 'real' people / converted jews, I can't see them going from no-faith to prophet status so quick. Will jews not only repent when they see and hear the two prophets? You are assuming here that chiefly the rapture will convict them and God will take these two ordinary men to probably the highest level of receiving direct power from God that mankind has ever had, within what would need to be a few days after the rapture?
     
  6. They wouldnt have to bear ''witness' of Christ as Christians do today with the help of The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit won't be here during the tribulation. All the witnesses will need to do is explain to the jews that the anti-christ is the 'anti'-christ. That the true Christ was slain by them. If they don't serve the true God, they will perish. I think the bible is very literal on only 2 prophets casting fireballs. With so much power as described, it is more then possible for only 2 to get the job done.

    I think that if a prophet who toasted my friend and gave me hell, died, I would be the first at their funeral and immediately send some whiskey to my friends wife, who will come and join me the same night to celebrate the HUGE relief of the prophets being dead.

    I think its very literal. ''And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth''
    Notice John does not mention 2 dragons with many heads and is very specific on the length of time''.
     
    Major likes this.
  7. kingJ posted
    Ahh yes even though these witnesses are presumably stationed in Jerusalem, Rev 11:8, yet the sphere of their ministry is clearly global Rev 11:6 it is possible that you and your late friend's wife might make it to Jerusalem from anywhere on Earth ......not impossible, if they were in fact to be buried. However notice that these witnesses are denied burial anyway: Rev 11:9
    As for myself, I see a great need to be extremely careful in adopting any interpretation/understanding of these matters, yet there is blessing promised for those who do gain understanding Rev 1:3.
    If John is specific (literal) about the 42 months of their testimony and he might well be, then is it not likely that he was equally specific about the 3 1/2 days in which they were on exhibit as trophies of the beast? So again, the global populace had only 84 hours to whoop it up and exchange gifts.
    KingJ, I'm just trying to present some discussion that questions things...not trying to be exclusively right. I freely admit I Do not know these matters for sure.
    blessings,
    calvin
     
  8. I agree completly my friend.!!

    They WILL BE God's men without question IMO.

    As far as their being learned of the Scriptures...remember they are prophets ...Jews, trained in the Rabinical codes and Old Test. and also, with God, all things are possible.
     
  9. Absolutly.
     
  10. It just makes sense to me that if someone who you hated died, you would immediately celebrate / give gifts / throw a party. I really cant see gifts being given as they would if someone all loved died.

    Not everyone has to bring gifts. John could be merely observing the local populace.
     
    Major likes this.
  11. It just makes sense to me that if someone who you hated died, you would immediately celebrate / give gifts / throw a party. I really cant see gifts being given as they would if someone all loved died.

    Not everyone has to bring gifts. John could be merely observing the local populace.
     
  12. Good question calvin.

    I understand the two preachers to be LITERAL men.

    WHat makes a witness????
    That would be someone who has been saved from eternal death in hell to eternal life in heaven by believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ's death, burial and resurrection. I AM A WITNESS of that Biblical fact in that I take it by "faith" believing it happened just as if I were there to see it happen.

    What about Acts 1:22. Does it mean that a witness has to be ordained to actually be a witness.
    NO! When we correctly divide the Word of God we see here in Acts that Peter gives the essential qualifications of the one to take the place of JUDAS.Peter declared that the new apostle had to "be a witness with us of His resurrection. The NEW APOSTLE had to be an eyewitness of the resurrection. Acts 1:22 is the qualification of an apostle NOT of a witness who can and should share the gospel to the lost.

    Could any later day Jews truly bear witness of Christ
    O YES my friend!!! I have several friends who are now COMPLETED Jews. Let me tell you that they are the best soul winners in the world. Their passion for Christ is off the scale.
    You see, they spent many years denying Christ and living by rules and regulations and finally when they came to Christ, He set them free and they are now trying to make up for all of that lost time in denial.

    Could any Earth bound saint stand before the throne of 'The God of the Earth'
    Rev. 11:1-4............
    "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
    2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
    3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."

    Verses 1-2 are "paraenthectical vision of the measuring of the temple"
    In Zech. 2:2 the prophet Zechariah beholds an angelic being going forth to measure the city of Jerusalem. The significance of that act is then revealed in Zech. 2:4 when it is explained that Jerusalem shall be in the future yet be inhadited by the people of God. THUS the measuring depicted God's intention of possessing the cith fully in the future. So also with Exek. 40:5
    where he measures the millennial temple.

    Now every year, the high priest went into the Holy of Holies to offer a sacrifice for all the people. The blood was applied to the Mercy Seat. The Mercy Seat was a gold lid sitting on top of the Ark of the Covenant and it is told to us in the Scriptures that it was there where God would meet with man. So, YES, man could stand before the throne of God on the earth because it was represented on the earth at the Mercy Seat.

    Could just 2 individual saints be described as olive trees and lamp stands?
    Zecheriah 4 gives a similar vision. There the TWO olive trees represent God's TWO anointed ones who were Zerubbabel, the govener and Joshua the high priest. They were esprecially filled by the Holy Spirit in order to accomplish the building of the second temple. Olive trees give oil and that is the oil that was used to fuel the Lampstand in the temple lights. They symbolize those who are filled abundtly with God's Spirit.

    "How literal are the events depicted in this particular part of Revelation?"
    Well............how literal were the plagues that fell upon Egypt when Moses told Pharoh to Let my people go?
    How literal was the walls of Jericho that fell down?
    How literal was the firey furnance in Babylon?
    How literal was the VIRGIN birth?
    How literal was the death of Christ.
    How literal was the resurrection of Christ?
    I believe the Bible is best understood as LITERAL unless it specifically tells us that it is not LITERAL. The Bible will interpret itself for us if we let it.

    Good questions my friend and I hope I have been of some help to you!!!
     
  13. Correct. And remember that the ministry of these two men has been going on for 3 and 1/2 years. They will have been on CNN and FOX news. The fact that they stopped the rain and caused all kinds of judgments would be on the worlds minds. When they see them killed on world wide TV coverage......IT WILL BE JUST LIKE BLACK FRIDAY.
    The world will be so happy that they will want to celebrate with friends and family over their good luck hoping now that heir lives will get better.

    The truth is..............their lives are just about to get a lot, lot worse.
     
  14. KingJ,
    Let me put a curve ball across the plate here. Sack Cloth was/is made of Camel hair... Camel Hair suits? And then Jesus said that John the Baptist was/is Isaiah. (Matt. 11:13 & 14, Matt. 17:10-13)

    [​IMG]
     
  15. If they are going to wear smart suits, why wear camel hair specifically? It still sounds logical that they dress in the attire expected to see 'old prophets in'.

    Am I missing something here? All I gather is that John is then the last prophet to visit the jews.

    I had an interesting discussion with a jew a while back. She was explaining how there was around 2000 recognised prophets before Jesus. Not sure how accurate that is. But it is interesting how God sent so many prophets to ONLY the jews to keep them in line. Because of this strict enforcement of the law on them, it makes perfect sense that God give them a 'second chance' with these 2 prophets. They can be forgiven for not entirely accepting Jesus (even though the bible points to Him) because of prophets like Elijah and Malachi drilling the laws into them, with signs and wonders following.
     
  16. Hmmm, given that an apostle is 'one who is sent', are these two witnesses not sent? do they not need to testify of the resurrection?...strange.

    that is great to hear, though I hope they are not just re-applying their zeal for the old works of the law to new zeal for works
    Well major I can not be comfortable with this because Jesus has replaced/superseded/outmoded the high priests of yesteryear see Hebrews 4:14 -15. Would the Lord use an outmoded priesthood to carryout such an important ministry to mankind in those final days?? I can't see that happening.
    So, are you suggesting that Zerubbabel and Joshua are the names and identity of these two witnesses? Problem solved?

    These things you have mentioned are clearly literal, but then I ask you how literal is Gen 4:6 to be taken. Sure the teaching is true, the warning is apt, but the only person I know of who has given sin a literal persona such that it can literally crouch at the door is Frank Peretti....The oath I think.
    I do agree that the Bible is mostly literal, but not always. Jesus said that he would send the councilor to guide us into all truth... I believe that and so we all need to let that happen. Letting the Bible interpret itself could (note I say could not will) easily exclude the higher guidance of the Holy Spirit.
    Yes they are, and they are intended to promote serious study.
    Blessings,
    calvin
     
  17. We need to remember that Revelation, from chapter1 verse1 through to Chapter 22 verse 21 is the revealing of ,the uncovering of, the disclosure of, Jesus Christ. Rev 1:1
    Any interpretation, any attempted teaching of or from Revelation that does not have and does not hold Jesus Christ as central to it, is going to turn out to be false interpretation, or false teaching.
    Relax guys, I'm going to crawl back into the woodwork and silently observe.........for a while anyway.
    blessings,
    calvin
     
  18. Sack cloth is made of Camel Hair.

    The scriptures I listed show that John may have been Isaiah.

    2000? Remember, not every man calling himself a prophet was. The only recognized prophets in the Word of God are the 16 with books in the Old Testament. And the Old Testament is the Jewish Bible.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Calvin........as for the first comment, NO it is not strange my friend.
    In the context of your post of Acts they are considering WHO will be an apostle to take Judas place and to be an apostle one had to be personally commisioned by the Lord Jesus. It was not about being sent....but being called as an apostle.

    As for the second......ABSOLUTELY NOT! There zeal is for soul winning nOT law abiding. They are saved and know the differance of keeping the law and the grace of God.

    As for the third comment...........when you consider it again please note that the posting of the job of the priest was in answer to your idea of Could any Earth bound saint stand before the throne of 'The God of the Earth' in comment #12.

    I was simply giving an example of what had already happened in that a priest with a blood offering can could approah a holy God. Yes....we all know that we can do the same today by the shed blood of the Lord Jesus because we are members of the "priesthood of believers."

    Then forth.....you stated,
    "So, are you suggesting that Zerubbabel and Joshua are the names and identity of these two witnesses? Problem solved?

    NO my friend I did not say that at all. Again it was YOUR uestion of.............
    Could just 2 individual saints be described as olive trees and lamp stands?

    I simply gave you the Bible verses to show that was indeed the case.
     
  20. Amen my brother!
     

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