Reply To An Interesting Inquiry Of “from Eternity Past”

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by netchaplain, Sep 16, 2013.

  1. “So, would you then say that in effect God causes the sinner to sin the sins they sin? Thus when a man is tempted it is because God created Him to be tempted in just this way?”

    It is obvious God created man with the ability to sin, same as the angels (but they are not heirs of salvation, just messengers to those who are - Heb 1:14), or Adam and Eve couldn't have sinned. Whether this nature was antecedent of the temptation is irrelevant to me, but God’s foreknowing is. I believe one the primary similarities between the angelic and human order is autonomy, which is what I believe is the primary "likeness" of God, e.g. only man and angels have this ability.

    I believe it is this ability of choosing for self (Due 30:19) that incurs accountability, and just as the angels were created with the ability to choose, so man also has. God's "ways are past finding out" (Rom 11:33) and I believe He chose to use sin in His plan, which in my opinion does not make God to become a part of sin. To allow for the concept of man being in His "likeness" concerning choice, He "determined" this is the way, or He would have predetermined another way if it wasn't the way He desired it to transpire.

    God doesn't "cause the sinner to sin" but in order that we are like (likeness) Him in autonomy, this is His way.

    I expect there will be many who conceive of this concept to be ridiculous and my apologies, but my reason for posting all my materials is to encourage, not compete.

    -NC (Robert)
  2. Here's what I think:

    God created everything.... including evil. If God did not create it, it wouldn't exist.

    God does not do evil, but the fact that evil exists IS GOOD, because it will ultimately glorify Him through the eventual destruction of it.

    Too many people want to let God off the hook for evil in the world. But the bottom line is that God does not want to be let off the hook. God is sovereign over all and nothing in the universe happens outside of God's sovereignty. He will accomplish all his purpose (Isaiah 46:9-10).

    The fall of the angels in heaven was ordained by God. He was not "surprised" by it. If God did not ordain it, it wouldn't have happened.
    Same for the fall of Adam and Eve. Replace them with any other couple that you know and they would have made the exact same decision. It's all good fun to call them idiots or to say "they screwed us" by sinning, but it's folly to claim that had you or I been in the garden back then that we would have made any other decision.

    God does not cause the sinner to sin. He doesn't need to. The sinner will sin by default. More often, God restrains us from sinning, way more than we probably ever know (Gen 20:6).

    When explaining this concept, many people use language that God "allows" sin to happen. I personally don't believe this is the best word choice because "allowing sin" implies that God is is relatively unengaged and is somehow discovering humans conducting sinful acts as history plays itself out. I believe that all sin is ordained by God and is part of His design. The scripture says He declared "the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done." (Isaiah 46:9-10) He declared it! He declared all things not yet done before they would happen. He wrote every day of our lives "when as yet there were none of them." (Psalms 139:16) This is predestination. It is a script that is being played out according to His purpose and for His glory. Predestination is not a discovery of people's choices through His divine foreknowledge. It is a sovereign ordination of things not yet done.
  3. #3 aha, Sep 19, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2013
    Btw, Interesting verse Gen 20:6

    Does the sinner have knowledge that he is sinning?
    I think so.

    Something in us: a sense of what is good and what is evil.

    We are helpless, that we sense we need salvation or at least we are ask ourselves something is wrong?
  4. I agree with your view in the OP Net.


    Sin is simply rebellion against God and His will.

    A verse that makes me think for long on God's ability to go against His own will (sin) but yet He doesn't is Luke 22:42 Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

    We know that God does what pleases Him Psalms 135:6. So Calvinists would likely conclude that then means He can torture us, destroy us, 'sin' against us. But fortunately for us we know that God makes us promises that He is going to be good, just, longsuffering and NOT evil, partial to us...our confidence is that He keeps His promises Deut 7:9 and 2 Tim 2:13.
  5. Grace is the only thing that can bring into fellowship with God and it is what He wants from us.
  6. No Calvinist thinks God tortures us or sins against us. If you're going to speak for Calvinists, please do so accurately. What you've said here is absurd.

    With that said, God does discipline and chastise us (Hebrews 12:6). If He chastises you, it means He loves you.

    Another passage of scripture tells us quite clearly that God writes evil into our lives for the purposes of His good. Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers, yet God used that to raise him up in Egypt so that many could be saved from starvation. Joseph's brothers meant to do this for evil purposes, but God meant it for good. (Genesis 50:20). God meant for this to happen. This is not God torturing us. This is not God sinning against us. This is God's sovereign use of evil as an instrument for his good purpose.

    The scriptures also promise us that all things (including evil) work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. (Romans 8:28)

    This is not a verse that describes God going against His will. Jesus clearly did not want to endure crucifixion (who would?), but the Father clearly willed it to happen as part of his redemptive plan. Scripture tells us it was the will of the LORD to crush him. (Isaiah 53:10) God was unquestionably willing, which was why He didn't take the cup from Jesus. If God was not willing, it wouldn't have happened.
  7. #7 KingJ, Sep 20, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2013
    No, how you sugarcoat your belief is absurd / crazy / illogical. Logic 101 = If God SeNdS aNyOnE tO hElL without giving them equal opportunity to be in heaven....God IS torturing them..... ''insert face with hammer hitting head''. How in the universe would you think otherwise? Jack ran in circles all day trying too, but make absolutely no logical sense.
    Not sure why you mention this. Every Christian knows God puts us through trials and tribulations. I am not talking about the 'elect' though....
  8. I did not say He went against His will. But it should make us think as Jesus = God. Jesus could have chosen to not go to the cross. He knew the will of God, He is God. But yet still asked ''if''. He chose to stick to the promise and love us all. God chose to carry His cross.
  9. #9 netchaplain, Sep 20, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2013
    Hi Kurt - Very instructional reply. I see nothing which conflicts with the truth of Scripture and I also find it well enhances the sovereignty of God's omniscience and omnipotence. Best reply to the thread's concept on twelve sites I post on.

    Kurt, if I could have your permission, I would like to post your reply in response to my thread everywhere I have posted it. Thanks.

    God's blessings to your Family!
  10. Feel free!
  11. Thank you Brother. This is also what I'm replying with:

    Though evil came by God’s creation, this does not incur attribution to Him as doing evil. The crux of this issue concerns His foreknowledge of evil coming into creation, because that which is foreknown is that which is foreordained, thus He preplanned everything according to His “perfect will” (Rom 12:2).

    He foreknew Satan would be “a murderer from the beginning,” who “abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him” (John 8:44). The fact Satan was “the anointed cherub” and “wast perfect in thy ways,” was an insignificant position because God knew eventually “iniquity” would be “found in thee” (Eze 28:14, 15).

    This concept only partially parallels God’s foreknowledge of man’s iniquity, the difference being that His plans of redemption involved man only, for angels cannot be “heirs of salvation” (Heb 1:14). All angels were created, but only two humans were created and the remnant incarnated, thus bringing into reality by His preplanning, those who would be “born of God.”
  12. Yes, I agree with this. God definitely does not do evil. However, it seems to me that God uses sinners who do evil to accomplish His greater good. It's a subtle, but important nuance.

    This is how I see it as well. I would even take it a step further and say that Satan was created "a murderer from the beginning." As I previously mentioned, I don't believe God was "surprised" by Satan's rebellion. I believe that God knew Satan would rebel before Satan was created and, if you believe this, it logically follows that Satan was created to rebel. In other words, rebellion was Satan's purpose for existence.

    Was that "fair" to Satan - that he was created to fail? It doesn't seem fair to me at all according to my western standards of fairness, but I am not the measure of what is fair and good. God is. This is one of the areas I depart from the Arminian view - that God is not necessarily "fair." God is under no obligation to provide "equal opportunity" to anyone. Arminians cringe at this view, and in all honesty, I do too. I don't have to like it, but He is God and He does what He wants. God selected His elect for no other reason except that He loves them. After all, this is why the Israelites were selected as His chosen people: Deuteronomy 7:6-8
  13. #13 netchaplain, Sep 21, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
    Hi Kurt - I believe Satan and Adam were created apart from the sinful nature and that this nature came into being by the choice of the created, because there was a time when there was no "iniquity found" (Eze 28:15) concerning the Devil, and that Adam was "good" (Gen 1:31) and also apart from the same.

    The crux-issue is the fact that since God foreknew everything, He ordained (preplanned) everything to serve His purpose. This is the reason for the thread, to exhibit God's control, which in knowing, the believer can be assured that He works "all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose" (Rom 8:28); all of which I believe you agree.

    Concerning predestination of the elect, the issue will most likely remain mostly unknown in its fullest comprehension and this is the crux-passage why: "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour (Rom 9:21)?

    Thanks for your replies on this thread and God's blessings to your Family. Chat you latter!
  14. #14 aha, Sep 21, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
    That one got me thinking…. Equal = fairness = just = justice?

    What is being just, justice? Is it equivalent to fairness?

    .....seems justice is traditionally Divine Providence, i.e. care, wisdom.......
    associating justice with fairness is a modern innovation or instinct?
    Concept of justice
    According to most contemporary theories of justice, justice is overwhelmingly important: John Rawls claims that "Justice is the first virtue of social institutions, as truth is of systems of thought."[9] Justice can be thought of as distinct from benevolence, charity, prudence, mercy, generosity, or compassion, although these dimensions are regularly understood to also be interlinked. Justice is connected to the concept of cardinal virtues, of which it is one. Justice has traditionally been associated with concepts of fate, reincarnation or Divine Providence, i.e. with a life in accordance with the cosmic plan. The association of justice with fairness has thus been historically and culturally rare and is perhaps chiefly a modern innovation [in western societies].[10]

    Studies at UCLA in 2008 have indicated that reactions to fairness are "wired" into the brain and that, "Fairness is activating the same part of the brain that responds to food in rats... This is consistent with the notion that being treated fairly satisfies a basic need".[11] Research conducted in 2003 at Emory University, Georgia, USA, involving Capuchin Monkeys demonstrated that other cooperative animals also possess such a sense and that "inequity aversion may not be uniquely human"[12] indicating that ideas of fairness and justice may be instinctual in nature.
  15. Hi Aha - Thanks for you input and I believe this would parallel your reply:

    Mercy--Not receiving what is deserved

    Grace--Receiving what is undeserved

    Justice--Receiving what is deserved

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