Redefining Marriage.

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by LysanderShapiro, Nov 22, 2014.

  1. I listened to this episode and thought it was one of the greatest approaches to holy matrimony and why it cannot be redefined.

    This is from Catholic Answers, but this isn't only limited to Catholic perspective -- it is more broadly also from a non-Catholic Christian perspective that can be appreciated.


  2. Interesting video, @LysanderShapiro. Silly as it may sound, but I had not considered seeking "society approval" for sexual practices as part of this debate. Nor the extended versions of polygamy and incest or age (child) unions.
  3. I didn't see it as seeking society approval -- we ought to stand our ground in regards to truth no matter what society says -- but we should be able to give a response that even enemies of the faith can understand. Not even for the sake of not offending (people will be offended no matter what) but for the sake of promoting truth.
  4. What I meant - Previously, I saw it as a debate about giving "gay" couples the benefit of secular/legal rights accorded to those that married couples already had. In civil as opposed to religious unions. It sounded "fair" to me. It is pointed out that even in societies, historically, who tolerated such behaviors and were non Judeo/Christian, it was still not approved behavior to the point of marital union or ever considered in the same light. The essence of the matter is that the only difference between a gay couple and a man/woman one is sexual practice. And asking for a legal union based on a practice that the majority of society does not approve is essentially asking for that approval. The very next step would be polygamy.
  5. It gave the Christian reason for marriage being as one man and one woman as it is not just something nice, but is a sacrament -- a holy communion. And even offered the secular reason for it. But I agree with Trent Horn in the video, a theocracy isn't the answer. Spreading the Gospel and the morality of it that follows is. By denouncing a theocracy, it doesn't mean that you are permitting or condoning non-Christian beliefs.

    I don't agree with every single thing the video mentioned. For instance, I don't think government should have any involvement with marriage at all. But that's getting into the political perspective of where my faith lies.

    What do you think about their theological arguments for marriage though? That's the main point of the video of course.
  6. I very much oppose a theocracy (look at Iran!) (or the ISIS caliphate) until the 2nd Coming, of course :)

    I'm unsure, specifically, what you mean by theological argument. My mind goes to the question that was put that Christ does not condemn "it" or gay coupling. On that basis, Christ didn't specifically condemn pedophilia/polygamy/bestiality or any of a number of practices. Jesus does speak to marriage, though, and He says that is man/woman. The theology as Trent answers is based on scripture, and common sense. It seems sound to me.
    calvin likes this.
  7. Marriage is of God and is not of man or springs fr0m man .
    It is inherent in all scripture as an eternal principle not only between a man and a woman . But also as the Lord and the church that is its ultimate perfection. Which the marriage between a man and a woman echoes or mirrors .
    It is more than societies approval that makes it so .
    For the truth is no democratic and is neither upheld undermined or established by how many people 'vote' or approve it .
    It is not a tyrant either and so men and women are free to marry or not . But are not free to fornicate .and the more men and women do the more bound they become and corrupt themselves ,
    The critical thing is what is Gods perspective? Not mans .
    For mans perspective without the living God is always awry or false and short sighted.

    The redefinition of what marriage is has come about because "while men slept his enemy came and sowed tares" Math 13:25.
    I cant speak about the USA .But in the UK Christians have been blindly voting for a party and have elected people they do not know ,never seen heard or had a decent conversation with and have thus over decades elected vain and vile men and women who are now in the majority in the house of Commons .
    Winston Churchill once said " democracy is the worse form of government there is ,but every other form has been tried" and by implication has proven not to work.
    I will add my pennyworth to that thought provoking statement . Democracy has a fatal flaw in it and a hidden snare to the unwary .It is this. If you can get a majority by any means ;fair or foul (it is increasingly becoming foul) and can control the legislative process .You can delude yourself into thinking the truth is what you say it is or make it and because you have a majority you can force /rush bills through parliament that have not been tried tested or proved to have any merit let alone true by any debates worthy of the name and thus can enable corrupt and perverted laws to enforce P olitical C onformity upon one and all .
    The redefinition of marriage by law is an abomination and contrary to the Word of God the Will of God and the Way of God . and with much else this Parliament is doing will sooner or later feel Gods displeasure as too the country who elected them.

    I suspect but do not know that the USA is also having to endure much that is contrary to God.

    "Wickedness is on every side when vile men are exalted " Psalm 12

    in Christ

  8. Any commentary on the discussion in the video? Agreements? Disagreements?
  9. That was his point. You won't find a specific reference where Christ condemned homosexuality (or pedophilia/polygamy/bestiality/etc). But he does speak specifically on what marriage, so it follows that these things are wrong. He was arguing against those who claimed it was OK.

    I said theological argument because, today anyway, we have marriage under a religious institution and marriage under the State. Marriage under religion, under God, is the more important, more serious subject.
    Silk likes this.
  10. You don't teach errors you teach what the trueth and by the truth you know error .

    In Christ
    Silk likes this.
  11. The idea that homosexuality is on par with that by which all of life testifies as to what si righr. Is absurd.

    There is a world of difference between ALL men being equal before or under the law . and making homosexuality equal in law to that which is not.
    For if you take the worlds belief that evolution is the primary principle of life . Then by that law they say they honour and teach in all schools .Homosexuality must be a new evolutionary branch . For it is also asserted that such are born that way.
    If then they were it can be seen and understood that this new branch is a dead end and that by natural selection they will all die out ,For they cannot reproduce themselves .
    The only way they can reproduce is in the form of corruption. That si to say corruption corrupts and feeds on that which is not yet corrupted.
    How then is corruption equal with that which is not corrupted? and how is one branch of 'evolution' that cannot reproduce itself be equal with that which can?
    By their own law then, they condemn themselves and prove the scripture that "there is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the ways thereof are the ways of death"

    But as evolution is also an absurdity that denies God and nature and all of true science some revert to saying God created them as such.
    But what god?
    Clearly not of the Bible .Who is the only one worthy of the name ............................ GOD . For not only has God declared it an abomination to Him. But that all of scripture opposes such .Doctrinally theologically and spiritually
    Let alone the body of the individual that speaks or testifies against their assertion.
    Two people of the same sex can not be in a union or made one or married . They can only agree together to live in corruption.

    But the same Parliament in the UK that upholds the lie in law has also rejected the christian union of the UK . Desiring only the form of it and not the substance .
    As too they have accepted and uphold that other immaculate conception the so called EU. That is a union in name only and si no more a union that then old USSR was .
    So as the majority in the House of Commons "do not do God" Perhaps no one should be surprised .
    But on that basis we should expect great storms and I think an earthquake as well and one more than will shake a few roof tiles .
    For making such laws that are so contrary to the Will of God .the way of God and the Word of God cannot but receive Gods displeasure sooner or later .

    In Christ
  12. This too shall pass...
    Gay marriage is nothing new...
    This isn't the first time a society or culture has tried it out... Nero married a 14 year old boy.....

    The thing that really worries me, though is when the Church starts being a proponent of Sin... We never CHAMPION Sin.... We don't purposefully enable sinners to sin MORE... Whether it's pride, gossip, greed, or bored people wanting to experiment with various flavors of sex....

    See... What happens when we walk down that road? We glorify SELF... What I want is the most important thing... We stop seeking Repentance... We stop Overcoming! Obedience to God takes second position to narcissism....

    And... That's where we are at now.
    Silk likes this.
  13. Rofl...missed that about Nero. Thanks. But on the whole, I think society thru the ages did not countenance or approve outright same gender marriages.
  14. Amen! And the end game is to get rid of marriage altogether!
  15. It cannot be so easyly dismissed . For the UK has been given so much more than any other country in the world .Saving Israel. To them that have been given much the more is required.
    This Parliament will and needs must learn what the kings of England had to learn . and in deed and more than once also that the people have had to learn. Both at high cost that the truth is not what you make it .
    You suggest that nothing iks new and Nero etc. But then look at Nero then and Rome and what happened to it.
    If we embrace what they embraced .It is absurd to think we will not escape what they have not.
    In Christ
  16. There is nothing new under the sun isn't an assumption, but a fact according to the scriptures. No one is saying to embrace it, so please don't put words into people's mouths.
  17. All I said was that it cannot be so easily dismissed as "nothing new under the sun"

    Consider this . If the church is the salt of the earth and the salt is to stop the meat rotting or corrupting . How is it that all around you see corruption and the meat rotting increasing? The state of the country reflects the state of the church. That has lost not only its flavour but also the fire it once had.
    The lack in the church is reflected in the lack in the world.
    and while it can be said that Noah preached righteousness for 125 years and only 8 got saved
    I don't think that can perfectly be applied to the situation we face.

    in Christ
  18. That's where we're going these days. At least the Anglican Church, the Episcopal Church, some of the ABCUSA, The Presbyterian Church (most), Adventists, the Lutheran Church, and the list goes on.

    When large quantities of Christians decide something that is objectively sinful is OK, society begins to go forward with it. It's a problem.
  19. Sir, no offense, but you always write like we're disagreeing - and not just with me. The end times will be unlike anything ever before and never again. I was only quoting Ecc.
  20. Sure I can, because there is nothing new under the sun....

    This is NOT the first time society has tried stupid, self destructive things..... And.. The reason it won't work out in the long run is ALSO the same reason why it never worked out in the long run before.....

    But... That's society... We should expect that sort of thing to happen in society because Man is fallen.....

    My greater worry is the state of our churches, which in general could be categorized as "Laeodecia"...
    See, the hallmark of Laeodecia is the CHURCH actively stomping out the zeal and the fire for God from within... The Church labeling those with Zeal and Fire as "Troublemakers"..... Why? Because they are trying to please society and culture.. They are afraid of what Society will say about them.... Bigot! Intolerant! Crusader! Jesus freak! They are afraid of the fallout and repercussions... The reason Laeodecia worries me is that it's the end of the road as far as Jesus is concerned... Once you get to Laeodecia - the only hope is for Individuals with fire and zeal to leave and start something new...

    The outside world is ALWAYS going to label us as troublemakers and always has.... That's because we don't go along with their program.... but... The trouble is when the Church starts listening to THEM rather than to God....

    We as a church must not allow the World to set our agenda... That's called "Provocation".... Trust me - they aren't doing it as a favor to help us win souls or to be friendly or to help us further our influence... Provocation is specifically done to goad an enemy to fight on YOUR terms.... To give yourself the largest possible advantage by controlling the entire engagement or lack thereof...

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