Discussion in 'Holy Spirit Baptism and Living' started by blessed09, Oct 20, 2013.
Like I said, here we go again!
Tongues falls into the category of prophecy, often.
Sis, I've thought about this all day, I'm not going to argue this subject with you, but I am going to give just two examples of this doctrine in our church, ...and please, you tell me how this helped them in their lives and what to do.
There is a young girl in the youth group (told that being baptized with the Holy Spirit she would speak in tongues, she believes she has received the baptism) at seventeen she had a boyfriend who worked on a cargo ship that took supplies to the outer islands, since he was gone much of the time she not only visited him when he was home, but stayed in his apartment when he was gone, ...surprise, surprise, she ended up pregnant, but kept it hidden from her parents, the church and her friends (she's quite slim and wore large flowing clothes), she gave birth in the apartment all alone, did every thing necessary for a woman that has given birth to do all by herself, ...how did we learn she gave birth, ..her father found her baby strangled to death by her own hands, hidden in his banana trees. She was arrested for murder in the first degree, went to trial and the jury asked her why she had done it, her reply (now remember, this is a church with this doctrine), I didn't find any love from my parents, from my friends or from my church, I was afraid they would judge me for getting pregnant!!!! The secular jury showed more compassion on her than the church and acquitted her, saying she has suffered enough in her young life and will have to live with the memory of what she has done for the rest of it, ...she goes back home and the mother rags on her, she leaves to go live with the boyfriend, gets pregnant again but this time keeps the baby but looses the boyfriend, when speaking to her there is such a deep depression we are worried for her, she was filled with the Holy Spirit, she spoke in tongues (not!), she's been to the top of her religious life, ...what would you say to this precious lost soul?
There is a young man 18 years old in the youth group, he is very proficient in playing the drums, his desire was to play in the worship band, however was told he couldn't because he wasn't baptized, so he was baptized and came up muttering and started playing in the band, now let's look at the fruit, never brings a Bible to church, only comes to church when it's his turn to play, the Sundays when he isn't playing he is pursing secular pursuits, when I talk to him about the Gospel he is not interested because he was baptized and speaks in tongues (not!), ...........what would you say to this precious lost soul?
Speaking in tongues is no measure of one's level of sanctification---it's a GIFT! Along with any gift comes some responsibility in its use to bring glory to God. One cannot sneer at the gift or the Giver (by doing so) because one sees the lack of fruit or rotten fruit in those who claim to be believers.
To these spiritually poor people I would recommend getting down on their knees and getting right with God.
You didn't answer my question, ...because of this doctrine they believe and are convinced by their experience they are right with God.
After clearing that up, what would you say (what's left to say?) to these two precious lost souls?
My answer stands. Were they really convinced they were right with God? If so, just like so many other deceived people, I would tell them the same thing: Get right with God. Wouldn't you?
I dont get the relation Gene..we see that have been baptised in the Spirit, that speaking in tounges can be "carnal" just as Paul warned..and that even these people are yet subject to the lust of the flesh and deceptions of satan as the scriptures teach and show...so these examples of yours only show the weaknesses of the church (that these people where in) and show no evidence against this gift, or the purpose and power of this gift as used by those who are "spiritual"
Do you know the end from the beginning? Can you see the end results of the Holy Spirits power in their lives? Is God able to make all things work together for the good to those who love God. Never judge the beginning as the end.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.
Rom 8:27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
You are still beating around the bush!
These precious kids are basing their salvation on an experience, not on the Word and you say the doctrine of the experience is Biblical, okay, assuming you are correct and you are in the church with them and have taught them this doctrine, what would you say too them now, when it's so evident they haven't been filled with the Holy Spirit, even though they think they have spoken in tongues?
I'm not arguing the doctrine and I'm not saying you are wrong, I asking you for help, what would you say to them?
I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying brother, and yes the church is weak, even worse, it's Laodicean, in the 20 years we have been going to the church we've been kicked out three times by three different pastors, each time it has been because I have simply asked, can you show me that in the Word?
Like I said to Euphemia, this isn't intended as an argument about doctrine, it's too late for that with these kids, the question now is how can we get a hook into them once they think they have had it all that the church has to offer?
Brother, I know what you are saying and believe me, we have been praying for the Lord's intervention, that He would send a revival. This church actually started in my wife's home, she and her cousin were the first converts of a French missionary and the Lord started a church with them, expanding through her family, parents saved, aunts and uncles saved, cousins saved, it grew until they needed a building and the Lord provided that for them through an American AoG church with three American pastors that stayed for 6 years, but when the mantle was passed to a local, that's when the troubles started and that's when the Lord brought me into the scene, in the 20 years I have been associated with this church I have met literally hundreds of people that once went to this church, spoke in tongues, but have walked away from it thinking they have met the Lord when in actuality, you know (because I have respect for you as my brother in Christ and the wisdom you bring to this forum) they have had only a carnal experience.
That is where I'm coming from with the experience of these two kids, how do we reach them, what can we say to them once they have been taught they have had it all and it turned out too be only like cotton candy in their mouths, ...they are turned of by religion.
Brother, I know that where God is working by His Spirit that is where the Devil will try his hardest to destroy. That is not to say we can not have peace in our local gatherings. Paul eventually got rid of his thorn in the flesh, as it tells us in the very last chapter of Acts where he preached the Gospel with out hindrance from any one.
Having young brothers and sisters in the Lord in a Church can cause some disturbances as they struggle to over come the flesh. They need time to learn the ways of the Spirit, and they for sure will fall, and start over many times in their walk. The good part is that God who started a good work in them will bring it to completion.
I don't beat around any bush. We are to look at the fruit---obviously the fruit of their lives is lacking. They need to be reminded of their salvation and about repentance, and keeping short accounts with God. Obviously, as you say, they were being complacent, thinking that they had it all by virtue of their Holy Ghost experience. It's sad that their leaders didn't notice their complacency and deal with it. Someone has missed the boat in that aspect.
People do experience shipwrecked lives, you know.
Brother, you are missing my point, these people are NOT born again, they think they ARE because they have been erroneously taught about the Holy Spirit, ...it's just false AoG doctrine.
My question still stands, what can we say to someone that has been deceived into thinking they are saved by false doctrine but are not?
Let me ask a question which is related to this topic.. But unrelated to the theme of this topic.. Have you guys heard about Kundalini Awakening? I forgot the guy's name.. he speaks with an European accent.. He has written books and has some lengthy video in YouTube.. It is disturbing to see those videos.. It makes me wonder (not just wonder, but really burdened) to about all these young kids going behind ecstatic experience and calling it being slain in the Spirit.. I agree with Gene.. They think they are saved because of their experiences..
Remind them of their salvation??? What salvation????? They were taught that when they received the Holy Spirit they would talk in tongues, they were dunked or prayed over and started muttering, there wasn't any Gospel message, if you missed what I wrote in my other posts, this church is a Laodician church, you know, the church where Jesus is standing on the outside asking to come in, the one He will vomit out of His mouth, ....and what leadership, funny you should say that, ya sittin' down, the leadership in the church are women, ...the pastors have been and are just milk toast puppets.
Now, stop beating around the bush and tell me what YOU, personally (don't talk to me I'm not the one in this condition, talk to them), they are standing in front of you, and let's add in that you are the one that taught them this doctrine would say to these precious kids who think they are saved going to Heaven because they believe what you preach about when someone is filled with the Holy Spirit they MUST speak in tongues and they have had an experience, ...albeit not the HOLY Spirit!
It's easy to type on a keyboard what we believe, it's something else to have to deal with it one on one with someone personally.
Yes, I have it on a CD, he is Ukrainian, ...folks, I have seen it with my own eyes, he's small in stature, he went and touched a young man, could of been a college football player, not some wimp, and then he blew at him and knocked him backwards about four feet.
There are demonic forces and as we approach the end they are becoming more prevalent just like Paul said they would, and whenever someone is taught false doctrine you can be sure the author of the false doctrine will be there with some show of force or power to authenticate it.
Anytime you have a group of people together, and they call themselves Christians there will be true believers and false believers sitting right next to each other. The purpose of the Word of God is to separate the sheep from the goats. That is what Jesus said he brought to us which was a sword which divides and separates. Those in the church that are leaders are responsible for what is being taught. If the person teaching or preaching is not called of God into that position you will wind up with all kinds of weird doctrine. There is a counterfeit to everything thing the Holy Spirit brings into the life of a true blue Christian. The baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues is of God. I can not see how anybody in the Body of Christ could live without it! Wrong believing comes from wrong teaching, and that is why Paul instructs Timothy on how to discern those who are called of God into the teaching ministry.
Brother, I respect you and I love you with the Love of Christ, I believe in speaking in tongues, both in the congregation and in a person's personal life, but I disagree with you that every Spirit filled child of God must speak in tongues, I don't speak in tongues, but (now I'm speaking foolishly), concerning the sign gifts, Lord has performed miracles through my hands, and has healed a person through the laying on of my hands, and most and more important to me is He has empowered me for the use of the three Gifts He has given me when the elders in my church laid hand on me to receive the filling of the Holy Spirit before I left.
Again, that is not the subject of my question.
Do you know they never received Jesus Christ as Saviour? Why do you make that judgment?
As I said before, I would remind them of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and encourage them to get on their knees and get right with God. Why don't you do that? It's not hard. What are you preaching to them?
I never preach that person MUST speak in tongues---ever. So, you've got your wires crossed. There is a gift of tongues for people to use in the church and then there is a prayer language that ALL CAN have---if they want it. If you don't have this ability or even don't want it, it makes no mind to me. It is not a salvational issue.
What's with the attitude? You seem rather combative.