Re-thinking "Job"

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Ooops - apologies.....I looked up the wrong verse. Job seems to be saying that seeing brings hearing to a whole new level and as @JohnC posted: he felt unworthy. This was just after the behemoth section. I agree with you that Job is a very valueable book.

Job 42:1
Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
Job 42:2
I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
Job 42:3
Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
Job 42:4
Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 42:5
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Job 42:6
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Even more interesting, even though Job uttered about things he did not understand(which by the way all of which belongs to God), God never told him "Hey, collect your sheep and offer" like He did the friends.
But Job recognised where he walked wrong, and acted accordingly.
 
Even more interesting, even though Job uttered about things he did not understand(which by the way all of which belongs to God), God never told him "Hey, collect your sheep and offer" like He did the friends.
But Job recognised where he walked wrong, and acted accordingly.

Yes - I noted that very thing in post #58. Sacrifice for their (3 friends) sin/folly. As I read it, God said He would listen to Job's prayers about it. In my humble view, Job had said he would ask God face-to-face whether he wasn't righteous/innocent of bringing on these calamities upon himself. Face to face with the whirlwind, he regretted what appears to be a boast. Everyone seems to forget that only God, the reader, and Satan knew/know what is going on behind the scenes. God calls this and chides that who is Job to claim to know even a little of what God knows. He is saying no one - not the sufferer or those other human beings who witness such - have a position to blame God or contrasting, the sufferer who has not sinned. The calamities - the children lost, the wealth loss, and the health loss - all happened prior to this conversation. It seems rather obvious that the lesson is: Sometimes bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. We handed over dominion to the planet to Satan through Adam. It's classic that Job is a favorite of God and was targetted because of it.
 
And... This brings us to an interesting thought.... When the thrones are brought out and the books are opened.... and ALL must come before The Throne in judgment....

Will you stand tall - full of pride, narcissism, and self-will... Standing before Jesus as the Demons did to negotiate a better hell to be cast into (Matt 8:31) or selfishly begging that others leave their place in heaven so that they can come and serve you in Hell (Luke 16:24)....

Or will you desire nothing more than what Job did - to worship before His face?

Thanks
 
Yes - I noted that very thing in post #58. Sacrifice for their (3 friends) sin/folly. As I read it, God said He would listen to Job's prayers about it. In my humble view, Job had said he would ask God face-to-face whether he wasn't righteous/innocent of bringing on these calamities upon himself. Face to face with the whirlwind, he regretted what appears to be a boast. Everyone seems to forget that only God, the reader, and Satan knew/know what is going on behind the scenes. God calls this and chides that who is Job to claim to know even a little of what God knows. He is saying no one - not the sufferer or those other human beings who witness such - have a position to blame God or contrasting, the sufferer who has not sinned. The calamities - the children lost, the wealth loss, and the health loss - all happened prior to this conversation. It seems rather obvious that the lesson is: Sometimes bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. We handed over dominion to the planet to Satan through Adam. It's classic that Job is a favorite of God and was targetted because of it.

I'm sure that Job and his new family were more close to each other. He could relate his experiences to them. They had a loved one who had suffered mightily. Isn't this something we can do? Support the hurting and grieving ones that we know?
 
I'm sure that Job and his new family were more close to each other. He could relate his experiences to them. They had a loved one who had suffered mightily. Isn't this something we can do? Support the hurting and grieving ones that we know?

I know it doesn't say....but did God restore the same or new children? But I think you point out a very important point here. Scripture says the friends came to mourn and comfort but they didn't do that. Think of the practically nil compassion or mercy for the drunk driver. If there is a death, prison sentence. We have less compassion, mercy, or comfort for those who we think caused their own problems.
So YES, I think we should try to comfort and help and show compassion for all. And those we know too (grin).
 
That protective hedge must not have been very strong if Job could just tear it down like that.

Just admit you don't like the fact that evil happens to people without them being the cause of it.

Brother Cosmic,
The Blessing of God is what Job stepped out side of and it weas satan who called it a protective hedge. So when any of us step out side of it we limit what God can do on our behalf. Getting into fear or doubt and unbelief are some of the things that are seen as stepping out of faith or The Blessing.

We can not simply go around and say things and do what ever we want and expect God to be backing us. It just does not work that way. We have our part and that is being true or obedient unto His word. When we chose to not trust in faith and placve our hearts and mind or our eyes on the storm or fear etc then we open the door for the enemy. Our enemy the devil only has certain ways he can get to us and that is one of the biggest.

Bad things happen to good people when good people make bad choices.
Blessings
Jim
 
There is nothing in Job indicating he stepped out of faith. He remained faithful during his suffering. Yes he got depressed and started saying things he shouldn't have, but he still knew God was good and he never charged him with wrongdoing.

Why would God call Job upright and blameless if he was fearful and doubting? Satan wanted to test Job's faithfulness and God allowed him to do that. This didn't happen because Job had fear and doubt.

Brother Cosmic hello,
God called job blameless and upright because job did not curse God. This was satans plan all along. Any time any of us steps out side of faith and into doubt and fear we limit what God can do.

I do not see how you feel job knows God is good so this over writes stepping out of trusty and into fear and doubt. Could you explain this to me so perhaps I might understand what you mean.
Blessings
 
Brother Cosmic hello,
God called job blameless and upright because job did not curse God. This was satans plan all along. Any time any of us steps out side of faith and into doubt and fear we limit what God can do.

I do not see how you feel job knows God is good so this over writes stepping out of trusty and into fear and doubt. Could you explain this to me so perhaps I might understand what you mean.
Blessings
'we limit what God can do"

I just don't believe that. I actually stay in faith and love of my father knowing he has my back if I fall. Grace doesn't cause us to be sinful but it causes us to be greatful.

Job knows God is good because he worshipped him even after such a horrible event as he went through. In the end God says Job spoke rightly of him.

After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. (‭Job‬ ‭42‬:‭7‬ NIV)

At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship and said: “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised.” (‭Job‬ ‭1‬:‭20-21‬ NIV)
 
'we limit what God can do"

I just don't believe that. I actually stay in faith and love of my father knowing he has my back if I fall. Grace doesn't cause us to be sinful but it causes us to be greatful.

Job knows God is good because he worshipped him even after such a horrible event as he went through. In the end God says Job spoke rightly of him.

After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. (‭Job‬ ‭42‬:‭7‬ NIV)

At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship and said: “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised.” (‭Job‬ ‭1‬:‭20-21‬ NIV)

There is a point I'd like to make. Our brothers and sisters throughout this world are being whipped, told to renounce their faith in Christ, and being beheaded. Job was not asked to make the ultimate sacrifice for the Lord. Let's pray that when Martyrdom comes to the U.S. we will have the faith of Job.
 
There is a point I'd like to make. Our brothers and sisters throughout this world are being whipped, told to renounce their faith in Christ, and being beheaded. Job was not asked to make the ultimate sacrifice for the Lord. Let's pray that when Martyrdom comes to the U.S. we will have the faith of Job.

I would like to add that Job's "friends" really weren't friendly. With friends like this, who needs enemies? God does work all things together for our good: in pleasant times and in not-so-pleasant times. God is faithful to us. We need to be faithful to Him.
 
I would like to add that Job's "friends" really weren't friendly. With friends like this, who needs enemies? God does work all things together for our good: in pleasant times and in not-so-pleasant times. God is faithful to us. We need to be faithful to Him.
Although Job's three friends did criticize and accuse him people forget that they came to mourn with him and comfort him. They sat with him for seven days before with started their speeches. These are not the actions of worthless friends that don't care. I think we are often too hard on Job's friends. I think that many of us would and do act in a similar fashion. After however long of mourning and comforting and trying to figure out what is going on we start to reason and attempt to fix the problem...often without godly wisdom and understanding.
 
Although Job's three friends did criticize and accuse him people forget that they came to mourn with him and comfort him. They sat with him for seven days before with started their speeches. These are not the actions of worthless friends that don't care. I think we are often too hard on Job's friends. I think that many of us would and do act in a similar fashion. After however long of mourning and comforting and trying to figure out what is going on we start to reason and attempt to fix the problem...often without godly wisdom and understanding.

Where are you getting that they did any comfort & mourning with Job before the conversation? Sitting shiva was not part of Jewish ritual at this time period. The friends were required to make a sacrifice for their sin against Job. I do agree, however, that all too often that in attempts to try and help friends, we pass judgement on them without fixing anything.
 
Where are you getting that they did any comfort & mourning with Job before the conversation? Sitting shiva was not part of Jewish ritual at this time period. The friends were required to make a sacrifice for their sin against Job. I do agree, however, that all too often that in attempts to try and help friends, we pass judgement on them without fixing anything.
From Job 2:11-13. Here it says that they came to mourn with him and comfort him and sat with him for 7 days with him.
 
It says in those verses only that they came to comfort and mourn....they rent their clothes from a distance upon seeing Job....I don't recall a 7 day period and it's been a month since I reread Job. I'm going now to look but I don't recall that they showed any comfort either. When I sit with friends who hav lost loved ones, I don't generally look to see what that individual has done to cause that loss. Maybe it's just me? Years ago, I had a friend who was lovesick over a gal who did not return his feelings. Because I meant to be his friend, I told him, repeatedly, that he should move on. He finally told me I was being no help to him and he was right. He could not let it go until he could resolve his feelings on his own. All I needed to do was be there for him with support and love through it. Which is what I did. I have no argument that Job's friends meant well....just that they were not helping/comforting or supporting him. And that's what he needed.
 
Apologies....
Job_2:13
So they sat down with him upon the ground seven days and seven nights, and none spake a word unto him: for they saw that his grief was very great.
 
Again, tho...while their intentions may have been good - their attempts to help fix things made matters worse for Job and caused him to speak out recklessly in trying to prove he did nothing to deserve all that happened.
 
Again, tho...while their intentions may have been good - their attempts to help fix things made matters worse for Job and caused him to speak out recklessly in trying to prove he did nothing to deserve all that happened.
I agree Silk. I was just pointing out that his friends were better friends that people commonly think them to be. Just wanting to present a more fair portrayal of them. They were probably just thinking that they were helping him.
 
I hear what you are saying @Mykuhl and I have always thought of Job's friends as meaning well but not being helpful. I made my living counseling people (in the criminal justice system) for 27+ years. In the normal course of human situations, you do have to look and take responsibility for the situations and problems resulting from the choices we make. It is singularly unhelpful to insist that someone did something they didn't do or had no control over to blame them for whatever pain they're in. The most obvious example is a mother who goes inside to answer a telephone call, leaving her child in the yard and then something terrible happens. Mom doesn't need for you to tell her she shouldn't have left the child and is already feeling guilt over it. Job's friends were doing what people to this day still do - they blame the victim for whatever happened. To me, Job is all about bad things happen to basically good people. Are they perfect? No...no one ever is. In an effort to forestall anything bad happening to us....we say we would never do whatever they did. But the real world doesn't work like that. Bad things happen - for a believer - God makes it right eventually, either in this world but of a certainty - in the next. Job's friends were trying to allay their own fears that bad things could happen to them, like Job, even tho they had done nothing to warrant it. Therfore Job must have done something to fall out of favor with God. Satan rules this domain and he is responsible for bad things happening to good people and good things happening to bad people. We - not God - gave Satan this dominion. We have to keep faith in the good times AND the bad. In my experience it is the bad times where I learn more and my reliance on God goes stronger. That, IMO, is what the book of Job is all about.
 
I hear what you are saying @Mykuhl and I have always thought of Job's friends as meaning well but not being helpful. I made my living counseling people (in the criminal justice system) for 27+ years. In the normal course of human situations, you do have to look and take responsibility for the situations and problems resulting from the choices we make. It is singularly unhelpful to insist that someone did something they didn't do or had no control over to blame them for whatever pain they're in. The most obvious example is a mother who goes inside to answer a telephone call, leaving her child in the yard and then something terrible happens. Mom doesn't need for you to tell her she shouldn't have left the child and is already feeling guilt over it. Job's friends were doing what people to this day still do - they blame the victim for whatever happened. To me, Job is all about bad things happen to basically good people. Are they perfect? No...no one ever is. In an effort to forestall anything bad happening to us....we say we would never do whatever they did. But the real world doesn't work like that. Bad things happen - for a believer - God makes it right eventually, either in this world but of a certainty - in the next. Job's friends were trying to allay their own fears that bad things could happen to them, like Job, even tho they had done nothing to warrant it. Therfore Job must have done something to fall out of favor with God. Satan rules this domain and he is responsible for bad things happening to good people and good things happening to bad people. We - not God - gave Satan this dominion. We have to keep faith in the good times AND the bad. In my experience it is the bad times where I learn more and my reliance on God goes stronger. That, IMO, is what the book of Job is all about.
Where are you getting that they did any comfort & mourning with Job before the conversation? Sitting shiva was not part of Jewish ritual at this time period. The friends were required to make a sacrifice for their sin against Job. I do agree, however, that all too often that in attempts to try and help friends, we pass judgement on them without fixing anything.

What is "sitting Shiva"? Interestingly enough there is a Hindu god called "Shiva."
 
It is a custom of Jewish mourning. I saw 7 days and thought, huh? I forgot it was in Job and actually Job's friends - that was the only comfort they showed Job.....silence.
http://www.shiva.com/learning-center/understanding/how-shiva-observed/

How is Shiva Observed
When and How Long

Shiva begins immediately following the burial and lasts for seven days, ending after the morning service on the seventh day. Shiva is not observed on the Sabbath (Friday at sundown through Saturday at sundown) or holidays. While shiva is the seven-day period following burial – and many mourners do choose to observe shiva for the full seven days – it is common to find that some families may only sit shiva for one-to-three days, depending on many factors, including level of observance or the deceased’s instructions or wishes.
Where
A shiva is traditionally observed in the home of the deceased, but may also be observed in the residence of an immediate family member. In today’s world, many families are dispersed and live in cities throughout the country. As a result, it is becoming more common for a shiva to take place simultaneously in multiple locations.
Mourner Observances
Whether you are sitting shiva or visiting a shiva home, you will encounter various types of observances: Some are traditional while others are more liberally interpreted. Below, you will see the definitions of some of the more traditional fulfillments.
Staying Home
Mourners do not work during the shiva period and for the most part stay at home. During the shiva period, mourners also do not participate in parties, concerts, shows, movies, or similar events that are celebratory in nature.
Mourners are to focus on their loss in order to be able to gradually heal, and by leaving the shiva house, mourners are surrounded by distractions and more likely to lose focus.
Sitting on a Low Chair
Mourners may also be sitting on low stools or boxes as a means of expressing grief. Furthermore, this practice symbolizes the humility and pain of the mourner being “brought low” by the passing of a loved one.
Covered Mirrors
Visitors to a shiva home may also see that mirrors are covered. Although there are many explanations for this practice, the most widely accepted is that a mourner should not be concerned with his or her personal appearance at this time. In addition, while in mourning, some people will not wear makeup, men won’t shave or wear new clothes, and some will not wear shoes for the same reason.
Burning a Candle

A tall candle traditionally burns in the shiva home for seven days as a sign of memorial.
Mourner Attire


A mourner will usually be wearing a torn black ribbon on his or her clothing. This practice, known as a keriah (or “kriah”), symbolizes the tear in the mourner’s heart for his or her loss. In traditional communities, a person’s actual clothing may be torn near the heart.
This ritual calls for the mourner to wear a torn garment during the shiva, while on Shabbat, High Holy Days and festivals, no public signs of mourning are worn.
Prayer Service


In the Jewish religion, there are certain prayers recited to honor of the passing of loved ones, celebrate their life, and help with coping during the mourning process. Such prayers include the Mourner’s Kaddish and the Prayer of Mercy (or “Kel Maleh Rachamim”).
Cleansing


Upon returning to the cemetery, there may be a pitcher of water outside the front door to wash one’s hands. This custom has many sources, but the most common reason is to symbolically wash off any impurities associated with the cemetery and death.
 
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