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Re-thinking "Job"

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Steve Campbell, Jun 8, 2015.

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  1. #1 Steve Campbell, Jun 8, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2015
    For years, my perspective on the life of Job, and its relevance to my life, was that Job was a righteous man who didn't deserve what he got, but God allowed Satan to mess with him, without being able to touch his soul, so that Satan could see just how faithful Job, as a human, could be; and so that we could learn how to go thru suffering like Job, to the Glory of God, and as examples to others.

    Then yesterday, I stumbled on a message by a guy who I had not heard before, (name I've forgotten right now, but could find out if you pushed me), who said that Job was prideful (32:1) and what he went thru, allowed by God, was a crucible to bring Job to a place of humility.

    Elihu, the last of those who was there with Job, who had sat patiently waiting for the others to finish their rants, begins the process of letting Job hear the truth of the matter, and then God finishes the argument with "where were YOU?!"

    I have to re-think this........I have to re-examine what really IS the message of "Job." (Light bulbs going off everywhere............lol).

    clark thompson likes this.
  2. I think the key to understanding the book is found in what God said to Job's three friends in Job 42:7. The whole book needs to be closely studied in light of what God said: in what way did the three friends speak wrong of God, and Job speak right of Him? (I believe this refers to more than just Job's reply to God in chapters 40 and 42.)

    Aside from that, Elihu is different from the three friends. He does not accuse Job of sin leading to the suffering, but does accuse him of sin in how he responded to the suffering. His accusations sound very similar to God's - except God does not outright accuse Job of sin - He just interrogates Jobs with a bunch of very humbling questions.
  3. Be very careful with any perspective that rewrites Job such that God punished Job because of Job's sin.... It's a remnant of Prosperity Gospel/WOF that is very dangerous..... AKA - all suffering is precipitated by YOUR sin....

    The basic inversion is that it turns things around in that if Job is being punished BECAUSE of his sin - then his 3 friends were RIGHT and Job was WRONG.... and thus God is therefore a liar because God himself declares Job's 3 friends as speaking WRONG things pertaining to God.... AND God is a liar because God declares Job righteous to Satan in ch. 1 and 2 - BEFORE Job was tested...

    Thus ALSO - God would have no reason to restore any of Job's goods or family..... Rather, God is in effect showing His Justice - restoration of the things which were taken which Job did not deserve to lose... Think to the parable of The Rich man and Lazarus.... Lazarus had done nothing to earn his leprosy or his affliction - God was showing His Justice by restoring Lazarus' health and comfort to him which was taken away without cause.... On the other hand - The Rich man had done nothing to warrant his riches - and had abused and mistreated those "Below" him because of his perception that his riches meant he was beloved of God and Righteous... God's justice was ALSO then giving The Rich Man the affliction that he deserved but never received....
    KingJ, Silk and Fadingman says Amen and like this.
  4. Hello brother Soupy.. I don't think we have exchanged messages before.. I think this is the first time I am addressing or replying to any of your posts directly.. I have been reading your posts in other threads.. You have been a blessing for this forum..

    You are absolutely right! There are 2 perspectives of looking at the book of Job. Whether Job brought this on himself or he did not have anything to do with this. That is what it ultimately boils down to. This is such a crucial aspect as it would change a believer's perspective on the topic of suffering. There are other passages about suffering, but nothing like book of Job! Because this seems to get to the reason for suffering like no other passage in Bible.

    My personal conviction is that Job did not bring this on himself. It was satan who got permission from God to test the faithfulness of Job. God calls Job as righteous. I think that is a direct answer that Job did not bring it on himself. Through all this, Job did learn to be more humble. But I don't think Job's pride caused all this. We have talked about this topic extensively in this forum as well. I am sure there are lot of people here who disagree with me here :D
    Silk likes this.
  5. In my opinion... The book of Job is like stumbling on a gold mine.
    Yes, the three friends go on a bit even though they should see they are fighting a loosing battle.
    But there is so much in this book to teach. So much revealed about God for us. Gold indeed.

    See what Job admits in 42:3-6
  6. The book of Job is about how God is God and we are not. God himself said Job was a righteous man, and he brings this to satan's attention and gives him permission to ruin Job's life. Then Job talks and argues with his friends until finally God swoops in and says "Who are you?". Finally Job says in chapter 42:1-3

    Then Job replied to the Lord:
    “I know that you can do all things;
    no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
    You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
    Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
    things too wonderful for me to know."

    Then at the end the LORD blesses Job doubly because he loves him.
  7. We talked about this on other threads, so here's my two cents:

    Eliphaz used religious nonsense to confront Job and so Job turned self-righteous. Then the other two outright accuse Job of doing wrong bringing up his children having paid for their sins, Job 8:4. Then Job turns on God, Job 10:2-3; 16:12. Then his friends rebut and then Job says "I am not inferior to you." In other words, they were in need of a Moderator ;)

    But Job points out their hypocrisy and defends God. Then Job falls into self pity. Then Eliphaz accuses Job of not fearing God. The Job turns on his friends as miserable comforters. And he cries out this prophetic statement about Jesus:

    Job 16:21(KJV)
    O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man [pleadeth] for his neighbour!

    So Job continues to defend his righteousness. Then his friend says how God punishes the wicked, implying Job sinned. THEN!! The truth comes out, Job calls out his friends and shows that they are puffed up showing themselves superior to him because they weren't "punished" by God. The very essences of hypocrisy being vomited onto Job. Job shows his faith in his Redeemer! Still, his friend berate him with accusations he must have done something wrong. Finally Eliphaz says that Job is a great sinner. Isn't that what we do? We quickly judge someone's condition as a matter of cause and effect! We quickly dismiss the truth for our own experiences and excuses, being self-righteous about our state. Then Eliphaz has the gall to say "repent and God will have mercy!" How many times have we heard that!? Job says he's innocent and what does his friends say? "Men cannot be holy in front of God!" Job replies that God is holy unsearchable and infinite. Job goes on to defend his integrity and that of God's. Then a bystander comes into the picture, Elihu, which is SO perfect! "Elihu" means "He is my God!" Son of "Barachel" (meaning (God blesses) the Buzite (hehehe means "Contempt"!) But OH what a message he has! He was so angry because they didn't give God the glory! He calls them all out for trying to be greater than God! He expounds a great truth: God speaks and man hears not, so God speaks in dreams so that man can repent! Oh Lord speak to me!!! Then Elihu speaks of Jesus:

    Job 33:23-24(KJV)
    If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.

    Then he shows God's plan of salvation! WOW!! Hallelujah!!

    Job 33:26(KJV)
    He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.

    Elihu says what Job's error was!

    Job 34:10(KJV)
    Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, [that he should do] wickedness; and [from] the Almighty, [that he should commit] iniquity.

    This is Job's sin, his error. Job 1:21"...The LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away..."

    So God calls him out on this:

    Job 40:1-2(ESV2011)
    And the LORD said to Job: “Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty? He who argues with God, let him answer it.”

    Job 40:7-8(ESV2011)
    “Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me. Will you even put me in the wrong? Will you condemn me that you may be in the right?

    So what was the error? Job blamed God. That's it. And so Job repented.

    Job 42:5-6(KJV)
    I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor [myself], and repent in dust and ashes.

    Job is the best example to all Christian forums: something bad happens and the debates begin, bantering back and forth the merits of this that and the other. Punch counter punch. In the end God speaks and puts all to shame. Anyone that says all this, or anything in their lives is God's fault, is a fool.

    Job 35:12-13(ESV2011)
    There they cry out, but he does not answer, because of the pride of evil men. Surely God does not hear an empty cry, nor does the Almighty regard it.

    Job 36:11-12(ESV2011)
    If they listen and serve him, they complete their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasantness. But if they do not listen, they perish by the sword and die without knowledge.

    There is only one cause and effect: choose life and live, choose death and die. Yep, it's that simple. God has given us EVERYTHING we need to prosper in Him giving Him and ONLY Him the glory!

    Job 37:24(ESV2011)
    Therefore men fear him; he does not regard any who are wise in their own conceit.”

    James 1:13-14(KJV)
    Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

    Proverbs 19:3(ESV2011)
    When a man's folly brings his way to ruin, his heart rages against the LORD.

    I hope this helps.

    Side note:

    Job 38:31(KJV)
    Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

    The Pleiades system is fixed and does not move from one another, yet the belt of Orion is flying apart! Job is a great book for the hidden treasures of God's creation!
    Angela333, Silk, Juk and 1 other person say Amen and like this.
  8. At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in WORSHIP and said: “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be PRAISED.” In all this, JOB DID NOT SIN by charging God with wrongdoing. (‭Job‬ ‭1‬:‭20-22‬ NIV)

    Job didn't sin when he said this, he fell to the ground in worship. God let satan attack Job, then Job questioned God, and that's why God said "He who argues with God, let him answer."
  9. I wanted to make a thread on this myself. Didn't God say that Job would not blame God for his losses? And Job did just that. A lot. Basically the whole way through, he blamed God. Then God had to come and set him straight because he was blaming Him so much. What does this mean?
  10. We all know what you think of God. You see Him like Zeus ready to strike down the innocent...
  11. Thanks, you answer my question. So do you think that Elihu is a good guy in all of this?
  12. The Bible says what it says. The Lord gives and he takes away, and the Bible clearly states Job DIDN'T sin in saying such.
    Klub likes this.
  13. You bet! Read what he says and Job's reaction and God's reaction!
    Juk likes this.
  14. Job sinned through fear. That is clear and he said so with his own lips of which he repented by his own lips.
  15. Okay, if that is true please give the verse where he repents of his sinful fear.

    If anything I'd say Job had a true faith that trusted God's goodness even in the midst of suffering, almost like Jesus in his. Job repented because he was speaking about concepts he was too ignorant of.

    You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’ Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. “You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.’ My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.” (‭Job‬ ‭42‬:‭3-6‬ NIV)
    KingJ likes this.
  16. Ironically - "He who argues with God, let him answer"....

    See - it's critical to realize that we do NOT have full visibility to God's plan... We have NO idea what God is planning for us or what He has in store.....

    See - what Job did not see was that GOD had ALREADY planned to restore to Job 7 fold what he had lost.......

    Now... What if Job had complained so bitterly, and had finally bent God's ear enough that God cut Satan's attacks short? Would God have STILL restored Job?

    and we need to consider that here as well.... Are you willing to forgo the blessings of God in the future to get an extra helping here today?

    See - Job helps to explain some of the subtext of Revelation - the Great Tribulation where the Devil is on earth and wreaking havoc..... Satan is cast to earth and is allowed to inflict terrible suffering, pain, and even death upon the faithful without cause.... They did not DESERVE that which was brought upon them.... But - as a result, God restores those faithful destroyed by Satan.... That's the First resurrection....

    There's also a hint of this in Romans 11:15-16 - where Paul talks about the restoration of the Jews as "Life from the dead"
    Silk likes this.
  17. His WIFE was no help, "curse God and die!!"
    Ravindran likes this.
  18. Job is the perfect example of why the prosperity Gospel is heresy. Bad things (in our eyes) happen to people who love the Lord, and guess what, God allows it.
    Yes Job was a sinner
    Yes Job loved the Lord
    God was still in control, and he still needs to be honored in the storm.

    If we were all punished based on our sins, we would be in a constant state of torment, we sin everyday. This is what Grace is for.
    KingJ, Silk and Arrie03 says Amen and like this.
  19. And he never did, he praised him instead. Don't believe those who told you his suffering was his own fault. The book of Job starts off by showing you it clearly wasn't because of him.

    In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. (‭Job‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬ NIV)

    Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.” (‭Job‬ ‭1‬:‭1, 8‬ NIV)

    These events took place right after stating these facts, so it was not because of Job's sin, but rather God's holy will. I hope you've come to have a better understanding, whether through my text or someone else's.
    Klub likes this.
  20. No, it was about cursing God, not blaming God. Job never cursed God. Even in his suffering, he wanted God to take his life before he cursed God (Job 6:8-10).

    God didn't say anything about what the outcome would be, but it is inferred: i don't think God wouldn't have allowed Satan to win and boast if He thought Job would fail the test.
    Arrie03 and Juk say Amen and like this.
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