re: Lazarus, the parable of the rich man and the beggar

Yes, the punishment is everlasting. But, what is the punishment? Eternal torment? NO, for Jesus would have had to go to that place of eternal torment and remain there in order for you to escape that punishment.
The punishment is..........drum roll please............DEATH! An everlasting, eternal DEATH from which there will be no resurrection.
I give up. You are choosing not to see.
 
Point by point:
  1. You can't assume Luke 16 is literal and then by that attempt to disprove Solomon's claim that "the dead know not anything." Also, Paul will "know even as (he) is known" in the resurrection, not in death, for "the dead know nothing."
  2. How in the world do you derive from the parable of the Unjust Judge, a parable concerning live people, evidence that the dead retain their memories?
  3. Revelation is "sent and SIGNIFIED (means "uses symbolism") by his angel to His servant John." How can the souls of the martyrs be "under the altar" when you say they are supposed to be "in Abraham's bosom"? Bro, I'll make it easy for you: Blood can't cry out, whether it be of the martyrs or of Abel. It is JUSTICE that is crying out, namely God's earnest desire to make right the wrong that has been done.
  4. Agreed
  5. This obviously takes place after the dead in Christ are raised to be with Him in heaven, and certainly not while they are yet in the grave and the prayers of the holy ones certainly don't refer to dead folks in the grave who possess no knowledge or ability to pray.
  6. How, pray tell, can a person completely engulfed in flames that is wailing and gnashing his teeth because of the immense, unspeakable pain he's experiencing suddenly stop and have a nice, lucid, thoughtful conversation about his concern for loved ones and the like? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? Try pressing just the tip of your pinky on a hot stove and then try and have a conversation with someone and see how well that goes.

Bro, the Word of God is not a buffet table in which we can pick the verses we like and leave the others behind.

Yes, the wicked shall be tormented "forever and ever", which Strong says means an "undefined, but not endless" period of time, for "there shall be no more death, nor crying, nor sorrow, neither shall there be anymore pain for the former things are passed away."

There is not a single verse that says the wicked put on immortality. To the contrary, Paul says that only those are SEEKING FOR IMMORTALITY now will receive it later. How in the world do you conclude that the wicked who do everything BUT SEEK FOR IMMORTALITY will one day be the recipients of it? It is a gift that is given only to the righteous, while the wicked will "be as though they had not been" along with the devil to whom God said, "Never shalt thou be anymore."

1.
And YOU can not assume Luke is not literal as IT IS the Lord Jesus who is explaining the story. He would have precedence over all other Scriptures.

Luke 9:35......
"And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him!”

2.
Luke18:7.....
And shall not God avenge His own, which cry day and night unto Him, though He bear long with them".

The servants of the Lord remember the earth, and that they had lived on it. They recall that they had suffered and died at the hands of oppressors, and they remembered the divine promise of being vindicated eventually which is promised in Luke 18:7.

3.
Not so again brother.
Ephesians 4:8-10 (ESVV......
"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things."

That’s what Jesus meant when He said in Revelation 1:18.....
“I am he who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.”

The truth is that Scripture supports that Hades included both hell AND heaven (Abraham’s bosom, or what Jesus and many of the everyday Jews of his day referred to as Paradise). According to Jesus, in between the two was “A great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.” (Luke 16:26)

There’s even more biblical evidence that Paradise may not have been in heaven at that time. Remember, just three days after Jesus told the thief that he would be in Paradise with Him, He asked Mary Magdalene, who first saw Him in resurrected form, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the My Father.” (John 20:17) If had not yet ascended to the Father, then Paradise was not located in heaven.

4.
Thank God! The only question I guess is WHEN?

5.
NOPE!
You had said the dead do not praise the Lord. The verses I gave you say just the opposite my friend. It is what it is!!!!

Revelation 5......
13 "Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: “To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever.”

Revelation 5:8......
8 "When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones."

6.
My dear friend and brother. I do not have the ability to even contemplate the love of God and neither do you or anyone else. I can say I believe it and grasp it but in truth none of us can explain it.

I can not explain how God parted the Red Sea. But The key is not that I have to explain it but all I have to do is believe it.
I can not explain how God spoke to Moses out of a burning bush ....... but I believe that He did.
I can not explain how the three Hebrews survived the fiery furnace....but I believe they did.
I can not explain how Daniel survived the lions den.............................but I believe he did.
I can not even explain why God saved me from my sin and changed my eternal destiny.......but I know that He did!!!!

Just because we can not explain something does not mean we make fun of it or poke silly comments at those who do believe.

Hebrews 11:6 says this about our differences on this.........
"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him".

My dear friend, because you do not have the faith to believe and accept the words of the Lord Jesus Christ does not mean that the rest of us have to accept what you think. I say that with all due respect to your position but I for one believe what Jesus said.

I say once again.....there are absolutely ZERO Scriptures which support your idea of annihilation of the body and soul and until you reconcile that fact, nothing is going to add up for you.

Thanks for the questions, I am loving the fact that I am able to get out the Word of God over the internet!
 
Point by point:
  1. You can't assume Luke 16 is literal and then by that attempt to disprove Solomon's claim that "the dead know not anything." Also, Paul will "know even as (he) is known" in the resurrection, not in death, for "the dead know nothing."
  2. How in the world do you derive from the parable of the Unjust Judge, a parable concerning live people, evidence that the dead retain their memories?
  3. Revelation is "sent and SIGNIFIED (means "uses symbolism") by his angel to His servant John." How can the souls of the martyrs be "under the altar" when you say they are supposed to be "in Abraham's bosom"? Bro, I'll make it easy for you: Blood can't cry out, whether it be of the martyrs or of Abel. It is JUSTICE that is crying out, namely God's earnest desire to make right the wrong that has been done.
  4. Agreed
  5. This obviously takes place after the dead in Christ are raised to be with Him in heaven, and certainly not while they are yet in the grave and the prayers of the holy ones certainly don't refer to dead folks in the grave who possess no knowledge or ability to pray.
  6. How, pray tell, can a person completely engulfed in flames that is wailing and gnashing his teeth because of the immense, unspeakable pain he's experiencing suddenly stop and have a nice, lucid, thoughtful conversation about his concern for loved ones and the like? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? Try pressing just the tip of your pinky on a hot stove and then try and have a conversation with someone and see how well that goes.

Bro, the Word of God is not a buffet table in which we can pick the verses we like and leave the others behind.

Yes, the wicked shall be tormented "forever and ever", which Strong says means an "undefined, but not endless" period of time, for "there shall be no more death, nor crying, nor sorrow, neither shall there be anymore pain for the former things are passed away."

There is not a single verse that says the wicked put on immortality. To the contrary, Paul says that only those are SEEKING FOR IMMORTALITY now will receive it later. How in the world do you conclude that the wicked who do everything BUT SEEK FOR IMMORTALITY will one day be the recipients of it? It is a gift that is given only to the righteous, while the wicked will "be as though they had not been" along with the devil to whom God said, "Never shalt thou be anymore."

Phoneman.....you just posted.........
Yes, the wicked shall be tormented "forever and ever", which Strong says means an "undefined, but not endless" period of time, for "there shall be no more death, nor crying, nor sorrow, neither shall there be anymore pain for the former things are passed away."

Now the verse you just posted DOES NOT SPEAK TO THE WICKED as you are trying to make it say. AGAIN....this is an example of how hard you are working and actually manipulating the Scriptures to fit your own theology.

You quoted Revelation 21:4 (NKJV)
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

The verse is speaking about the SAVED who will have all of those blessing NOT the wicked lost who will have the opposite.

Revelation 20:11-15 (NKJV)..........
The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Revelation 20:10New King James Version (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

It is what it is. I do not argue it, I just believe what it says.

Blessings to you.
 
phoneman~
I am wondering why you did not BOLD the "perpetual; eternal; everlasting" portion, or the "forever" portion; or the "undefined because endless"? You are deliberately choosing to see only what fits your view. Granted, at times "aionios" is used the way you are choosing; but NOT ALL THE TIME. We pointed out a verse to you where "aionios" is used specifically as "everlasting punishment" for the wicked alongside "aionios" being used as life eternal for the righteous (Matthew 25:46), but you fail to give that verse weight. Why? It is the SAME GREEK WORD specifically meaning "eternal" and being applied to the hereafter for both wicked and righteous. There are other verses we could list; but you will not accept them anyways.
The word doesn't always mean "never ending". When we read "there shall be no more crying, or sorrow, neither shall there be anymore pain for the former things are passed away" and "the earth passeth away and the lust thereof, but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever", the conclusion is clearly that those who do NOT do the will of God will NOT abide forever in flames of pain or anywhere else and therefore "aionios" when associated with the fate of the wicked can only mean "duration: undefined but not endless." How can the wicked continue to be tormented in this earth (Proverbs 11:31) if this earth and all that is in it will pass away? When Obadiah says that "all" of the wicked shall "be as though they had not been", and that the devil "never shalt be anymore" we should accept that, instead of attempting to reinterpret those verses to mean the opposite of what is written. :)
 
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1.
And YOU can not assume Luke is not literal as IT IS the Lord Jesus who is explaining the story. He would have precedence over all other Scriptures.

Luke 9:35......
"And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him!”

2.
Luke18:7.....
And shall not God avenge His own, which cry day and night unto Him, though He bear long with them".

The servants of the Lord remember the earth, and that they had lived on it. They recall that they had suffered and died at the hands of oppressors, and they remembered the divine promise of being vindicated eventually which is promised in Luke 18:7.

3.
Not so again brother.
Ephesians 4:8-10 (ESVV......
"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things."

That’s what Jesus meant when He said in Revelation 1:18.....
“I am he who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.”

The truth is that Scripture supports that Hades included both hell AND heaven (Abraham’s bosom, or what Jesus and many of the everyday Jews of his day referred to as Paradise). According to Jesus, in between the two was “A great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.” (Luke 16:26)

There’s even more biblical evidence that Paradise may not have been in heaven at that time. Remember, just three days after Jesus told the thief that he would be in Paradise with Him, He asked Mary Magdalene, who first saw Him in resurrected form, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the My Father.” (John 20:17) If had not yet ascended to the Father, then Paradise was not located in heaven.

4.
Thank God! The only question I guess is WHEN?

5.
NOPE!
You had said the dead do not praise the Lord. The verses I gave you say just the opposite my friend. It is what it is!!!!

Revelation 5......
13 "Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: “To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever.”

Revelation 5:8......
8 "When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones."

6.
My dear friend and brother. I do not have the ability to even contemplate the love of God and neither do you or anyone else. I can say I believe it and grasp it but in truth none of us can explain it.

I can not explain how God parted the Red Sea. But The key is not that I have to explain it but all I have to do is believe it.
I can not explain how God spoke to Moses out of a burning bush ....... but I believe that He did.
I can not explain how the three Hebrews survived the fiery furnace....but I believe they did.
I can not explain how Daniel survived the lions den.............................but I believe he did.
I can not even explain why God saved me from my sin and changed my eternal destiny.......but I know that He did!!!!

Just because we can not explain something does not mean we make fun of it or poke silly comments at those who do believe.

Hebrews 11:6 says this about our differences on this.........
"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him".

My dear friend, because you do not have the faith to believe and accept the words of the Lord Jesus Christ does not mean that the rest of us have to accept what you think. I say that with all due respect to your position but I for one believe what Jesus said.

I say once again.....there are absolutely ZERO Scriptures which support your idea of annihilation of the body and soul and until you reconcile that fact, nothing is going to add up for you.

Thanks for the questions, I am loving the fact that I am able to get out the Word of God over the internet!
A debate can only be effective if one point is taken at a time, as I'm sure you will agree. So, let's do that.

You said Jesus is the authority that we should hear. Ok, should be we believe the Jesus Who told Paul and other Bible writers to write that the dead will receive their bodies at the resurrection, or should we believe the Jesus of Luke 16 when He said that the dead already possess bodies BEFORE the resurrection while there are still folks alive on earth to warn of judgment? If Luke 16 is a parable, then the answer is obvious, but if it's a literal account of two dead men, then we have a glaring contradiction in the sayings of Jesus regarding the afterlife.

Remember, please respond to THIS point and this point alone, my brother. This point alone, for we can get to the other points later. REMEMBER, the only explanation I want is how can Jesus' position on when we are to be recipients of bodies in the afterlife in Luke 16 and His position on when we are to be recipients of bodies in the afterlife elsewhere be so different, yet be equally useful for "doctrine, reproof, correction, for instruction in righteousness"???
 
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Phoneman.....you just posted.........
Yes, the wicked shall be tormented "forever and ever", which Strong says means an "undefined, but not endless" period of time, for "there shall be no more death, nor crying, nor sorrow, neither shall there be anymore pain for the former things are passed away."

Now the verse you just posted DOES NOT SPEAK TO THE WICKED as you are trying to make it say. AGAIN....this is an example of how hard you are working and actually manipulating the Scriptures to fit your own theology.

You quoted Revelation 21:4 (NKJV)
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

The verse is speaking about the SAVED who will have all of those blessing NOT the wicked lost who will have the opposite.

Revelation 20:11-15 (NKJV)..........
The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Revelation 20:10New King James Version (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

It is what it is. I do not argue it, I just believe what it says.

Blessings to you.
Bro, all former things pass away, not just the suffering of the righteous. When you compare Scripture with Scripture, you too can see this: Those who "seek for immortality" will receive it and "the earth passeth away and the lust thereof, but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever." Since Proverbs 11:31 says the wicked will receive their punishment "in the earth", how can they continue to be punished if this earth has passed away along with the former things? Do you not see that only those who "seek for immortality" and those who "doeth the will of God" are the only ones that will not pass away and will abide forever? Of course you can! :)
 
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A debate can only be effective if one point is taken at a time, as I'm sure you will agree. So, let's do that.

You said Jesus is the authority that we should hear. Ok, should be we believe the Jesus Who told Paul and other Bible writers to write that the dead will receive their bodies at the resurrection, or should we believe the Jesus of Luke 16 when He said that the dead already possess bodies BEFORE the resurrection while there are still folks alive on earth to warn of judgment? If Luke 16 is a parable, then the answer is obvious, but if it's a literal account of two dead men, then we have a glaring contradiction in the sayings of Jesus regarding the afterlife.

Remember, please respond to THIS point and this point alone, my brother. This point alone, for we can get to the other points later. REMEMBER, the only explanation I want is how can Jesus' position on the afterlife in Luke 16 and His position on the afterlife elsewhere be so different, yet be equally useful for "doctrine, reproof, correction, for instruction in righteousness"???

First of all. I said nothing. God the Father said ......"This is my beloved Son, here ye Him".

I am glad you asked this question. Allow me to help you understand the Scriptures. In Luke 16 the focus is on the Old Testament saints. They are in the Paradise side of Hades or as some say Sheol in the Hebrew. That is where all the "Spirits" of the Old Test. were located. Some say as does Jesus, Abraham's bosom.

Their bodies are in the grave as are the wicked lost. The spirits of the wicked lost are in the torments side of Hades/Sheol.
When Jesus died He went to the Paradise side of Hades/Sheol and then He took those that were captive in Paradise with Him to heaven.

Ephesians 4:8-10......
" 8 Therefore it says, When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”9 In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things."

Their bodies are still in the grave but their spirits are in heaven with God. Jesus took their spirits with Him at his assention.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (ESV)
13 "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words."

There it is in black and white! The bodies of the dead saved are resurrected to be with their spirits which is the 1st Resurrection. A resurrection unto LIFE and life more abundantly!
 
A debate can only be effective if one point is taken at a time, as I'm sure you will agree. So, let's do that.

You said Jesus is the authority that we should hear. Ok, should be we believe the Jesus Who told Paul and other Bible writers to write that the dead will receive their bodies at the resurrection, or should we believe the Jesus of Luke 16 when He said that the dead already possess bodies BEFORE the resurrection while there are still folks alive on earth to warn of judgment? If Luke 16 is a parable, then the answer is obvious, but if it's a literal account of two dead men, then we have a glaring contradiction in the sayings of Jesus regarding the afterlife.

Remember, please respond to THIS point and this point alone, my brother. This point alone, for we can get to the other points later. REMEMBER, the only explanation I want is how can Jesus' position on when we are to be recipients of bodies in the afterlife in Luke 16 and His position on when we are to be recipients of bodies in the afterlife elsewhere be so different, yet be equally useful for "doctrine, reproof, correction, for instruction in righteousness"???

That is true and I ask you to remember that YOU were the one who posted 6 things you asked me to consider. One at a time is mich preferred by me.
 
First of all. I said nothing. God the Father said ......"This is my beloved Son, here ye Him".

I am glad you asked this question. Allow me to help you understand the Scriptures. In Luke 16 the focus is on the Old Testament saints. They are in the Paradise side of Hades or as some say Sheol in the Hebrew. That is where all the "Spirits" of the Old Test. were located. Some say as does Jesus, Abraham's bosom.

Their bodies are in the grave as are the wicked lost. The spirits of the wicked lost are in the torments side of Hades/Sheol.
When Jesus died He went to the Paradise side of Hades/Sheol and then He took those that were captive in Paradise with Him to heaven.

Ephesians 4:8-10......
" 8 Therefore it says, When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”9 In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things."

Their bodies are still in the grave but their spirits are in heaven with God. Jesus took their spirits with Him at his assention.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (ESV)
13 "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words."

There it is in black and white! The bodies of the dead saved are resurrected to be with their spirits which is the 1st Resurrection. A resurrection unto LIFE and life more abundantly!
But Luke 16 says they are in possession of bodies BEFORE the resurrection! You are dodging the question! Which Jesus do we believe, the one Who says we get bodies before the resurrection in Luke 16 or the Jesus Who says otherwise everywhere else in the Bible?
 
Bro, all former things pass away, not just the suffering of the righteous. When you compare Scripture with Scripture, you too can see this: Those who "seek for immortality" will receive it and "the earth passeth away and the lust thereof, but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever." Do you not see that only those who "seek for immortality" and those who "doeth the will of God" are the only ones that will not pass away and will abide forever? Of course you can! :)

Not so my brother. Everyone has immortality. Everyone has eternal life. WHERE you spend it is YOUR choice...heaven or hell.

John 3:16.....
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him."

Everyone knows that verse. But do we know the 18th -19th verse?............
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil."
 
But Luke 16 says they are in possession of bodies BEFORE the resurrection! You are dodging the question!!!

No Phoneman. You are very wrong. The wicked dead in Luke 16 are the spirits of the wicked dead not their bodies!!!!

Where in Luke 16 are the words .. BODIES???

Luke 16:22
"The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side."

There is no mention of his body. He was buried.............and in Hades ......."
 
Not so my brother. Everyone has immortality. Everyone has eternal life. WHERE you spend it is YOUR choice...heaven or hell.

John 3:16.....
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him."

Everyone knows that verse. But do we know the 18th -19th verse?............
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil."
Not so. "God ALONE hath immortality" 1 Timothy 6:16 You and I are MORTAL, same as Satan. Job says "Shall MORTAL man be more just than God?" Which Bible are you reading?
 
No Phoneman. You are very wrong. The wicked dead in Luke 16 are the spirits of the wicked dead not their bodies!!!!

Where in Luke 16 are the words .. BODIES???

Luke 16:22
"The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side."

There is no mention of his body. He was buried.............and in Hades ......."
Are you serious? Jesus speaks of their tongues, fingers, eyes, and bosoms! Of course they are in possession of bodies!
 
Not so. "God ALONE hath immortality" 1 Timothy 6:16 You and I are MORTAL, same as Satan. Job says "Shall MORTAL man be more just than God?" Which Bible are you reading?

You are smarter than this Phoneman!

1 Corinthians 15:51-54(ESV)
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
 
Are you serious? Jesus speaks of their tongues, fingers, eyes, and bosoms! Of course they are in possession of bodies!

Not so! The body goes to the grave and the spirit goes to be with Lord.

Eccles. 12:7 (ESV)
"and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

You are working way too hard on this my brother!
 
That is true and I ask you to remember that YOU were the one who posted 6 things you asked me to consider. One at a time is mich preferred by me.
Actually, it was I who have been asking about the 'bodies in the afterlife thing' specifically, but it doesn't matter.
 
You are smarter than this Phoneman!

1 Corinthians 15:51-54(ESV)
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
Bro, you are so confused! Paul is speaking of only the resurrection of the just when the Trumpet blows at the FIRST resurrection when Jesus comes. The SECOND resurrection of the wicked is separated from the first by the thousand years which the Bible nowhere says is heralded by a trumpet. So, yes, the just are raised to immortality and incorruption, NOT the wicked.
 
Not so! The body goes to the grave and the spirit goes to be with Lord.

Eccles. 12:7 (ESV)
"and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

You are working way too hard on this my brother!
My dear brother, the last time I checked, tongues, eyes, fingers, and bosoms are body parts. Part of bodies! Yes, the wicked will eventually be cast bodily into the Lake of Fire after the Second Coming according to Jesus, but this is before the Second Coming. If you're not willing to admit the obvious - that Luke 16 depicts three dead men in possession of bodies before the resurrection - then skip this point and move on to the next one.
 
My dear brother, the last time I checked, tongues, eyes, fingers, and bosoms are body parts. Part of bodies! Yes, the wicked will eventually be cast bodily into the Lake of Fire after the Second Coming according to Jesus, but this is before the Second Coming. If you're not willing to admit the obvious - that Luke 16 depicts three dead men in possession of bodies before the resurrection - then skip this point and move on to the next one.
You may be overlooking an important point. There is the earthly body, and there is the spiritual body, aka the soul.(As I understand it.) Paul talks about this mystery of the different kinds of flesh as opposed to the spiritual bodies we will (or do) have. The soul is what is made in God's image, not this fleshy body that deteriorates. Now our spirit bodies have, apparently as Jesus tells us, eyes-tongues-fingers of some kind, we just don't know exactly what they look like....just as we know very little of the spirit world, like what hell, Hades, the bottomless pit, and so on, are really like. We only have what is in the Bible, so we should stick with that. We can speculate, but it is just that.
 
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