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Rapture and Matt 24

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by THALLON, Jan 25, 2016.

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  1. Without going into the exact timing either pre trib or mid or post of the rapture event, the interpretation of events as contained in scripture as said by Jesus himself goes relating to the last days.....
    4Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    Meaning: a sign of the Last days is FALSE PROPHETS and FALSE MESSIAHS. A false prophet can be any Christian preaching or teaching, including me, a message that is a misrepresentation of the spirit and heart of scripture and twisting the context without ever having studied the word of God in depth and whose lifestyle and actions don't equate to those of a person of faith. or a Christian full of hot air who agrees with tattoos, abortion, homosexual marriage etc etc, if your that way i'm pretty sure your a false prophet.

    9Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

    Meaning: The CHURCH, or more particularly CHRISTIANS, WILL be arrested and executed, in fact the Church will fall apart or be a religious church without faith or love. Note the word BETRAY.
    The Gospel will be preached to all nations then the end will come.

    15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

    Meaning: After the Abomination, the Great Distress on the World that has not occurred at any time in history and is worse then any time in history including all the empires wars, the black death etc.

    22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
    Meaning: there is an implication I have not fully investigated that the seven years of the tribulation/wrath is not seven years but may be a far shorter time, maybe four years, gotta look into it.
    26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
    Warning again about false messiahs.

    29Immediately after the distress of those days
    “ ‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
    the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
    30Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
    The above verses marry up to REVELATION 6 : 9 TO 15.
    THE FIFTH SEAL: and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
    THE SIXTH SEAL: There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood

    15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usf from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
    Christian, you will indeed be RAPTURED, but NOT before the events begin to unfold, now it may be that you believe in THE GREAT TRIBULATION, or the great time of distress that you will escape that, yes you will escape God's wrath upon the Earth but you will not escape the events leading up to it, at least not according to any sensible interpretation of scripture. You may be alive at the time of rapture...or DEAD, you will still be raptured unless you are so dumb as to get the mark of the beast.
    Did the church in Germany escape Hitler...NO.
    Did the church in northern Iraq escape ISIS...NO. You can see their utube of being beheaded for their faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
    So IF some of us are to undergo such terrible things, how much worse will it be for the world? and not only in this life but in the judgment day.
    If you love the world and prosperity, poverty may come to you, will you lose your faith for things?
    or are the blessings of ETERNITY of such little value to you?
    Do not be like the virgins whose lamps were empty

    At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
    7“Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
    9“ ‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’
    10“But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
    11“Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’
    12But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.
    13“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
  2. My dear brother. I have to ask you.......what is your point here?

    You said...........
    "The Church will or more particularly CHRISTIANS, WILL be arrested and executed, in fact the Church will fall apart or be a religious church without faith or love."

    I can not agree with that comment and IMO you have missed the teaching of Jesus. Jesus was speaking in chapter 24 to the Jews.

    Chapter 23 and 24 are the Mt. Olivet Discourse where Jesus speaks of His Second coming. The fact is, the church can not be arrested or persecuted because it will have been removed by the Rapture and now it will be the last days of Israel where God will turn to the nation of Israel and deal with THEM, not the church.
    Seedsower and Euphemia say Amen and like this.
  3. "........Take heed that no man deceive you, for many shall come in my name ,saying I am Christ ;and shall deceive many.........."
    The scriptures do not say 'Messiah' But "Christ" Two very different meanings .
    The Lord Jesus Christ giving His full title . Is the Messiah.
    But Christ means annointed . Thus the Lord Jesus the annointed one .

    To another the Lord Himself said to the blind man who was blind from birth and was given sight when he had been cast out fo the temple was told "that if any say they are annointed they will be cast out of the synigogue"
    You will hear "lo here is Christ lo there is Christ" meaning there will come and day and now is when you will hear of many that the annointign is here or there or in the city or in the desert et.
    It does not mean that lo here is Jesus and lo there is Jesus and we are not to go running off at these false annointing.
    For the eternal resting place of the Holy Spirit of God is upon the Holy Word of God even as the dove rested upon the Lord at His baptism.
    When Noah sent out the dove the first time it returned as it found no resting place .The second time he sent it it came back with an olive branch in its beak signyfying now it had and left and was not seen again.
    In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit came upon various people but found no rest .
    In the New it came upon Jesus and never left .
    They that receive the Word of God receive Him who sent it .
    To all who are true BORN children of God of the Word and the Spirit of God the annointing abides.
    Go off looking for it and you will "lose it "
    Honour the Word of God and the annointing will abide indeed it is written "is with you forever "
    The exact timing then of what is called the 'rapture' but which really should be called the "translation" of the Bride . is or can be understood by understanding the nature .character and disposition of the bride .
    For like the 5 foolish virgins who were barred from the "marriage" who had not their vessels filled with the oil .
    So also there will be many who will be deceived or foolish who think that to be BORN is to be ready and so will be barred from the" marriage " being unrecognisable as the bride with the words "I know you not"
    Whereas the wicked and the Godless will be barred from the "kingdom" (not the same thing) with the words "I NEVER knew you" As they are unrecognisable as children of God.

    in Christ
  4. Yes, Matt 24:29-31 is rapture.

    Prewrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin Rosenthal

    1. Antichrist signs peace treaty with Israel to begin the 70th week Isa 28:15 NIV, Isa 28:18 NIV, Isa 57:8-9 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, Rev 6:2 NIV.
    2. The third temple is built Ez 40-48 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV.
    3. The first 3.5 years are birth pains, the first four seals are open along with apostasy of Jews Dan 11:36-45 NIV, Matt 24:4-7, 2 Thess 2:3 NIV, Rev 6:1-8 NIV.
    4. At the middle of the 70th week the abomination of desolation takes place Dan 9:27 NIV, Matt 24:15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV.
    5. Michael the angel, the restrainer is removed here Dan 12:1 NIV, 2 Thess 2:6-12 NIV, Rev 12:6-12 NIV.
    6. Immediately after the abomination of desolation the fifth seal is open and the Great Tribulation begins, man's rebellion against God Rev 6:9-11 NIV.
    7. This is right around where the two witnesses make their appearance and prophesy for 1,260 days Mal 4:5 NIV, Rev 11:2-3 NIV.
    8. The last 3.5 years of the 70th week now begins.
    9. Then the Great Tribulation is cut short around the middle of the last 3.5 years Matt 24:22 NIV.
    10. Immediately after the Great Tribulation ends cosmic disturbances occur before the Day of the Lord begins.
    11. The 144,000 are then sealed before the rapture, so they can enter the Day of the Lord without harm Rev 7:2-4 NIV.
    12. The rapture occurs at the seventh seal, after the Great Tribulation and at the beginning of the Day of the Lord Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rev 7:14 NIV, Rev 8:1-5 NIV.
    13. The Bema Seat of Christ is here Matt 16:27 NIV, Luke 14:14-15 NIV, 2 Cor 5:10 NIV, Rev 19:8-9 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV.
    14. The Feast/Marriage Supper of the Lamb is also here Luke 14:14-15 NIV, Rev 7:9 NIV, Rev 19:1 NIV, Rev 19:9 NIV.
    15. Then begins the Day of the Lord, the start of God's wrath of trumpets. The 5th trumpet will also last five months Rev 9:5 NIV.
    16. At the end of the 70th week the beast will kill the two witnesses, but after 3.5 days they will come alive Rev 11:7-12 NIV.
    17. Very few people will be left after the 70th week is complete Zech 13:8-9 NIV.
    18. Jesus Christ landing on the Mount of Olives is here Zech 9:14-17 NIV, Zech 10:1-12 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV, Zech 14:4 NIV, Mal 3:2-4 NIV, Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rom 11:26-27 NIV, Jude 1:14-15 NIV, Rev 19:11-21 NIV.
    19. After the 70th week is complete the bowl judgments begin for 30 days Dan 12:11 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV.
    20. Then the 45 days begin for cleansing of the Temple Dan 12:12 NIV, Zech 13:1-6 NIV.
    21. After the 45 days are finished the 1,000 year millennium begins Rev 20:4-6 NIV.
    22. Nonbelievers will also be a part of the 1,000 year millennium Zech 14:16-19 NIV.
    23. After the 1,000 years are finished, the dead believers and nonbelievers that are left over will be judged Rev 20:11-15 NIV.
    24. Then a New Heaven and a New Earth will appear making everything new Rev 21:1-8 NIV.
    25. Lastly, Eden is restored in which we now live with Jesus Christ forever and ever. Amen Rev 22:1-5 NIV.

    Side Note 1: The full seven years are never called "the tribulation period", rather the 70th week is the proper name to describe the seven years.

    Side Note 2: The Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord are not the same event. The GT is man's rebellion against God, and the Day of the Lord is God's wrath against man. These two events are split in half in the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. The church will have to go through the first five seals and also the GT, but they will be raptured before the Day of the Lord begins, God's wrath of trumpets and bowls. The church will witness the signing of the peace treaty, the third temple built, the first four seals opening, the abomination of desolation, the two witnesses, the fifth seal opening, the GT of man's rebellion and the sixth seal of cosmic disturbances in the sun, moon and stars before they are raptured.
  5. Christ and Messiah are interchangeable, especially in Matthew 24.
    Major and Abdicate say Amen and like this.
  6. Why do Christians always seem to debate the "rapture"? Every forum I've been on, it's a hot-button topic. It's on the level of arguing about politics - that's just a fight waiting to happen.

    Just thought I'd ask the question in case anyone wants to answer it instead of just throwing scripture back and forth at each other that each of you cherry-picks to suit your own personal beliefs and agendas.
    Major and Abdicate say Amen and like this.
  7. People debate the rapture because they are not willing to face the condition or requirements of the Bride.
    Primarily because they have been misled by bad teaching on the matter .
    understand the nature and character of the Bride and the rest falls into place .
    Jesus said when the Spirit of truth shall come he will lead you into all truth . Even this one.

    in Christ
  8. Gerald, thank you for the honest reply.

    Seems a very silly use of one's time to bicker back and forth, using the words of Scripture as weapons against one another. Doesn't seem very Christian to behave in such a way - seems driven purely by ego and not by the will of God. But, what do I know? I'm pretty new to this whole Christianity thing, so maybe I just haven't developed my desire to argue and rebuke my fellow man.

    Do as you will. Carry on. I have no dog in this fight, nor do I want to. Just thought I'd poke my head in and provoke a few thoughts in the midst of your food fight.
  9. Don't be unkind, now. Not every Christian "cherry picks" concerning this topic. I for one receive from the Lord in studying His word, and He presents for me my beliefs. I don't pick scripture to suit me. The Lord, through scripture shows me what to believe, which is as it should be.

    Major likes this.
  10. I'm not being unkind. I'm being direct. I've no time for tip-toeing around anything. I ask direct questions and expect direct answers. I am a very kind person - I just don't coddle people.
    Abdicate and crownoflife say Amen and like this.
  11. No time? Where are you off to?

    Don't worry. I see no coddling, there.

  12. Although I have not lived as long as many have, I have lived more than long enough to witness first hand that we humans spend entirely too much time not saying the things we ought to, need to, or want to say to people. We refrain from speaking because we are scared, embarrassed, fearful of how we'll be perceived by others, or are just overly polite to the point of phoniness. I have no time for that.
    Abdicate likes this.
  13. Me neither!
  14. To be consistant they are not .
    Christ primarily means anointed one .
    and the use of the word as and when it is is important to understand what is being said .
    which the word Messiah would not .
    It is not lo here is the messiah or there is the messiah.
    But its speaking about the anointing .
    Not Jesus .

    in Christ
  15. Yes, it is Messiah, and it refers to Christ, the Anointed.

    From G5548; anointed, that is, the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus: - Christ.

    Please don't confuse matters, quibbling over words.
  16. Fanciful. Not how it is going to happen.
    There will be a sifting of the wheat and the chaff. There will be a great falling away.
    Christians are already being arrested and persecuted right now in the world...
    I think Americans believe in the Rapture because they fail to believe that they are just Christians like all the other people in the world.
    Faith has always been about endurance and overcoming, not a quick easy escape for some.


  17. It passes the time of day, and is more fun than doing crosswords.
    In truth I think that it gives individuals a chance to be a preacher or prophet and give vent to their theory of everything.
    Also I think most people of today living in first world consumer societies are pretty well in their comfort zones and the idea that we may
    all be tested and tried through terrifying ordeals is all a bit too much for those professing how much they love Jesus.
    When Russia nukes Rome and the Middle East explodes into fire and brimstone and all we have is faith and the Holy Spirit - for there ain't
    going to be anything else - will we still love Jesus? Will we still have faith? Will we willingly die for the gospel?
    Rapture of the Church solves these rather difficult challenges.
  18. I do not know what book you are reading .But I read the Word of God.
    as such then "every WORD that comes out of the mouth of God" is both important and gives life .
    Moreover the WORD of God tells me that ALL scripture is inspired of God mby the Spirit of God that the Word of God tells me "who knows the mind of God and the deep things of God"
    So your perception of my 'quibbling' over words is somewhat misplaced as every Word that comes out of the mouth of God is in its right order ,right place and with the right meaning . and while God is not confused as to what he means ,men often are .
    Simply because they like to think they know better and if they do but understand greek and Hebrew they may know the mind of God when in very truth they who boast so much in their understanding of them seem to understand the least .
    I therefore suggest ;and any one interested in the truth that you go through ALL the scriptures that speak of CHRIST and then see if your understanding consistantly fits or 'works' It wont.
    I did actually give a number of scripture to show why it should be Christ with the hope that a better understanding of the Word of God .But while many give lip service to the principle that the WORD of God is the final authority of sound doctrine and foundation for faith in God; it is increasingly clear to me that is all it is ,"lip service".
    The confusion then is yours as it will continue to be and more; until you actually are willing to be "corrected and reproved and instructed in righteousness"
    No one likes to be ;me included. But you will have to accept the fact that I refuse and utterly reject the superficial and loose use of the Word of God that is taken as "study" .

    in Christ
  19. What is called the rapture is beyond dispute and it is when the Bride is caught up to meet the Lord in the air . (that will take faith)
    It will not be to escape persecution for she already has suffered it ."For they that live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. She will also find her enemies will be of her" own household" as also will be rejected and despised by her own bretheren" but it will be as the Lord said of it ."For I will come again to gather you unto myself that where I am there you will be also"
    How can two walk together unless they agree? The Lord will not have a Bride that does not believe HIM.

    in Christ
  20. Jesus is mans "Messiah" and God's "Christ".
    Euphemia likes this.
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