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Questions On The Book Of Revelations

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by followerofchrist72, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. I know churches teach that the book of Revelation has yet to be fulfilled. I seem to be swaying more that parts of it already happened in 70 A.D. I read the accounts of Josephus which point to more of tribulation within Israel and the lands surrounding it fulfill John's writings.

    I wanted other input of fellow Christians. Why they believe it is yet to come, or still needs to be finished.
     
  2. When you compare Revelations with Daniel you gain some insight. The "beast from the sea" represents a worldwide government. There has never been a worldwide government, though there is one in the works now. The ten toes of iron and miry clay are that world government. The 7 year tribulation will be soon, the falling away is occuring now, the Gospel has been preached to the entire world, warfare is everywhere, corruption in government and populace is the rule not the exception, so all the pieces are falling into place.
     
  3. You are referring to the "Preterist" position of prophecy.

    Glomung is corrrect. One must have a knowledge of Daniel to make any sense of the Revelation.

    He is absolutly correct in the 7 year Trib. which Daniel explains as the "Futuristic" position of prophecy.

    Revelation was NOT fulfilled in 70 AD.

    For one thing........the 1st Resurrection had not taken place in 70 AD neither has it happen as of yet. The 1st Resurrection will be the Rapture for Believers and the 2nd Ressurrection will be 1000 years later for un-believers.

    Secondly.....The Jews were removed from the Land in 70 AD and the Scriptures tell us that Israel will be IN the land at the time of the Tribulation. The Jews returned to the Land on May 14, 1949.
     
    Lifeasweknowit likes this.
  4. Exactly, I am rocking back and forth on the Preterist views and what the churches believe. The scales more on the Preterist views. I got attacked for asking about it at another forum and got banned from it. I am doing nothing different in here then I did in there. Makes me sad.
     
  5. This happens when folks view prophecy in a geographical, national, racial sense: one tends to vacillate between history and attempting to force fit them into current events.

    I see Daniel and The Revelation quite differently than the majority of Futurists...but I am not a Preterist...I think that the fulcrum to all prophecy is it's moral purpose, quintessentially concern His People that are born again and the spiritual enemies that wish to destroy them, of whatever claimed religious allegiance.
     
  6. No need to be sad my brother!

    Differing thoughts do not lead to being banned. It is the anger and confrontational attitude that allow that to take place.

    Allow me to see if I can help you with this part of your study of Gods Word.

    IMO, there is no reason to interpret the prophecies of Revelation allegorically. Previously fulfilled prophecies were fulfilled literally. For example, all of the Old Testament verses predicting the first coming of Christ were fulfilled literally in Jesus. Christ came at the time that He was predicted to come in DAn. 9:25-26. Christ was born of a virgin literally as told to us in Isaiah 7:14. He suffered and died for our sins as explained to us literally in Isaiah 53:5-9. These are but a few examples of the hundreds of Old Testament prophecies God gave to the prophets that are recorded in Scripture and that were fulfilled literally. It simply does not make sense to try to allegorize unfulfilled prophecy or understand unfulfilled prophecy in any other way than by a normal reading.

    I want you to consider also that preterism is entirely inconsistent in its interpretation of the book of Revelation. According to the preterist view of the end times, chapters 6-18 of Revelation are symbolic and allegorical, not describing literal events.

    However, chapter 19, according to preterists, is to be understood literally. Jesus Christ will literally and physically return. Then, chapter 20 is again interpreted allegorically by preterists, while chapters 21-22 are understood literally, at least in part, in that there will truly be a new heaven and new earth. Do you see the inherant problem with this kind of exergesis?????

    No one denies that Revelation contains amazing and sometimes confusing visions. No one denies that Revelation describes some things figuratively. However, to arbitrarily deny the literal nature of select portions of Revelation is to destroy the basis of interpreting any of the book literally. If the seals, trumpets, bowls, witnesses, 144000, beast, false prophet, millennial kingdom, etc., are allegorical or symbolic, on what basis do we claim that the second coming of Christ and the new earth are literal? That is the failure of preterism—it leaves the interpretation of Revelation to the opinions of the interpreter.
     
  7. See what makes me sway more towards the Preterist views is the literal and spiritual views. The descriptions of the scripture is based in the generation in which Jesus and the disciples lived. Josephus writes about the War of the Jews when the temple was destroyed. Signs and wonders in heaven. Heaven opened up and seeing chariots and soldiers running around among the clouds and all cities of Palestine. In Revelations Jesus tells John in the very first paragragh Revelations 1:1 things must shortly(quickly, swiftly) take place.

    The Lord told Daniel to seal up the book until the time of the end. The Lord told John in Revelation 1:3 for the time is near. See why would He tell Daniel to seal these things and tell John that this must shortly take place, if they weren't going to happen. I believe that all has been fulfilled. The temple hasn't been rebuilt for 1943 years. Why would they need to rebuild it again? Jesus fulfilled the Law. There is no more need for sacrifice.

    It is the writings like this from the scribe or writers of the time of tribulation in Israel that make me go hmmmmm.

    Josephus
    (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
    "Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).


    “A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities.” (rendered in Chilton)

    Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian

    "13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).
     
  8. You must understand that the term "shortly" means many things to many people.
    What God calls "shortly" or "soon" may be centuries from our point of view.

    There are several points that cannot be denied 1. the Gospel will be preached to the entire world and then the end will come, whether any like it or not , that did not occur until the 1960's or 1970's.
    2. rebirth of Israel - 1948
    3. Satan has never been chained, so the millenium has not occurred
     
  9. I think it is wise to define what we mean by "allegory" "metaphor" and "symbolism". Let's face it :the Bible is replete with these, not to confuse, but because the Jewish/Greek/Roman mind needed instructing this way, as the Lord Himself did while on Earth through parables and word-pictures. The Revelation is over 90% derived from such OT constructs, so to dismiss the value of them is dangerous, IMO.

    As the Lord instructs, we need the spirit of the passage understood, not the letter. Ultra literalism is a shaky as ultra mystification. The consistence is not a matter of "all literal" or "all mystical"; I think it is a matter of "What is God saying to His Redeemed in this passage? What spiritual benefit/warning for them is He speaking about?"....Not matters about secular nations, tanks and guns, Russians, Muslims (Turks) or Nazis, all used before by "prophecy experts, whose predictions have failed.
     
  10. followerofChrist: There is a principle in prophecy called "dual application", meaning after the cross, some fulfillment of a prophecy, usually concerning the destruction of the Jewish nation, occurs, but the world-wide application of the same prophecy has yet to occur.

    Example: Luke 17:26,37 literally happened in 70 AD to the Hebrew nation, but also much more importantly, but will occur in the time of the 2nd Advent.

    But the key to the entire section is this sentence:
    Christ was not "revealed" in 70 AD....Look and see what "revealed" means in Greek.
    Dual application is vital.
     
    Major likes this.
  11. Here is my question... Why would the Lord wait nearly 2000 years to finalize the scripture? The Tribulation was against the Nation of Israel almost 2000 years ago. Jesus was the last sacrifical lamb. No more temple. We are the church as individuals, together we make the body of Christ. Many will decieve by false teachers and prophets until the earth is no more.

    So explain Matthew 27:50-54 which says: 50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

    A resurrection of the dead that went around in the holy city and appeared to many... Sounds like His words are being fulfilled in the time of Christ. Earthquakes, loud voice of Christ as He yeilded up His spirit, graves opened and the resurrection of the the body of the saints, veil in the temple torn from top to bottom going into the Holy of Holies.
     
  12. Did my comments before your last post not register with you? Your comments above are exactly what I am talking about. Do you want to discuss or not? Are you actually curious or want to promote?
     
  13. G'day, F.O.C. you did give your name...........I apologize for forgetting it:(
    Difficult to explain is that one. Although 'dead' saints were seen before Christ's crucifixion, (Mount of transfiguration),
    bodily resurrection would not have taken place before the resurrection of Jesus. It seems the most probable explanation therefore would be that the earthquake ripped open some graves and this we read being eyewitness accounts by several people compiled into the gospel account has some confusion of facts.
    Unpopular as this may read, and as unpalatable to some as may be, the account was not first hand by any of the close disciples......most of them headed for the hills with Jesus' arrest...the other few were at the crucifixion site.
    One other thing to consider here is that this account stands alone without the support of other testimony and so should be received with the utmost caution. May I refer you to the accounts in the other two synoptic gospels Mark 15:37,38 and Luke 23:45,46,47.
    This might address your question.
    2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
     
  14. Ummmm....I can't agree with you this time, Calvin. This idea of yours makes a hit-or-miss muddle of the Gospel Record. Why would God preserve a mistake? Why would anybody confuse rotten corpses belched out from an earthquake with " they went into the holy city and appeared to many"....

    I prefer to take the Word as a whole rather than dismiss what I find confusing.
     
  15. Well that is quite OK Rusty. I rely heavily on the OT and NT instruction to establish the truth of a matter on the testimony of Two or Three witnesses. Where that is lacking, I believe I need to use my God given intelligence to seek to come to a satisfactory understanding.
    I did warn though that what I was to say would be unpalatable for some......without meaning anything derogatory by that.:)
    If Christ Jesus was the 'first fruits' as more than one scripture testifies, then having the dead running around before His resurrection is a bit out of character with so many other scriptures, but that is what I believe so I don't care if I must await my release from purgatory because of it.
     
  16. I apologize if it came off wrong. That wasn't my intension. I am trying to understand your views and respect everybody's views too. Today I have thrown out the doctrines of men in my search. Trying to read the Bible for what it is. It is a spiritual book as well as a literal book. I believe Jesus is the son of God to fulfill the law of Moses. He was perfect and well pleasing to the Lord.

    I try to visualize what was going on in the time of Jesus. So to me after researching looks like all has been fulfilled. IMO
     
  17. Not unpalatable, just a bit short reached, perhaps.

    I too believe in the 2 or three witnesses system....here is my evidence:

    Those in this "first fruits" of resurrection bore testimony in the Jerusalem to the fulfillment of the Scripture,
    These OT saints contradicted the lie which the Roman guard had been hired to circulate--that the disciples had come by night and stolen Him away. This testimony of resurrected OT saints could not be silenced.

    Now I think two witnesses is enough...for me, anyway.
     
  18. Well...this post seems to answer my question below:

    This latest post sounds very much like you have made up your mind, as you still have not remarked about my post on dual applications.

    I have a hard time with folks initially saying they are uncertain and then soon after sounding very much certain. I think it best to come clean at the start.
     
  19. Clean start... I said in the beginning that I know churches teach that the book of Revelation has yet to be fulfilled. I seem to be swaying more that parts of it already happened in 70 A.D. The Preterism view more or less. Meaning all was fulfilled around the time of Jesus and in the Generation of his disciples.

    With researching and reading the scripture and other historians, and non-canon scripture like the Book of Enoch. Things fall into place. Also no other temple has been built since Jesus died for us all on the cross. Also the tenses used in Revelations 1:7 which says:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

    I believe revelation was written before the destruction of the Temple. Daniel wrote it and sealed it, while John REVEALED it to the masses.
     
  20. I see where you are coming from. I checked the passage from Isa you supplied against the Septuagint, and the ESV.
    The Kjv has some of the text there grayed out telling us that the Hebrew texts used do not contain a wholly complete text as rendered by the translators..ie they have interpolated to have the text read the way they think it ought to read. One might reasonably argue the same for the ESV translation team and the panel of 70+ scribes that translated the Septuagint.

    Isa 26:19. Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Kjv
    I agree that the added words tend to make sense out of the rest of the passage, but I defer to those skilled in the 'double Dutch' of the Hebrew language. It seems strange to me that words would need to be added to any text in order for that text to read OK if...the source text was complete, not counting small grammatical additions that is.


    1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    From V23, I feel justified in asking to whom did these graveyard truants belong?
     

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