Question About Receiving The Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Holy Spirit Baptism and Living' started by Jerry Shugart, Feb 24, 2013.

  1. "And with that he breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit'" (Jn.20:22; NIV).

    How can this translation be correct? In the following passage the Lord Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would not be sent until He departed to be with the Father and He had not yet departed to be with the Father when He said those words:

    "But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you" (Jn.16:5-7).

    How is it possible that they had received "the Holy Spirit" because the Lord Jesus had not yet departed to be with the Father when He spoke the words at John 20:22?

    Anyone have an answer?
     
  2. Here is my thinking:

    In John 16 Jesus is telling the disciples of future events and His going 'away' / 'departing' is a reference to His death on the cross and a transference of His Godly nature after death.

    In John 20 it is the resurrected Christ commanding His disciples to 'receive the Holy Spirit'. And as we see in the future tense of Acts 2, they are then 'filled' with the Holy Ghost. The receiving & filling of the Holy Spirit is not a one time deal, it is a continuous presence among the followers of Christ.

    I could be wrong...
     
  3. From the "context" the departing is in regard to departing the earth and going to the Father:

    "But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away" (Jn.16:5-7).

    The Lord Jesus is clearly speaking about going to the Fatherand that means departing the eart to go into heaven.
     
  4. I guess my question would be: has the 'Holy Spirit/ Ghost" been around since the Creation as well?
     
  5. Since I believe in the Trinity I believe that the Holy Spirit has always existed. But I cannot see how this has to do with the point I made in my OP. Perhaps you could explain?

    Thanks!
     
  6. I guess I chalk this up to one of those unexplained mysteries of God-and in 'that day' we will have all the answers we need.

    In your original post you asked "How is it possible that they had received "the Holy Spirit" because the Lord Jesus had not yet departed to be with the Father when He spoke the words at John 20:22?"

    I don't think the presence of the Holy Spirit on Earth was conditional to Christ ascending to heaven-if the spirit was already here. I think that this is an 'access too' the Holy Spirit issue; much like that if the passing on of 'blessings' from one generation to another in the Old Testament. God in all forms including Christ and the Spirit are available to the faithful. Perhaps seeing the resurrected Lord solidified the faith of the disciples allowing them to receive the spirit?
     
  7. I think that a proper understanding of the Lord Jesus' words on this subject demonstrates the the presence of the Holy Spirit was indeed conditional on the Lord Jesus departing the earth:

    "But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you" (Jn.16:5-7).

    There is an answer to this but many will not be willing to hear it. Here is the proper translation of the verse:

    "And with that he breathed on them and said, 'Receive holy spirit'" (Jn.20:22).

    In the Greek there is no definite article (the) so the reference is not to the Third Person of the Godhead. We can see the same thing here:

    "And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized in water; but ye shall be baptized in holy spirit not many days hence" (Acts 1:4-5).
     
  8. I guess I am at loss for your intent? Are you seeking differing opinion or teaching this section of the Word? Either way, this would not put a kink in my faith. To some it may appear that you are trying to suggest a 'contradiction' in the Bible causing doubt in the Word. I don't believe that is your intent; therefore my assumption at this point is you are wanting to teach this as a truth for this portion of scripture?

    So to reiterate my thought process: it seems to me that the Lord was first preparing the disciples to receive the spirit and upon Christ's resurrection (before or after His ascension) the disciple's faith was solidified in the risen Lord allowing them to receive the spirit. Once again, it is my assertion from the scripture through interpretation susceptible to human error. I freely admit-I could be wrong. It doesn't change my faith in the Word however.
     
  9. I am saying that the translators are in error when they translated the verses which I quoted as "the Holy Spirit" and not as "holy spirit."

    I am clearing up a contradiction that exists because of a faulty translation in many verses where the words "the Holy Spirit" should be translated "holy spirit."

    These facts should change the way which we have interpreted many Scriptures, especially the events which happened on the day of Pentecost.
     
  10. Thats a very good question you ask. You will find more things like that as you read the bible. Take for instance pauls vision, there are two slightly diffrent versions or did judas buy a feild with his money or did he throw it away. Now I cant tell you how you should work out the bibles miss givings, all I can say is that you have to work out this stuff with a logical and fact seeking mind.
     
  11.  
  12. Boniface: Again I must disagree....The Holy Spirit was definitely at work saving and filling souls since the beginning of time, not just after the Upper Room. Consider:


    And on and on...The Spirit was NOT vacant from this world until the Resurrection...sorry...the Bible says otherwise.
    I can show 34 other verses that show the Spirit was quite active for salvation by faith in the OT: care to see them?
     
  13. Jesus had given the Holy Spirit before in Matthew 10th chapter, even to Judas Iscariot, but this was not the promise of the permanant indwelling Holy Ghost, and neither was the event in John 20th chapter: here's why.

    John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you....25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

    If you consider that Jesus had to ascend to the Father to prepare a place for us by which this chapter began in leading towards God's plan of salvation being with Him as it is by Him He is leading the way for us into Heaven, then He has to be in Heaven before He actually started saving believers and thus preparing a place for us in Heaven.

    John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    So that ties in with you reference from your quote:

    John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    So from the day at Pentecost, that was when His disciples and every other believer in Jesus Christ since then were saved because that was when they had received the promise of the Holy Spirit as the Comforter, that dwells within us and abides in us forever.

    If you consider that believers are now a new creature in Christ Jesus now that He is leading the way for us in Heaven,

    2 Corinthians 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
    Galatians 6:15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

    .....then as new wineskin, they are able to hold the new wine forever thus testifying to the Holy Spirit as the Comforter in being that new wine and as we are sealed with that Spirit of adoption,

    Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

    .....we are preserved and thus saved as testifying that Jesus is the Saviour.

    Matthew 9:15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. 16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. 17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

    That's Jesus explaining why He had to leave in order for us to become new wineskin and thus able to hold the new wine forever whereas before, the disciples and the believers could not because Jesus was not yet glorified in having left them to prepare a place for any and all believers to be saved for Him to prepare that place for them in Heaven to live with God.
     
  14. Dear Brother Rusty i Never said that The Holy spirit was vacant, the Holy Spirit is God so He always been there but we must considere that the baptism of the Holy spirit was possible only after Christ Resurection in fact the bible clearly state it in John 7:39
    "By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified."
    In the Old testament only 3 kinds of People were able to experience the presence of the Holy Spirit The King, Prophet and priest and only for a short period of time, just enough for them to prophecy or accomplish differents task. But When Christ came John the baptist said : And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' (John1:3)
    Jesus is the First man to whom The Spirit came Down and remained, As it was for Him also it's for us, InFact Jesus said : And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, (John 14;16)

    we who are under the new covenant have the promess of the Holy spirit to stay With us forever!!! there is a Huge difference of how the Holy is at work in the Church today and how it was in the Old Testament, first of all as i said, back then it was only given for a short time to the prophet, the king and the priest.only in Israel but read what Peter had to say after he was baptize With fire in acts 2 :"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
    Now this happened the day of pentecost in Upper Room and never before!!!
     
  15. Well...I guess you don't believe my NT verses that show Elisabeth was filled with the Spirit (not a king, queen, prophet or priest) so I must show you some other OT verses that clearly show the "filling with the Spirit"in ordinary folks BEFORE Pentecost:

    First a craftsman:

    God wants to make this very clear so He said it again in Exodus 35:31! Look it up.

    Now this is quite clear to me: these are just elders, not priests, kings or Prophets with a book in the Bible:

    Now in the very next passage the Lord makes it clear that our ideas of position (priest, king, Prophet) are incorrect:

    Now Moses wouldn't have said that last sentence if it wasn't possible until after Pentecost, IMO.....The Hebrews failed to be obedient and the Spirit was with drawn....

    I hope this clarifies what I mean.
     
  16. Rusty,

    You may want to check post #13 in this thread which will lead up to the explanation that Jesus has given about why those that were filled with the Holy Spirit was not a permanant one and that was because they were not made new creature yet in Christ Jesus to be able to hold the new wine as in having the permament indwelling Holy Spirit in testifying to Jesus as the Saviour by Whom we are saved as the witness of the Holy Ghost in us forever is proof of that because of this verse:

    John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    Before Jesus had gone back to Heaven, no man in the past had gone to Heaven where God's abode is.

    Matthew 915 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. 16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. 17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

    That's Jesus explaining why He had to leave in order for us to become new wineskin and thus able to hold the new wine forever whereas before, the disciples and the believers could not because Jesus was not yet glorified in having left them to prepare a place for any and all believers to be saved for Him to prepare that place for them in Heaven to live with God.

    Jesus had to descend to the lower parts of the earth ( Ephesians 4:8-10 ) to Abraham's bosom ( Luke 16:22-26 ) which is Paradise ( Luke 12:42-43 ) to preach to the prisoners there that were sometimes disobedient ( 1 Peter 3:19-20 ) when after His resurrection, the OT saints were also ( Matthew 27:52-53 ). Once He had ascended to the right hand of God the Father, Paradise is now located in Heaven: 2 Corinthians 10:2-4

    So Jesus had to prepare a place even for the OT saints as they are still in holding in Paradise in Heaven before that great day when the Bridegroom receives all the ready bride to the Father's mansion above at the pre tribulational rapture event.

    Reads to me that the OT saints & the NT saints will be arriving at this occasion of the Marriage Supper at the same time. It is a Jewish custom of the bridegroom to get the home ready to receive the bride after they had gotten married, and so if that place is not ready for the NT saints yet, then that is why I believe the OT saints are in "holding" in Paradise which is now in Heaven for that great day of the Marriage Supper.

    John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
     
  17. Dear Brother Rusty, I understand that many peoples who werent neither priests, kings or prophet had experienced the in dwelling of the Holy spirit in the Old Testament, and i wont debate you on that. When i said that only the King, priest and the Prophet were to receive the Holy spirit is because only these three groups of peoples were annointed with Oil (Oil symbolize the Holy spirit).
    Exodus 30:31
    31 And you shall say to the people of Israel, ‘This shall be my holy anointing oil throughout your generations. 32 It shall not be poured on the body of an ordinary person, and you shall make no other like it in composition. It is holy, and it shall be holy to you. 33 Whoever compounds any like it or whoever puts any of it on an outsider shall be cut off from his people.’”

    Oil was used for consecration of Peoples or things

    Leviticus 8:10-12
    Then Moses took the anointing oil and anointed the tabernacle and all that was in it, and consecrated them. 11 And he sprinkled some of it on the altar seven times, and anointed the altar and all its utensils and the basin and its stand, to consecrate them. 12 And he poured some of the anointing oil on Aaron's head and anointed him to consecrate him.


    Now the Promess of the Holy spirit that we have through Jesus in the New covenant it's far more better than what people were experiencing in the Old testament, First of all they were dipending on the blood of animal for the remissions of their sins that was a shadow of which it was to come and therefor they couldnt be perfected, but we the have the blood of Christ that is the substance, we have been perfected once and for all that's why today the Holy spirit can dwell in us forevere
    Hebrews 10:1-14

    Because of this reason today we can receive the Holy spirit Forever with us and we are now his temple, the function of the Holy spirit in the church is different and far better than what it was in the OT. Jesus says that He (the Holy spirit) will come to Help us and comfort us because Jesus had to depart physicaly so we needed an Helper to be with us Untill he will come back again physicaly. Farthur More He said that he will convince us(Believers) of Righteousness, this was only Possible because Christ Today has been made unto us Righteousness. 1 Cor 1:30.

    Remember that The Holy spirit has gifted us with differents Gifts and ministries For the perfection of the church Ephesians 4:11-16

    Bottom Line, the Holy spirit was given to the church in the day of pentecost and it was important for believer to receive Him that's why Jesus Ask to the disciples to wait in Jerusalem untill they are empower from above. The function of the Holy spirit in the New covenant is far more better than what it was in the OT. today the Holy spirit Help us Pray, intercede for us, tells us things to come, remind us the word of Christ, attest to us that we are saved and children of God Rom 8:15, do you know that even Moses or David never adress God as Father?(no one could called God father in the OT because they didnt have the spirit coming as a spirit of Adoption) But we are today Sons and Daughter of God.
    To believe that we receive the Holy spirit the same way the Peoples of The OT did is to says that the Cross of Jesus didnt make any difference because we could have receive the Spirit anyway that is Incorrect!!!
     
  18. This is a complete turn around from your earlier post, then:

    "Only" is only, my friend: this was all I was pointing out about what you were saying. I showed that it was NOT "ONLY" and the oil was not applied to any of them that I listed, or in the NT with Elizabeth.

    Also: Please prove from Scripture that ANY of those filled with the Spirit were filled only "temporarily". I prefer actual verses not denominational doctrine. Thanks.

    and lastly: IMO the infilling of the Spirit was ever and only done by Christ, OT or NT...Who do you think was dealing with the Hebrews the whole time?? See below:

    What happened with the redeemed after the Cross and the Spirit is another topic: this one must be clarified first to fully respect what happened even then.
     
  19. TalkJesus: I also suggest you show that Jesus, in the OT, only "lent" the infilling to receivers.
    For example: Are you claiming that Ezekiel, Daniel, or Moses only had a teaser experience with the HS? Can you give direct or implied OT evidence of this by verses?

    As to the rest of your explanation: thanks but I'm only interested in the theory that God treated the Jews like red headed step-children while today's Pentecostal Christians are so much better off.
     
  20. Dear Brother Rusty i can see that you pick and chose what you want to answer , my point is that in The OT only a restricted group of peoples were able and only for a short periode of time to receive the HS, if not this verse quoted by Peter in acts 2 wouldnt make sense. Now if for you there is no difference before the day of pentecost and after, or dont believe that the baptism of the HS is important that's fine. Just one more Thing i wish to know what would you answer if Paul asked you the same question he asked in acts 19 . May the Lord blesses you Amen
     

Share This Page