Question About Former Church

[Major]

I've never really studied 'replacement theology' Major. It seems to me to be founded on a profound and comprehensive lack of knowledge of the Lord. If the Lord was into replacement, He could have left the Noah family to drown with the rest of mankind, gaged Satan and replaced the human race with a replacement Adam and Eve.....but He didn't replace, He redeemed.
What is it we say of the Lord? 'The rock of our salvation', the Lord our redeemer' and similar. We never say 'our Lord the replacer'
The Whole of Scripture is about Redemption and restoration. About victory over death.

Good post you made up yonder.

Absolutely correct calvin. It is a mystery to me how well informed people can be so wrong, but there it is. I think what happens is that when miss the fundamental truths of Gods Word, we open the door to be wrong on the rest of it and this is one of those examples.

Rom. 11:25-26............
"For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, 'The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will remove ungodliness from Jacob,'”.

Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are “spiritualized” or “allegorized” into promises of God's blessing for the church.

Major (Not me) problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do these people explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?

 

[Major]

My dear brother, it's not about agreeing with me, it's receiving the Truth of the New Covenant Jer 31:31-4 and allowing the Holy Spirit to teach you, there are not many truths, there is only one Truth, Jesus said He was the Truth John 14:6 and He said when the Comforter comes He will teach us everything He (Jesus ) said John 14:26, Paul explains to us that we have the witness of the Holy Spirit inside of us Heb 10:15, John reiterates the same thing when he teaches the Unction inside of us will teach us all things 1 John 2:27, what does that mean, when we hear a teaching from the Holy Spirit through the operation of the gift of teaching in the church the Holy Spirit inside of us (the Witness) will comfort our hearts in saying, "it's true, it's true," notice we will be (1) comforted by the Comforter, and, John the Baptist said I have joy because I have heard His voice John 3:29, our (2) joy will be fulfilled because we have heard His voice, ...let everything be established by two witnesses. On the other hand, if it's not from the Holy Spirit then He will witness to our spirits that it's not from Him and hence not true, in place of comfort and joy there will be a check in our hearts and confusion in our minds.

Now here's the problem, it's what we have already learned, Jesus said be careful of what you listen to Mark 4:24, 25*, so if we have been deceived and allowed false teaching to enter in then because of the pride in our old man we don't want to admit we are wrong, ...it's hard to unlearn something we have already learned, especially if we have already repeated it.

* Here is a interpretation that might help to explain more clearly what Jesus was saying.

He went on to say, "Pay attention to what you're listening to! Knowledge will be measured out to you by the measure of attention you give. This is the way knowledge increases. Those who understand these mysteries will be given more knowledge. However, some people don't understand these mysteries. Even what they understand will be taken away from them." Mark 4:24, 25


A "cult" is defined by it's teaching.

1. A cult will deny the Deity of Jesus Christ John 1:1.
2. A cult will present another gospel Gal 1:6-9.
3. A cult will teach there are works necessary to obtain salvation contrary to Eph 2:8, 9.
4. A cult will teach that all roads lead to God, ...ecumenism as it's presently called has infiltrated and is embraced in the church today.

Remember the words of our Lord,

Go in through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there are who go in through it. Because narrow is the gate and constricted is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matt 7:13, 14

Strive to enter in at the narrow gate. For I say to you, many will seek to enter in and shall not be able. Luke 13:24

Bro, I'll pass on to you what I was taught,... be a Berean, Acts 17:11, that is, prayerfully search the Scriptures daily to see if what you are hearing is true, is there the witness of the Holy Spirit, also, there is only one Truth, if what we believe is contradicted by just one Scripture then what we believe is wrong, ...there is only one Truth.

Nice talking to you,

Blessings,

Gene

Outstanding Gene.......thanks !!!

 

[Major]

A good book that Scripturally teaches what the Blessing actually is and how to walk in it is "The Blessing of the Lord Maketh Rich" by Kenneth Copeland - it will change your life forever, and the lives of everyone in your line going forward.

I would argue that my brother. Mr. Copeland has published some of the strangest comments ever made concerning God and the scriptures.

I would recommend to all of the WOF believers here to get a copy of the book by David Hunt.....
"The Seduction of Christianity". He details and documents the exact comments and teachings of men such as Copeland, Hagin, Hinn etc.

If that does not open your eyes, nothing will.

 

[Major]

Beloved, what many believers cannot understand is that there is a difference between Jacob and Israel (as opposed to Israel and the Church). The promise was through Jacob; for he was of the lineage from where the Lord Jesus was born; but the blessing is in Israel, for he dared to want to know the NAME of the ONE with whom he wrestled (Gen. 32:29)
Beloved, the blessing of the Lord is for all who call (invoke) His NAME. Have we not understood? "For whosoever shall call on the NAME of the Lord shall be saved." The promise came and was fullfilled in the birth of Jesus Christ; the blessing was fullfilled on the Day of Pentecost, after the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. The promise and the blessing have come together
in the Church through His NAME!

This is incorrect my brother.
The promise of the Spirit, as referenced in Galatians 3:14 is defined in Romans 4, where it is written that the promise was that Abraham would be the heir of all things. (which is why we are joint-heirs with Jesus now through the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant in Christ).
The Blessing of the Lord did not come on Jacob when he wrestled and prevailed, it was actually his by birth, for all in Abraham's lineage had it on them by birth, according to the covenant. The mark of the covenant was the circumcision (I would recommend an excellent series by Kenneth Copeland called Covenant Made By Blood, or EW Kenyon's Blood Covenant book).
The Blessing of Abraham in Galatians 3:14 is the Blessing of the Lord (Proverbs 10:22) which is the same as the original blessing on Adam and Eve (Genesis 1:28). Then look at how God blessed Abraham (in other words, what the result was) (Genesis 24:35, Genesis 13:2, 12:3).
Read Hebrews 4 and see that the GOSPEL was preached unto to the Israelites in the wilderness, and that God says He preached the Gospel unto Abraham beforehand in Galatians 3. Most Christians think that the Gospel is Jesus being the forgiveness of their sins on the cross. Well that is true, but it is only 1 part of it - the rest is that it translated you OUT of the curse and the kingdom of darkness and translated you INTO the Kingdom of God's dear Son and under the Blessing of the Lord/Abraham (Col 1:13).
It is how Jesus did everything He did - He walked in the fullness of the blessing of Abraham.
Paul said in Romans 15:29 that he was coming in the FULLNESS of the blessing of the Gospel of Christ.
If it the Gospel is merely the forgiveness of sins, then how can Paul come in the fullness of it? You are either forgiven or you are not, there are no degrees of forgiveness.
The Blessing is EVERYTHING. And Jesus got it back for us.
It's why there were no miracles in the Garden of Eden - they didn't need them - they had the Blessing of the Lord.
It's why there are no miracles in Canaan - they have the Blessing of the Lord.
It's why there won't be any miracles in Heaven - we will have the fullness of the Blessing of the Lord, there will be no need of miracles.
The Blessing is your birthright by the shed blood of no less a Person than Jesus Christ the Lord God Himself.
Learn how to walk in it - you need to use your tongue; see Joshua 1:8, Deut 30:19, Prov 18:20-21, etc.
It takes love to work your faith and it takes faith to work the Blessing.
It's why the Jews no matter where they go, they own everything, they have all the money - it's because they taught this daily to their children and expect it and speak it and declare it on everything, everyday, they laid their hands on their children and declared it on them, and so on.
Build your expectation, start declaring Deut 28:1-13 over yourself and into the fabric of your life. Prov 10:22 also, for who can you possibly bless if you can only take care of you?[/quote]
**************************

I have no idea how this came through like this.

I thought Rodain was the 3 headed flying monster that Godzilla killed.

 

[Candelario Mario Villa]

You have covered it well. Any argument against those scriptures in an effort to try to support replacement theology would be silly at best.
Replacement theology states :

1. The Jewish people are no longer God's chosen people. Instead, the Christian church now makes up God's chosen people. This implies that God has a short attention span.
   
2. In the New Testament after Pentecost, the term "Israel" refers to the church. The Term Israel can refer to Jacob, to the nation of Israel to Jesus even because it means the servant of the Lord.
   
3. The Mosaic covenant (Exodus 20) is replaced by the new covenant (Luke 22:20). The new covenant made in the blood of Christ replaces an old covenant, not people.
4. Actual circumcision is replaced by a circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29). Circumcision as practiced by the OT is of no value, but it is not logically a dis qualifier of people, else non circumcision would be a qualifier of salvation. Gal 5:2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. Clearly this is Paul's opinion, but not a directive from the Lord, now read on..
   Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
   So this puts the matter in proper perspective.. the argument about circumcision supporting replacement theology has no substance.

___________________________________________

Thank you for taking the time, Beloved.
I agree with what you have written...except for not quite understanding #4: I take it Paul was referring to going back to serve the Law, and not circumcision by itself.
It would also be my contention that a person who will try to justify himself by any other means except through the Gospel that saves, is in peril of making grace null and void in their lives.

I know some will say that believing in Jesus is enough for salvation; I would have to counter and say, do you believe enough to obey? No? Tnen believing will profit you nothing. Yes? Then obey!

 

[Candelario Mario Villa]

My dear brother, it's not about agreeing with me, it's receiving the Truth of the New Covenant Jer 31:31-4 and allowing the Holy Spirit to teach you, there are not many truths, there is only one Truth, Jesus said He was the Truth John 14:6 and He said when the Comforter comes He will teach us everything He (Jesus ) said John 14:26, Paul explains to us that we have the witness of the Holy Spirit inside of us Heb 10:15, John reiterates the same thing when he teaches the Unction inside of us will teach us all things 1 John 2:27, what does that mean, when we hear a teaching from the Holy Spirit through the operation of the gift of teaching in the church the Holy Spirit inside of us (the Witness) will comfort our hearts in saying, "it's true, it's true," notice we will be (1) comforted by the Comforter, and, John the Baptist said I have joy because I have heard His voice John 3:29, our (2) joy will be fulfilled because we have heard His voice, ...let everything be established by two witnesses. On the other hand, if it's not from the Holy Spirit then He will witness to our spirits that it's not from Him and hence not true, in place of comfort and joy there will be a check in our hearts and confusion in our minds.
Now here's the problem, it's what we have already learned, Jesus said be careful of what you listen to Mark 4:24, 25*, so if we have been deceived and allowed false teaching to enter in then because of the pride in our old man we don't want to admit we are wrong, ...it's hard to unlearn something we have already learned, especially if we have already repeated it.
* Here is a interpretation that might help to explain more clearly what Jesus was saying.
He went on to say, "Pay attention to what you're listening to! Knowledge will be measured out to you by the measure of attention you give. This is the way knowledge increases. Those who understand these mysteries will be given more knowledge. However, some people don't understand these mysteries. Even what they understand will be taken away from them." Mark 4:24, 25
A "cult" is defined by it's teaching.
1. A cult will deny the Deity of Jesus Christ John 1:1.
2. A cult will present another gospel Gal 1:6-9.
3. A cult will teach there are works necessary to obtain salvation contrary to Eph 2:8, 9.
4. A cult will teach that all roads lead to God, ...ecumenism as it's presently called has infiltrated and is embraced in the church today.
Remember the words of our Lord,
Go in through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there are who go in through it. Because narrow is the gate and constricted is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matt 7:13, 14
Strive to enter in at the narrow gate. For I say to you, many will seek to enter in and shall not be able. Luke 13:24
Bro, I'll pass on to you what I was taught,... be a Berean, Acts 17:11, that is, prayerfully search the Scriptures daily to see if what you are hearing is true, is there the witness of the Holy Spirit, also, there is only one Truth, if what we believe is contradicted by just one Scripture then what we believe is wrong, ...there is only one Truth.
Nice talking to you,
Blessings,
Gene

_______________________________________________________

Beloved, I only agree with truth: if you have it, fine: if you don't, then we'll be in disagreement. Either way, many times we
can not both be right, although we can both be wrong!
I Jn. 2:27 _ tells us that we have no need for another to teach us...if we have already graduated from boot camp. I submit
that too many believers are still in boot camp, and they are just repeating what they have heard. The anointing (unction) comes after receiving the Gospel that saves. Once we have the map and know how to read it, we "...need not that another
man teach you." Else, if this were not so, the Ministry would be void and there would be no need for "...some apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teahers." But there are so many denominations, and the
Church is so sectionalized into different camps, that we need the Ministry as never before.
Beloved, walk holy in the Lord.

 

[Candelario Mario Villa]

Not sure where you got that info JPT? but it did not happen, the last person K.H. spoke to was his wife of many years. Look, there are enough real problems in the WOF without making stuff up. I left the WOF because of pride and greed, I need not make up stuff or bear false witness. There was an attempt by Hagin to correct some, but it was not on his deathbed and it was not a confession of wrong doctrine on his behalf.

______________________________________________

Kenneth Hagin's son still plays KH's cassettes on radio, but the Gospel is not the same as KH originally taught. Before he died, KH was preaching and teaching the true Gospel. It was not just a deathbed confession: but not many (if any) of the prosperity
gospel preachers took it to heart. There is just too much money involved.

 

[Candelario Mario Villa]

Would that be the same doctrine that Dad Hagin told, Copeland, Osteen, Dollar and the rest of his disciples gathered around his (Hagin) death bed that he had been wrong about the prosperity doctrine he taught?
Blessings,
Gene

___________________________________-

Beloved, I don't know about any "deathbed" confession. You call KH "Dad": was he your [natural] father? Do you still play his
tapes over the radio?
Walk in the Spirit, Beloved.

 

[Candelario Mario Villa]

No, Mr. Villa Nicodemus was not "using another definition" are you kidding? He was asking the Lord what He was trying to say by a "man must be born-again" and so what if you have a inter-linear what does that prove or mean as the reading is clear? Is a mothers womb "above"? Is the exact word translated different in 5 directly related passages? No, Mr Villa it is not and this passage cannot read as you have tried to teach it to others. You are in error and if you are the "man of God" you claim? You will admit the truth and repent.

_______________________________________________

It may help if you take your fingers out of your ears!

 

[Brother Paul]

There has been so much great information here I would say congrats...but I would also add that for pre-Mill there are two schools, that of the dispensationalists from which we get the replacement view and that of the early church for the first 300 years which is a pre-Mill view but not dispensationalist wherein the Church goes through the Anti-Christ's part of the trib and then He comes at which point a number of things happen...the millenium begins at the coming...the church is a new creation in this view (one new man in Messiah made up of Jews and Gentiles)....God is not with the Jews (only those who refuse to accept Messiah) He is drawing them (and the lost House of Israel) to Christ through the Church (the called out body) preaching the gospel

a) the Anti-Christ is consumed by the brightness of His coming

b) The whole world (every eye) shall see it (his coming in the clouds), and mourn because of Him

c) the dead in Christ rise and together with those still living (that is saved Spirit filled believers) are gathered unto Him (caught up as Paul would say)

d) this begins the Millennium, Satan is locked away for that 1,000 years, and the wrath of God is poured out on the unbelieving nations

Just $.02 to round off the dollar...

A really great book that discusses the two Pre-Mill, the Post Mill, and Amill is The meaning of the Millenium: Four Views, by Robert Clouse, Intervarsity Press, 1979, where these great scholars discuss and counterpoint each others positions.

Love

brother Paul

 

[Candelario Mario Villa]

Yeah bro, he was named supplanter because of his action at birth, read the story of his life, was he not a dirty rotten deceiving scoundrel? Names in the Old Testament are keys that unlock the Word for us, if we insert the meaning of the name into the situation it well give us insight, take the well known story of David and Goliath, David knew from the names mentioned where the Philistines were camped and the army of Israel (remember, governed by God) were camped that Goliath was already judged by God, David believed in faith (and faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word of God), that God would give him the victory and not only over Goliath, ...we read he chose five smooth stones, but the four brothers of Goliath also.
Blessings,
Gene

________________________________________________

Beloved, the Lord spoke to Rebekah, saying that she had twins in her: also saying "...the elder shall serve the younger." I submit that he was named supplanter because the birthright would be on him: nothing more.
Yes, names were and are vey important. However, the prophecy of God did not mean to make Jacob out a scounderl. Then we have this: Jacob bought the birthright from Esau for a bowl of porridge. Tell me, who acted in faith? Did Jacob deceive Esau? No! Did Jacob deceive his father? No! Jacob was only claiming what was his: he bought the birthright.

Amen. David believed by his experience that God was able to deliver the giant into his hands. Did the Lord not give David a lion and a bear? And yes: the historical data of the Bible tells us that Goliath had four other brothers. And perhaps David had them
in mind when he chose the "...five smooth stones out of the brook...". But God also had other thingss in mind: it was the Ministry.
There were five giants, including Goliath. They were each killed in battle by five different Israelites. David was only the first: just as Jesus was only the first "...among many Brethren...". Beloved, there are still giants in the world, and we are called to take up our arms ("...of the Spirit..."), and fight and slay them. "WE LIVE IN TWO REALMS: THE NATURAL REALM, AND THE SPIRITUAL REALM. tHE NATURAL REALM ATTESTS TO THE SPIRITUAL; AND THE SPIRITUAL MANIFESTS ITSELF IN THE NATURAL."
Walk in the Lord,Beloved.

 

[Candelario Mario Villa]

There has been so much great information here I would say congrats...but I would also add that for pre-Mill there are two schools, that of the dispensationalists from which we get the replacement view and that of the early church for the first 300 years which is a pre-Mill view but not dispensationalist wherein the Church goes through the Anti-Christ's part of the trib and then He comes at which point a number of things happen...the millenium begins at the coming...the church is a new creation in this view (one new man in Messiah made up of Jews and Gentiles)....God is not with the Jews (only those who refuse to accept Messiah) He is drawing them (and the lost House of Israel) to Christ through the Church (the called out body) preaching the gospel
a) the Anti-Christ is consumed by the brightness of His coming
b) The whole world (every eye) shall see it (his coming in the clouds), and mourn because of Him
c) the dead in Christ rise and together with those still living (that is saved Spirit filled believers) are gathered unto Him (caught up as Paul would say)
d) this begins the Millennium, Satan is locked away for that 1,000 years, and the wrath of God is poured out on the unbelieving nations
Just $.02 to round off the dollar...
A really great book that discusses the two Pre-Mill, the Post Mill, and Amill is The meaning of the Millenium: Four Views, by Robert Clouse, Intervarsity Press, 1979, where these great scholars discuss and counterpoint each others positions.
Love brother Paul

_______________________________________________________

I have to say "Amen." The sad part is that the Church is not being taught "...the work of the ministry...". But that's another story.

 

[JustPassingThru]

[QUOTENot sure where you got that info JPT? but it did not happen, the last person K.H. spoke to was his wife of many years. Look, there are enough real problems in the WOF without making stuff up. I left the WOF because of pride and greed, I need not make up stuff or bear false witness. There was an attempt by Hagin to correct some, but it was not on his deathbed and it was not a confession of wrong doctrine on his behalf.][/QUOTE]

Mitspa,

I say this in all gentleness and brotherly love, it's not my intention to argue or debate.

Look at what you said:

1. there are enough real problems in the WOF,
Enough real problems? How could that be, if as stated here in this thread, he was a real man of God, if his ministry was inspired and directed by the Holy Spirit? I'm not saying churches don't have problems, but these problems weren't congregational, but rather problems with pastoral teaching.

2.I left the WOF because of pride and greed.
I commend you for leaving, I left my first church because of doctrinal errors, pride and greed, my eyes were opened by what I read in James,

But if you are bitterly jealous and filled with self-centered ambition, don't brag. Don't say that you are wise when it isn't true. That kind of wisdom doesn't come from above. It belongs to this world. It is self-centered and demonic. Wherever there is jealousy and rivalry, there is disorder and every kind of evil. Jas 3:14-16

and after I left every other kind of evil became known to all, so according to the inspired writings of James, verified by you own testimony, there must be every other kind of evil in the WOF movement too..

3. There was an attempt by Hagin to correct some.
You say attempt to correct, so if he saw the need to correct then there was wrong doctrine, did his disciples submit to his authority as their pastor or are they continuing on to this day in rebellion to what he said?

And may I humbly ask, if you saw enough problems to make you leave, then why are you defending the WOF movement rather than warning the sheep of the danger?

IN His Love,

Gene

 

[Candelario Mario Villa]

[QUOTE
Not sure where you got that info JPT? but it did not happen, the last person K.H. spoke to was his wife of many years. Look, there are enough real problems in the WOF without making stuff up. I left the WOF because of pride and greed, I need not make up stuff or bear false witness. There was an attempt by Hagin to correct some, but it was not on his deathbed and it was not a confession of wrong doctrine on his behalf.]

Mitspa,
I say this in all gentleness and brotherly love, it's not my intention to argue or debate.
Look at what you said:
1. there are enough real problems in the WOF,
Enough real problems? How could that be, if as stated here in this thread, he was a real man of God, if his ministry was inspired and directed by the Holy Spirit? I'm not saying churches don't have problems, but these problems weren't congregational, but rather problems with pastoral teaching.
2.I left the WOF because of pride and greed.
I commend you for leaving, I left my first church because of doctrinal errors, pride and greed, my eyes were opened by what I read in James,
But if you are bitterly jealous and filled with self-centered ambition, don't brag. Don't say that you are wise when it isn't true. That kind of wisdom doesn't come from above. It belongs to this world. It is self-centered and demonic. Wherever there is jealousy and rivalry, there is disorder and every kind of evil. Jas 3:14-16
and after I left every other kind of evil became known to all, so according to the inspired writings of James, verified by you own testimony, there must be every other kind of evil in the WOF movement too..
3. There was an attempt by Hagin to correct some.
You say attempt to correct, so if he saw the need to correct then there was wrong doctrine, did his disciples submit to his authority as their pastor or are they continuing on to this day in rebellion to what he said?
And may I humbly ask, if you saw enough problems to make you leave, then why are you defending the WOF movement rather than warning the sheep of the danger?
IN His Love, Gene[/quote]
__________________________________________________________

Good post.

 

[JustPassingThru]

Beloved, the Lord spoke to Rebekah, saying that she had twins in her: also saying "...the elder shall serve the younger." I submit that he was named supplanter because the birthright would be on him: nothing more.
Yes, names were and are vey important. However, the prophecy of God did not mean to make Jacob out a scounderl. Then we have this: Jacob bought the birthright from Esau for a bowl of porridge. Tell me, who acted in faith? Did Jacob deceive Esau? No! Did Jacob deceive his father? No! Jacob was only claiming what was his: he bought the birthright.

Amen. David believed by his experience that God was able to deliver the giant into his hands. Did the Lord not give David a lion and a bear? And yes: the historical data of the Bible tells us that Goliath had four other brothers. And perhaps David had them
in mind when he chose the "...five smooth stones out of the brook...". But God also had other thingss in mind: it was the Ministry.
There were five giants, including Goliath. They were each killed in battle by five different Israelites. David was only the first: just as Jesus was only the first "...among many Brethren...". Beloved, there are still giants in the world, and we are called to take up our arms ("...of the Spirit..."), and fight and slay them. "WE LIVE IN TWO REALMS: THE NATURAL REALM, AND THE SPIRITUAL REALM. tHE NATURAL REALM ATTESTS TO THE SPIRITUAL; AND THE SPIRITUAL MANIFESTS ITSELF IN THE NATURAL."
Walk in the Lord,Beloved.

Mario,

The birthright went to the first born, that was Esau, not Jacob, Jacob caused Esau to sell his birthright to him rather than just give him the food in brotherly love.

You said it, ...he bought the birthright, he deceived his father into giving him the blessing, he cheated Laban, ...I don't know how you interpret that, but to me that is a description of a dirty rotten deceiving scoundrel.

The lesson, ...if Jacob really believed in faith the prophecy given to Rachael concerning himself, then he would of waited patiently so see how God would of make it come about instead of buying, deceiving and cheating.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:1



[QUOTEThere were five giants, including Goliath. They were each killed in battle by five different Israelites. David was only the first: just as Jesus was only the first "...among many Brethren...". Beloved, there are still giants in the world, and we are called to take up our arms ("...of the Spirit..."), and fight and slay them. "WE LIVE IN TWO REALMS: THE NATURAL REALM, AND THE SPIRITUAL REALM. tHE NATURAL REALM ATTESTS TO THE SPIRITUAL; AND THE SPIRITUAL MANIFESTS ITSELF IN THE NATURAL."
Walk in the Lord,Beloved][/QUOTE]

Yes, the five giants were killed by five different men, my point was David, in faith, knew by the names of their encampment they would not be victorious over the army of Israel.

I don't understand this,

there are still giants in the world, and we are called to take up our arms

I read in my Bible,

And having spoiled principalities and powers, he (Jesus) made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Col 2:15 KJV

He (Jesus) defeated the rulers and powers of the spiritual world. With the cross he won the victory over them and led them away, as defeated and powerless prisoners for the whole world to see. Col 2:15 ERV

In the battle with Goliath, David was a type of Jesus, he picked up five stones to kill all of the giants, the other four giants were subsequently killed by his men, but Paul is telling us our giant killer, Jesus didn't kill just five giants, but was victorious over all of the demonic hordes on the Cross, ....question, where do these giants, that we need to take up arms against, come from, if Jesus triumphed over all of them on the Cross?

Here Paul tells us the opposition we fight against,

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 2Co 10:4, 5

pulling down - the demolition of
strong holds - argument (figuratively, he already said it not carnal but spiritual)
Casting down - destroying
imaginations - the word is logismos - coming from the root word logos - from which we call our Bibles the
Word,
high thing - a barrier (figuratively)
exalteth itself - exalt self - pride
knowledge - gnōsis- knowing (the act)

Here is what Paul teaches us to fight against, ...we fight against, we demolish the strongholds that bind men in their struggles with sin in their lives, we destroy the imaginary and false interpretations that are against or refute the accomplished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross.

No giants, the demons have all been defeated, what plagues mankind is their sin and false doctrine.

Blessings,

Gene

 

[Mitspa]

[QUOTENot sure where you got that info JPT? but it did not happen, the last person K.H. spoke to was his wife of many years. Look, there are enough real problems in the WOF without making stuff up. I left the WOF because of pride and greed, I need not make up stuff or bear false witness. There was an attempt by Hagin to correct some, but it was not on his deathbed and it was not a confession of wrong doctrine on his behalf.]

Mitspa,

I say this in all gentleness and brotherly love, it's not my intention to argue or debate.

Look at what you said:

1. there are enough real problems in the WOF,
Enough real problems? How could that be, if as stated here in this thread, he was a real man of God, if his ministry was inspired and directed by the Holy Spirit? I'm not saying churches don't have problems, but these problems weren't congregational, but rather problems with pastoral teaching.

2.I left the WOF because of pride and greed.
I commend you for leaving, I left my first church because of doctrinal errors, pride and greed, my eyes were opened by what I read in James,

But if you are bitterly jealous and filled with self-centered ambition, don't brag. Don't say that you are wise when it isn't true. That kind of wisdom doesn't come from above. It belongs to this world. It is self-centered and demonic. Wherever there is jealousy and rivalry, there is disorder and every kind of evil. Jas 3:14-16

and after I left every other kind of evil became known to all, so according to the inspired writings of James, verified by you own testimony, there must be every other kind of evil in the WOF movement too..

3. There was an attempt by Hagin to correct some.
You say attempt to correct, so if he saw the need to correct then there was wrong doctrine, did his disciples submit to his authority as their pastor or are they continuing on to this day in rebellion to what he said?

And may I humbly ask, if you saw enough problems to make you leave, then why are you defending the WOF movement rather than warning the sheep of the danger?

IN His Love,

Gene[/quote]
JPT, the WOF is not an organized denomination or was not at K.H. time. It was based on some teachings (from him and some others) and many called themselves WOF as many still do. K. H. had no power to enforce anything on anyone who claimed to be WOF. (other than his morale opinion) His attempt to correct others , was that he saw that some -many- most? Where using the laws of faith and the teachings of the New Testament on giving and Gods blessing on our giving in the error of greed. I am not defending the WOF "movement" I defend the "truth" that they had, and the core and foundation being the righteousness of faith, and Gods goodness and power working on behalf of the righteous in Christ. If one is so blind they cannot see the greed of some of these people, my warning will have little effect. If some are so hard hearted that cannot recognized the pride of those who blow and boast, then I doubt they understand humility themselves? Just like if a group is known to molest children and protect those who do such things, and the members of that group do not flee? What good will it do to try to reason from the truth of scripture to such people? I say what is know is true, I am glad to explain what I have seen, just as in every group I have fellowshipped with, the wolves and the tares are all around the sheep, but most of the sheep are just too blind to see.

 

[JustPassingThru]

Thank you Mitspa for you kind and loving reply to a potentially volatile subject, I too am in the same situation as you, the sheep would rather have their ears tickled by ambitious and greedy men rather than listen to the truth.

It's been some time now, but I read here on the internet about Hagin's calling his proteges to him and asking them to stop abusing and teaching the prosperity doctrine, and that came to me from a news letter from either the Berean Call or Search the Scriptures, ...that is what I was making a reference to.

Lord bless you brother,

Gene

 

[Mitspa]

Thank you Mitspa for you kind and loving reply to a potentially volatile subject, I too am in the same situation as you, the sheep would rather have their ears tickled by ambitious and greedy men rather than listen to the truth.

It's been some time now, but I read here on the internet about Hagin's calling his proteges to him and asking them to stop abusing and teaching the prosperity doctrine, and that came to me from a news letter from either the Berean Call or Search the Scriptures, ...that is what I was making a reference to.

Lord bless you brother,

Gene

That is true, I would that some would consider Paul, who valued the truth above his own needs and desires. That he would never bring shame to the gospel. May I and others by the grace of God preach and teach the gospel and hold it in the way that Paul did.

 

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

So then, if I understand your doctrine you believe what the word says and then you chose and use whatever verse that fits your need, is that correct?

Blessings,

Gene

Hello Gene, I believe what the Word says, and because of the Covenant that I am in with the Father through Jesus I have access to whatever He has agreed to do/give/supply through that Covenant. If I have a need, then He has already released at the cross whatever the answer is for that need. And yes, I do stand on His Word, just like Jesus did, and I expect the Father to perform His Word, just like He did starting with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and going forward through Jesus, just like all the original Apostles, and then the other Apostles (like Paul, Silas, Barnabas, etc) did.
We have no expectation for anything if it isn't in the Word as a promise. Thankfully, as God has said in Gal 3:29, we have His promises from Abraham going forward, since the only reason God did anything for the Israelites was because of His covenant with Abraham and the reason we got Jesus is because of Abraham (God asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac released God to sacrifice Jesus for us, according to how a blood covenant works).

 

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

I will put this out there for serious consideration; if, as some insist, the promises to Israel are only to the nation of Israel, then where did those promises come from? WHY did God help Israel and give them Moses and take them out of Egypt in the first place and lead them to Canaan?
The answer of course is that He did it to fulfill His everlasting covenant with Abraham. The covenant with Israel (which is not the covenant He wanted to make, but was a concession to their pride (He said I am poised to make you a nation of Kings of Priests, and they said, whatever you have for us to do, we are well-able to do it, so they removed themselves from the covenant of grace and forced God to make a covenant of Law with them so they could earn the blessing rather than get it like they had been, through grace (favor)) is the fulfillment of the covenant with Abraham and is therefore a continuation of the original covenant with Abraham.
Then when Jesus comes, He is the final fulfillment of both covenants, though it started with Abraham.
God did not bless the "nation" of Abraham, He blessed HIM. Just as He did not bless the nation of Isaac, but blessed Isaac himself.
Jacob/Israel was blessed HIMSELF, and so were all his seed. It was by birth, if you were of the bloodline of Abraham, you had the blessing of the Lord on you.
Then people say foolish things like, well if the Blessing makes you rich, why isn't EVERY Believer rich, since that's God's perfect will?

Then we have to ask since God's perfect will is that EVERONE knows Him and receives Christ, why isn't EVERYONE saved yet? That's God's will after all - He is not willing that ANY should perish. Yet we know that we have billions of earthlings who do NOT know God or Jesus. How is this possible if God's will is for ALL mankind to come to Christ.....hmmm....?
If God's perfect will is that no one is ever abused/hurt/harmed, etc, then how is it that people suffer these things...and "good" people too...even Christians...? For God's perfect will is Heaven, where no one is ever harmed, just like in Eden...yet how can it be so...?
Is is possible that just because something is God's will, it doesn't mean that it is AUTOMATIC?

God's will is that all be saved, yet that is not automatic, it took us acting in faith and receiving what He had already done and the Word became salvation to us...
In the same way, God's people the Israelites were in Egypt, in God's will in that they were His people through the covenant with Abraham. Yet they suffered slavery and did not even own their own bodies and never had enough (and yet it took over 400 years until SOMEONE called out in faith to God...astounding!).
Then they are brought out with miracles and into the wilderness where they have just enough, and God does fabulous things on this short journey, yet all the while He is letting them know it is not His perfect will, but that He has a place He calls the Promised Land (promised to who? ABRAHAM) which is Canaan the land of abundance, of always more than enough.
Then they come to Canaan, and they give an evil unbelieving report of what God has called good and they cannot enter because of unbelief. Was that God's will that they wander for 40 years while the unbelieving people of God's people died off? He said it wasn't.
Yet their unbelief is recorded for us it says in 1 Cor 10 to serve as an example for us that we may not miss out on God's perfect will as they did.
See also Hebrews 3 and 4 for this too (and note that God says the GOSPEL was preached unto them - the Blessing).

God's will was that MOSES go into the Promised Land, but Joshua did it instead because Moses disqualified himself. God's will was that the journey to the Promised Land took about a week or so, but the people disqualified themselves through their unbelief and their gainsaying of God, insisting that if what God said was true they'd have all seen it by now and it would be upon them all already...

Again, all of that stuff given to them was from God's covenant with Abraham and God relates to them what life is like under the Blessing of the Lord vs what is like under the curse. WHO gave the tithes by the way? Was it a national tithe or did each individual come and bring their tithes? And when God is rebuking the PEOPLE in verse 8 of Malachi 3, He says it is the men who are doing it, even the entire nation (meaning the priests are included) and then they say, how are WE robbing You? If God wanted to correct them and say, "I did not say you individuals, I meant you Israel as a nation only" He would have, yet He does not and leaves it as INDIVIDUALS.
The individuals of the nation of God's people make up the nation...What was going to happen to Abraham as a result of the everlasting covenant (notice God said it was an EVERLASTING covenant - it did not end, it was fulfilled with Jesus' new covenant, and we are back to receiving the Blessing as Abraham did, in faith because of God's grace)? He was going to have children, who would have more children, etc, and even though they comprised a nation of people they were blessed individually through the covenant. How was Jesus blessed? If HE was blessed, and now you are one with Him, a joint heir with Him (Romans 8:17), and you ARE as He IS NOW in THIS WORLD (1 John 4:17) - then...YOU ARE BLESSED, even apart from everything else I've already explained, you must see this. Is Jesus blessed? Then SO ARE YOU, or the Word of God is wrong (and that obviously is not an option).

We are warned to not miss out on God's good, acceptable and perfect will (Romans 12 - why doesn't He just say will, why does He add good and acceptable and perfect - and why does He say YOU prove it (like Joshua 1:8)?) like they did, because even when they got into the Promised Land, only JUDAH did what God's perfect will was - to possess everything there and have much more than enough. They could have been like the other unbelieving tribes of God's people that Joshua had to go rebuke over their refusal to go possess it once within it.

It is the same today, if you want to take God at His Word and receive all that He's promised to you, you may, and He is glad to do it. OR you can believe Satan's lies about disqualifying you from everything and only getting things when you get to Heaven...it's up to you, because as Romans 12 says, YOU will prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God, not Him (in other words, IT'S NOT AUTOMATIC). Will you believe God's Word or man's vain philosophies and traditions and opinions that SPOIL you (Colossians 2:8)?