Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by THALLON, Sep 12, 2014.
Please read comment #32.
I only quote from the KJV .
Two problems then and which highlight what is happening in the church .
One person replied that the Aramaic word had no word for eagle and so it must be vulture that was meant . As if God does not know his own mind .
Two . You reply that it is a Hebrew word that is translated and "OFTEN" signifies "the vulture " While I will not contend the matter that often it signifies the vulture .(though it is not substantiated) .That does not mean that in this case it does .
I stand corrected as to the "body" for it is not the only word used as I had not read all the scriptures pertaining to the quote .
For in Luke 17:37 it is body . Mathew 24 :28 it is carcase . etc .
But the word eagle is always used .
But the word "vulture " is used in other places Lev 11 :14, Deut 13:14, Job 28:7, Issiah 34:15.
Which I must thank you for another line of study .
But which refutes the other poster who said it can ONLY be vulture for translation reasons.
When I quote scripture I nearly always "quote" it . That I do not always give the reference I cannot always do . But will endeavour to do sow hen I can. I note that Paul or others did not do so . Just a moot point as he assumes a knowledge of the scriptures by his readers. But not all have .I accept. But let it be on the understanding that I am not presenting them as so called "proof texts" as I see nowhere in scripture to encourage such use of scripture. But use them as the building blocks or skeleton of my argument even as it is so used in scripture by any one contending for the faith that was once and for all delivered unto the saints .
You have not proved or tried and tested by scripture your assertion that those "taken" are dead . For is it not written not all shall sleep"? 1Cor 15
Where the whole chapter is about death and the resurrection and of the sleep of the believer and the perishing of the unbeliever.
"Thus I show you a mystery , we shall not all sleep .........."
As for the Aramaic word I have answered elsewhere.
Vulture in Aramaic is probably
But why worry about that? Jesus mostly did not speak Aramaic,(sorry Mel Gibson) and when He did we are told so and a translation is given.
Just for help for the ignorant.
Can you explain why you think that is the Aramaic word for vulture?
I would agree with you as to the Primary language he spoke was Hebrew .
Looking up the word Aramaic in that internet encyclopedia that always comes up first in any search (why is that>?) The roots of it in Babylon and all those other places where great errors of teaching have sprung from was an interesting aspect of it .
Hebrew lettering of today is actual Aramaic...
Yet even I can recognise that what you quoted as Aramaic and pertained to 'vultures' was what I would call Arabic .
and what The Jews today would write is Hebrew.
So I don't understands your reasoning .
It is getting bad when I quote myself.
Well I did say "probably"
Why? because Aramaic seems to have been the source language for most Semitic languages, not the least of which is Arabic.
I'm no linguistics Phd, I just thought/think the statement that there is no Aramaic word for vulture is a bit suspect.
The squiggles I pasted are not strictly speaking Aramaic..they are Arabic, and not Hebrew, but I suspect they will be closer to Aramaic than modern English is to olde English. or modern Greek to Hellenist Greek
As best we know, Jesus seldom spoke Aramaic, or at least of those things that are recorded for us He mostly did not use Aramaic. On those few occasions that Aramaic was recorded, there is also a translation given so I am mystified as to why the question of Aramaic even came up in a discussion about tribulation times.
I was as well .I could only think that the use of 'Aramaic ' But not so much for the end days but in a translations and is but another route to error but it will or may satisfy anyone wishing to satisfy an Islamic lobby who desires that all the so called world 'faiths' become one .
Ill stick to eagles
and to a suit of armour and sword well tied tested and proved .
I didn't quote that, you've confused me with someone else.
it was a bit confusing I apologise . But you did say the " Hebrew lettering of today is Aramaic "
I then following the argument and replied to Calvin who quoted some Aramaic with an Arabic script and then pointed out that the Hebrew script is not the same at all which countered your argument.
If then that is countered they have the same root. It does not follow they have the same meanings and if you accept the true account of the Tpwer of Babel all languages come from the same one root .
I only stated a fact, something you attack quite frequently I might add.
I simply do not agree and state why.With an argument that I think will substantiate why I disagree.
As each point comes up I seek to answer it so we can progress rather go around in circles . if you look at the sequence one person used Aramaic then another used Hebrew and another said one was the same as the other and yet the languages written is nothing like the other .
This I pointed out .
Getting back to the point as to whether it was eagles or vultures . that gather where the body is . I readily acknowledged that I had missed that other scriptures speak of carcase . So even if eagles they clearly can and do eat dead meat .Though I would suggest that there primary meat is that which they catch themselves.
Lot of real-estate to cover here.
I don't think we can know why the Lord took some such as Elijah and not others such as Abraham. Off hand I'd say that if the Lord took all the notable saints and left everyone else, then He would have created a class stratification that maybe is not His purpose.
Hmmm but didn't Paul say that not all would die. but those alive at that time would be changed? If that is the case then there would be no corpses (of the saints at least) lying around.
1Cor 15:51. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cor 15:52. in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
It is whee the body is, there the birds of prey will be, not the other way round, as you posted.
But in any event I suspect that what Jesus was getting at was that in respect of His return, we (the saints )will not be hanging around for people to say that He is in the desert or some other place. Check out the context::
Mat 24:26. So, if they say to you, 'Look, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.
Mat 24:27. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:28. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Where the body (Jesus ) is, there will the Eagles (the saints) be gathered around.
Bit of a different take on what has been circulating, but likely more correct too.
To hammer the point, or make it a bit more crystal, when Jesus returns, the saints will straight away be gathered to Him. Those who would falsely say anything about anything will not be present in the group so as to be heard speak.
If someone says that Jesus has returned, we can be very confident that they lie. Here is the exercise of faith; If I am still here Jesus has not returned because when He does come, He is coming for me! I have no need whatsoever for some person to tell me that He has returned.....I will know....This is my prayer,...... this is my hope,..... this is my faith.
this mortal body cannot inherit immortality...."Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. " So either the mortal body is transformed at rapture or abandoned and we put on a new body? While enoch and Elijah and Jesus went into heaven in their flesh, Moses was buried as was Abraham Isaac david etc.
What happened to Jesus' flesh body then?
They went to His tomb and found it empty...no corpse.
Some people believe that Enoch did not die but was taken directly to heaven where God is. But, Enoch eventually died, as all humans die. How can we know? The apostle Paul mentioned the circumstances associated with Enoch in Hebrews 11:5, along with other men of faith, and then stated: "These all died in faith, not having received the promises" (Hebrews 11:13). Yes, Enoch died, and he did not receive the promise of heaven (verse 16) at the time the book of Hebrews was written.
Based on Hebrews 11:5, 13 and Jesus’ statement in John.3:13, "no man hath ascended up to heaven", how are we to understand the account of Enoch? Genesis 5:21-24 says that Enoch's days, alive on Earth, ended at 365 years old. The question is, did he die, was he taken to heaven alive, or was he transported to another location on Earth?
Let us examine the bold phrase in Genesis 5:24, where it says, "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him" and compare the same Hebrew phrase in:
Psalms 37:36, "Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found."
Psalms 39:13, "O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and be no more."
The Hebrew for the phrases in bold are the same Hebrew as Genesis 5:24. As in the Psalms, the phrase means the person "passed away" or would eventually die. Let’s look at the same phrase in the book of Genesis:
Genesis 42:13, "And they said, Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is not." This was spoken by his brothers of Joseph. What’d they mean by "is not"?
Genesis 44:20, "And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him." Here, the brothers recount their previous discussion about Joseph with Pharaoh. When they first said, "and one is not," they meant Joseph "is dead."
Matthew 2:18, "In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not." Where were Rachel's children? Dead.
Hebrews 11:5, "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:" Does the phrase that says Enoch "should not see death" mean Enoch never died? Hebrews 11:13, "These all died [including Enoch] in faith." But not only that, verse 13 goes on to say that they did not receive the promises. One of the promises was a heavenly country (verse 16). If Enoch were in heaven, wouldn't he have received that promise?
Psalms 89:48, "What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah." Why would this Psalmist ask such a question concerning physical death if he believed Enoch did not see a physical death? The fact is, the Psalmist believed Enoch was in the grave and therefore asked this question.
So what does the phrase "should not see death" mean? Notice it is not in the present tense, that he "did not see" death, but that he "should not see death." John 8:51, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death" [see also John 11:26]. This phrase must mean "the second death," since all the Apostles kept Jesus’ sayings and yet died the first death.
Based on Hebrews 9:27, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" and Hebrews 11:13, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises," we must conclude that Enoch died the first death. To believe Enoch did not die is to deny the plain word of many other scriptures as well. For example, Romans 5:12; "...so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" and Romans 5:14, "...death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned." Are we to believe that Enoch did not sin? Are we to believe that a man who was not yet cleansed of sin by the blood of Jesus could enter heaven and dwell in God's presence?
But what about his translation in Hebrews 11:5? Does that mean he didn’t die? That’s what most people carelessly assume without proof. The Bible does not say that Enoch went to heaven when he was translated. Instead, it says he "was not found." According to Strong's, Thayer's and Bullinger's Greek Lexicons, "translate" means "to put or place in another place, to transport, to transfer." Nowhere in the Scripture does ‘translate’ mean to make immortal!
The same Greek word is rendered "carried over" in Acts 7:16 where Jacob's body was ‘translated’ or ‘transported’ to Sychem, where he was buried! The Scriptures say Jacob was translated to the place of burial! God took Enoch and buried him somewhere so as not to be found, just as he did with the body of Moses in Deuteronomy 34:6. No man knows where Moses' or Enoch’s grave is. God hid them for reasons known only to Him.
Notice another proof that ‘translate’ does not mean to make immortal. Paul wrote that the Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" (Colossians 1:13). The apostle Paul says that he was already translated, even though he was still physically alive! Although he was once part of the darkness of this world, he was translated, removed from darkness, into the light of the kingdom of God while he was physically alive!
At the age of 65, Enoch had a son named Methuselah. But how long did Enoch walk with God?
Genesis 5:22, "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters."
So, Enoch followed God’s ways for three hundred years. Notice that the Scripture does not record that Enoch is still walking with God. It says that Enoch WALKED with God for three hundred years, and not one year more. Why? Because "all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years" (Genesis 5:23). Paul says, in Colossians 1:10, "That ye might walk worthy of the Lord." Enoch walked with God and pleased God. This is what Genesis 5:22, 24 means when it says "Enoch walked with God."
1 Corinthians 15:20-23 says that all die and all shall be resurrected, but Messiah must be first in the order. Enoch could not possibly have preceded him, especially if he were still flesh and blood as it says in verses 49-52.
The only remaining texts that puzzle people are those relative to the appearances of Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus (Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-10, Luke 9:28-36). After the Transfiguration, Jesus said, while leaving the mountain, "Tell the vision to no man" (Matthew 17:9). Jesus calls the transfiguration a vision! A vision is not a material reality, but a supernatural picture observed by the eyes. The same Greek word for "vision" was used of Peter's vision of the unclean beasts being made clean (Acts 10:3, 17, 19; 11:5). They were not real but a supernatural picture. In the case of the transfiguration it was a prophetic vision which would take place in the future. Peter, James and John saw the Son of Man glorified in the Kingdom through a prophetic vision. Here are other examples:
Acts 16:9, "And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us." This also is something that was to happen in the future.
Acts 18:9-10, "Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city." Jesus is telling Paul that, in the near future, no man shall hurt him.
Visions should not be interpreted as literal. For example, look at Genesis 37:5-10. When Joseph dreamed that his "sheaf arose, and stood upright," and his brother’s sheaves bowed down to Joseph’s sheaf (verse 7), Or when Joseph dreamed that "the sun and the moon and the eleven stars" bowed down to Joseph (verse 9), is this literal? No. This was a prophetic vision of something that was to occur in the future; when Joseph’s mother, father, and brothers would bow down to him as King.
Both Moses and Elijah were still in their graves, but in vision both they and Jesus were seen in glory of the resurrection, and event to which Moses and Elijah have not yet attained at that time (Hebrews 11:39). The vision was granted the disciples after Jesus had spoken of the glory of immortality in the coming Kingdom.
The scriptures do not say "Lo here is Jesus or there is Jesus .Or Jesus is in the city etc . But CHRIST . Which means anointed or anointing .
To day we have many out and about saying lo here is the annointing or there is the anointing etc or the "new anointing " Do not go after them.
The eternal resting place of the Holy Spirit or the anointing is on the Word of God and Jesus .
For even as Jesus came up out of the waters of Baptism praying .The Holy Spirit descended on Him" in the form of a dove"
When Noah sent forth the dove .The first time it found no place of rest but returned from whence it came . But on the second time it found a place of rest and returned with a ernest of that rest and never came back again for it had found its rest .
In the Old testament the Holy Spirit came "upon" people and they wrought mighty works of God by faith . But it was not until the blood of Jesus was shed could the Holy Spirit not only "be upon you but IN you"
If you are a true BORN child of God by the Word and the Spirit of God .That baptism into the church and the filling of the Holy Spirit is that which has come "to ABIDE in you " Not for a moment and gone or for a short while and leave .But abide with your forever .
Remember the blind man from birth who the Lord healed? After he was healed and was presented to the religionists of the day who " KNEW that Jesus was a sinner" the very man who never had . and the once blind man who could now see had testified as to the truth . Afterward Jesus sought him out and said " if any man say he is Christ he will be cast out of the synagogues" he was not saying if any man say I am Jesus .Though some foolish people say that . if any man who says he is anointed is what it means . Not that they will go about preening themselves and pontificating about it . But will speak by their life and actions that they truly are . For" it is the anointing destroys the yoke"
Thus that anointing comes at a price . But one more valuable that riches or gold or prosperity . For the same will have to suffer without the camp even as Moses and the lord had to so suffer. and so too did Paul.
But Paul had a prosperity that not many know of today . Having nothing but make many rich . he but followed the Master "who was rich but became poor that we through His poverty might be made rich" A far greater prosperity and greater riches than what is peddled about by many today as being 'rich ' and prosperous .
The Holy Spirit then who is the Spirit of Christ the Spirit of truth has come to abide in us and for ever . "Greater then is He who is in us than he who is in the world " For it is God that worketh within us both to will and to do of His good pleasure "
and what we cannot do in the flesh nor will to accomplish .He with whom we are joined together for ever can and will if we are His as much if not more , than He is mine .