Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by THALLON, Sep 12, 2014.
Where does it say "they were killed"?
It does not .
Enoch was and then was not "for God took him " and in another place it says he was "translated "
and Elijah was taken up in a fiery chariot alive . and while the other prophets thought he was dead and looked for his body . He was not and there was no body .
Moses on the other hand died and was buried by God and no man could find his body .
No man is worthy even of all the truths God has given to them let alone their salvation of being BORNagain.
Not even Francis who ever that is .
Enoch was taken by the Lord . "for the Lord took him"
So then was Elijah taken from the presence of his servant in that chariot .
Your supposition then that people die when they are raptured is mistaken .
For we shall not all die says Paul.
But "will be changed in the twinkling of an eye " The mortal putting on immortality corruption putting on incoruption."
"Where the body is so there the eagles gather " Are like vultures . Save that it says eagles .
A vulture eats dead meat .carrion.
An eagle will only eat live meat it catches.
If then the eagles gather where the body is . Then those who think they live are in fact dead. or perhaps even those" who have a name that they live but are dead."
It also speaks of I think of the gathering of all those birds ready for the feast at the battle of Armageddon .
What worries me , is that In London you do not see many song birds any more .But you do see more; and only carrion birds.
Wise in that their vessels were full of oil when the call came .
It is not so much an escape for the primary motive for the Lords return is that I might gather you unto myself "..... that where I AM you maybe also "
Those who want to be close to the Lord as possible (see John) will be the most ready .
But its noteworthy that ALL 10 virgins fell asleep .
But the 5 wise were recognisable as the Bride and entered into the "marriage"
The 5 foolish were neither ready nor then recognisable as the Bride and were barred form the "marriage "with the words " I know ye not "
On that terrible day of judgment of the wicked the sinner and the ungodly they will be rejected from the KINGDOM as unrecognisable as SONS .
with the words " I NEVER knew you "
There is no word for eagle in aramaic, the term refers to "bird of prey" which includes vultures, eagles, hawks etc.
The correct interpretation is vultures, because the taken are dead.
It could be a prophetic word "eagles", which is the Greek word used, to infer the Romans... just a thought...
- Original: ἀετός
- Transliteration: Aetos
- Phonetic: ah-et-os'
1. an eagle: since eagles do not usually go in quest of carrion, this may to a vulture that resembles an eagle
2. an eagle as a standard (Roman Military)
Yes, those who are "taken" are those who are killed i. e. you WANT to be among those who are "left behind." The eagle is a bird of prey; its diet includes dead and decaying flesh.
While I once thought it must mean that . Experience has taught me however never to change the words of scripture to suit my thinking or understanding .
So I do not and have not .
It says Eagles and the meaning is what is suggested by the use of the word eagles . Though I will go to war on the matter as to why an "eagle " and not a vulture.
Vultures are not birds of prey as eagles and hawks etc are if at all(?)
So I will remain with the word "eagle "
For if by the word a vulture was meant then im sure there are words for a vulture are there not?
Aramaic or Hebrew?
Eagles as far as I am aware do not eat dead flesh .They kill what they eat .
Being an old country boy, I can assure you that eagles can and do eat dead animals and decaying carcass of dead prey hunted by some other animal on the land. Larger animals like seals or deer can also be their favorite if they are in a group.
You can read more at Buzzle: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/what-do-eagles-eat.html plus many, many other web sites.
Once again you did not post the Scripture you used. Since you did not list it we can then only assume that you meant It is found in Matthew 24:28(Holman)........
"Wherever the carcass is, there the vultures will gather."
The KJV does say 'eagles".
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
It is always expected that when Scriptures are posted there origination be so as well.
The Hebrew word nesher, translated "eagle", often signifies "the vulture," as in Micah 1:16.
Back to the question. Indeed! You asked what the PURPOSE of the Rapture was. Allow me to give you a Bible answer..............
1). Paul is writing to the CHURCH.
1 Thess. 1:1
"To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.
2). Paul is assuring the CHURCH.
1 Thess. 1:10
"and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers US from the wrath to come."
3). Paul tells US what is going to happen.
1 Thess. 4:1-18
"But we do not want you(THE CHURCH) to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words."
1 Thess. 5:9-11
"For God has not destined us(CHURCH) for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing."
5). Promise from Jesus.
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."
6). CONFIRMATION from the Lord Jesus concerning the promise given!
"Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth."
God give us mercy in love and patience....
Thank you LORD, Jesus Christ's name. Amen.
We must be very careful here, as one false view will be used by the enemy to build further false views, and before long, we can't see the forest for the trees.
For example, Enoch and Elijah were not "raptured," or, more properly, 'taken to be with the Lord forever,' as Christ has not yet returned.
We can already see fruits of these false views in ideas such as "body rapture" versus 'spirit rapture.'
These rabbit trails can be avoided if we stick to the plain truth of the scriptures and not to our ideas about those truths. e. g. "rapture." The word "rapture does not appear in scripture, so let 's not go there in the first instance.
It is Christ himself who is the firstfruits. Further, the end has not yet been attained:
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (1 Cr 15:20-26)
The "day of reckoning" is a totally separate event from the resurrection/"rapture" issue. It is not the second coming. It is an event spoken of in the New Testament when the LORD returns and "reckoneth" with his servants (Matthew 18:24). The word is associated with an accounting, or a numbering, and the event is described in Matthew 25 with the parable of the 10 virgins (Matthew 25:19).
The Bible teaches about a time when GOD will sharply escalate his dealings with unrepentant mankind - and a time when he will reckon with His servants. Ironically, the specific period when God inaugurates the Reckoning is almost universally taught to be a time when he will do the exact opposite of what the scriptures actually tell us he will do.
In what may very well be the greatest tragedy of the last two centuries, the dispensational theorists have seized the reins of leadership in the "church" and as they have consolidated their power, they have widely programmed millions of church attendees into believing in something called the "rapture." The great irony of this is found in the fact that many of the verses put forth to describe the so-called "rapture" actually describe an event that may more appropriately be dubbed the Reckoning.
One of the most common errors seen in prophetic studies is our apparent propensity to consolidate many passages into the same event - especially when such a compression is unwarranted by the text. Thus, when we see a verse that describes the wrath of God, many simply say this is the same thing as the second coming.
Others, in seeking to "rightly divide the word of truth," arbitrarily assume the "wrath" spoken of in a tribulational context, is the second "half" of a theoretical seven-year tribulation. Because the doctrine of a seven-year great tribulation is itself false, the assignment of the passages dealing with the "wrath of God" into a portion of this faultily derived seven-year period then compounds the error.
Thus, error exponentially engenders further error until the prophetic chronology that is specified in scripture becomes so completely convoluted that retrieving basic truth becomes a Herculean task. The largest single offender in this babelistic bovine eschatology of the modern church is the false doctrine of dispensationalism - also known as the rapture cult.
Lest we offend the cultists with the erroneous assumption that in slashing the false doctrine of pretribulationism we're propagating preterism or some abstract and non-literal form of the second coming, I'll hasten to state that Jesus Christ IS coming back in our time. Furthermore, he IS coming back physically, just as the angels stated at His ascension, "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."
The real question is not only WHEN is He coming back, but WHOM is He coming back to retrieve, and "what shall be the sign of His coming, and of the end of the world?"
If you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.
The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy. If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming -- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection.
In John chapter five, Jesus tells us how God The Father has committed the power of resurrection to him. Jesus says “He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 6:24, 28, 29) According to these passages, apparently there are two resurrections: one for those “that have done good,” and a resurrection for those “that have done evil.”
In one of the parallel accounts, a verse in Luke has Christ himself saying that the believer shall “be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:14) Another proof text of this dual aspect of the resurrection is found in the book of Acts when the Apostle Paul was brought before the Roman governor Felix and charged with heresy by the Jews.
Paul stated that he believes, as the Jews did, “that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” (Ezekiel 33:8, 4) A further example of this understanding of two resurrections is found in the Old Testament, when the prophet Daniel was instructed by the archangel Michael concerning the tribulation and the resurrection. In that instance, Michael said that in the time of the end, “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2)
Back in the New Testament book of Revelation, we find a reference to “the first resurrection.” (Rev. 20:5) This first resurrection clearly relates to believers in Jesus, for the text states that they “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:4)
In the same chapter, John (the writer of Revelation) says “the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years were finished.” (Rev. 20:5) Later in the chapter John says, “when the thousand years are expired...I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...and the dead were judged...” (Rev. 20:7, 12) These verses plainly state that there are two resurrections -- one for believers and one for unbelievers.
The Revelation passages further clarify that these two resurrections are separated by one thousand years; this being the period we commonly call the millennium during which the resurrected believers shall “reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:6)
I once thought that the paperatzi and news reporters who gather around celebreties and politcians and the like were like vultures.
Il will look it up. But I will still not change the word to suit my thinking .
Yes, eagles are first and foremost predators (not national symbols), and they do eat dead and decaying flesh.
The entire "Left Behind" enterpri$e is based upon a perversion of Scripture: "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." - Matt. 24:40, 41. Isn't that the rapture? No, that's a classic twist created by the Rapture Cult.
Jesus says his return will be just like in the days of Noah. He says all of Noah's neighbors were unsaved people who were eating and drinking and they didn't know the flood was coming until it came and "took them all away." So when the flood came, who got "taken away"? The evil ones, who didn't know the judgement was coming: "And knew not until the flood came and took them all away; So shall also the coming of the son of man be." - Matt. 24:39.
Jesus says the one will be taken and the other left. So who got taken? The one who was destroyed, just as it was in the days of Noah. In fact, when the disciples asked where they were taken, Jesus said look for the vultures, for that's where the dead bodies will be: "And they answered and said unto Him, Where Lord? And He said unto them, Wheresoever the body is there will the eagles be gathered together." - Luke 17:37.
Yes, we're all going to be in the tribulation. Jesus said to be like the five virgins that were wise. They were prepared. First, study the issue very carefully to be sure you understand it; then start preparing. Store food, water, and supplies... and most importantly, remember Jesus will never leave you.
Prepare discreetly and don't worry about "Noah's neighbors"... they're all about to be swept away with the Rapture Cult. God said because they love not the truth, he will send them a strong delusion that they should believe the lie. The LIE is the pre-tribulation rapture. Jesus IS coming back, but many will fall away before he gets here: "...he that shall endure until the end, the same shall be saved." - Mark 13:13.
Most pastors will simply continue to defend the Rapture Cult. No one wants to believe they could be this deceived. The truth is, many, many people who profess Jesus are not saved at all... for they refuse to hear his voice. The great "falling away" is already well in progress. Don't trust anyone else to decide for you... get out your Bible and read. Pray as though your life depends on it... because it does. Hurry, for "...the day is far spent"... and "...the night cometh, when no man can work." - Luke 24:29; John 9:4.
The hard truth is the Rapture Cult is filled with dangerous false doctrine that goes well beyond the issue of the timing of Christ's return. To learn more about the truth of Bible prophecy, you need to "study to show thyself approved." You must love the truth -- no matter how uncomfortable the truth is. Find out for yourself -- while you still can.
I won't be with those who fall away, because now I know the truth. The truth is, all who live Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer tribulation. But those who "loved not their lives unto the death" were saved! "And they overcame him by the blood of the lamb, and the word of their testimony... here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." - Rev. 14:12.
I guess we'll see soon enough.
"Il will look it up. But I will still not change the word to suit my thinking ."
And that my dear friend is the #1 problem with a great number of people. Even when faced with the fact that they may be wrong, they (You) are so entrenched with what you believe the truth is, that you will not accept the truth when facing it. You would rather believe what you know then accept that you might be wrong.
Amen my brother....amen!
Please read comment #32.