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Purgatory - 2 Maccabees 12

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Ginger, Apr 16, 2008.

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  1. Purgatory - 2 Maccabees 12

    2 Mac is used to support the Catholic dogma of Purgatory. For those who don't have Maccabees, here is the text:

    39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs. 40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain. 41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. 42 7 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; 44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. 45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. 46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
  2. [FONT=&quot]God killed the people Mach 12 because of idolatry. According to Catholicism, isn't that a mortal sin?

    Doesn't the Catechism say you'll go straight to Hell if you die in mortal sin?

  3. I do not support the use of spurious texts as they add confusion and contradiction to scripture and God never contradicts His Word.
  4. Hi Ginger,

    What you wrote about mortal sin is true. Unrependent mortal sin is more accurate, perhaps. If a person is at death's door and has no opportunity to confess their sins...We leave this to God's mercy. We don't need to know anyone else's fate but our own. Ultimately it's up to God to judge man's repentence.

    In fact, we can never know for certain if a person is in Hell or not. We know God's laws, and we may know the deeds a man is guilty of. But in a matter so serious as eternity-- there's no way we can make judgements on God's mercy or on what happens deep in a man's heart; between him and God alone in the last moments of life.

    Does this answer your question at all?
  5. Even still brother, it is part of the Bible. Not liking it doesn't change the fact.
  6. That's debatable. It's not part of my Bible. I had to go buy it as a separate book. Have many, many more books just like it. Some seem rather scripturally sound and there are no apparent reasons for them not being in all the Bibles (Like Laoticia), others are pure fiction (Stories from the Garden of Eden). The real trouble is, that it's hard to tell which is which at times.

    But, I do agree 100% with that statement.
  7. Catholics consider these extra seven books, Sirach, Tobit, Wisdom, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, and Baruch, to be part of the canon of Scripture.

    To say the text is not valid does not make an impression on Catholics.

    But you are right. It would probably be better to use something from the New Testament which we all acknowledge as valid.

    As moderator could you change the Title to fit whatever Scripture we decide to use? Thanks.
  8. andiclare,

    Could you suggest a verse that you believe is the strongest prove of purgatory from the NT?

  9. That is extremely debatable- I currently use 50 translations and thoe 7 "books" are not included in any of them.
    Adding this corruption is where your doctrine starts really contradicting the Word of God.
  10. So, why do you think that they should not be part of the bible? HOw do you know what is inspired and what is not? Since you believe in Sola Scriptura, then there must be like a list in the bible or something, right? :confused:
  11. What Ginger quoted is not part of MY Bible. It's nowhere between Genesis 1:1 and Revelation 22:21.
  12. On another note : I think it wise not to make a doctrine based on 1 text...

    Our Heavenly Father repeats Himself quite offened when His desire is to get a point across like a parent who repeatedly instructs a child not to cross the street without looking both ways...
  13. Also, we must consider Christ, if our prayers saved those who refused Christ in life, then what is the point of His death and resurrection:confused:

    I have a Bible in storage now perhaps it is Dakes or Drakes that had a list of why Maccabees and other books were not included in the Protestant Bible... Hope someone out there has the list...:)
  14. God does not contradict Himself. Introducing these spurious works interjects contradiction and error. They also interject witchcraft .
    An example of error would be Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in as many different places
    An example of witchcraft would be
    Tobit 6:5-8, If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.

    Not even all of the founders of your church accepted them as cannon:

    "As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine." Jerome
    Jerome's preface to the books of Solomon

    These documants are sadly the origins of many anti-biblical doctrines.

    Both sides have stated their case and we feel the time has come to close this thread.

    We thank all who contributed.
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