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Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by joel, May 30, 2012.

  1. does the Bible teach predestination? I find this subject difficult yet interesting and am not dogmatic either way

    Bible verses that support predestination

    Rom 8:21-30 " For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

    Rom 9:15-16 " For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[a] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."

    Rom 9:21 "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"

    Rom 9:11-13 "(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her,“The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

    but we must compare scripture with scripture to fully understand God's Word

    Bible verses that oppose predestination

    Matt 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

    James 5:14 "Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord."

    Gen 2:17 " but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

    Gen 6:6 "And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart."
  2. One of the most common misconceptions about predestination is the notion that foreknowledge on God's part demands that there was no free will on the subjects part, that is a false assumption.
    God is already well aware of all I will ever do. He has never forced me to do anything, He has held my hand when I asked and left me to muddle along on my own when I did not ask for help. In no way has any aspect of my life been preordained.

    Predestination is most often used as an excuse for bad behavior, both by those who claim to be Christian and those who make no such claim.
  3. very good points. I do in fact lean more towards predestination, Calvinism and tulip, but am open to correction, I want to line up as close as possible with the Word. it seems most like minded believers I know are so dogmatic about it they are hard to deal with. I would Go as far to say that they worship their doctrine more then God. I will patiently wait upon God and continue to study His Word when it comes to doctrinal matters.

    these are scriptures I am currently studying

    • Acts 13:48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; AND AS MANY AS HAD BEEN APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED.
    • John 1:12-13: But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, WHO WERE BORN NOT OF BLOOD, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD.
    • Philippians 1:29: FOR TO YOU IT HAS BEEN GRANTED FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE IN HIM, but also to suffer for his sake.
    • Romans 8:29-30: FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
    • Ephesians 1:5: HE PREDESTINED US to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.
    • Ephesians 1:11 Also WE HAVE OBTAINED AN INHERITANCE, HAVING BEEN PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE who works all things after the counsel of His will.
  4. by the way I'm looking for any good audio series on the subject. i'm having trouble finding any good teachings against predestination or calvinism
  5. I consider any form of catholocism to be total heresy and wouldn't be interested, but thanks
  6. G'day Joel, You might like to added the following discourse to your studies. I think it addresses your/our concerns rather well.
    Eze 33:10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20. Bottom line might be Eze 33:11. really the beginning of the chapter is worth study too, but starting at v10 should help.

    calvin..................(not John:eek:;) )
  7. In my experience, the more rabidly anti-Catholic a person is the less they know about the actual doctrines that Roman Catholics follow. We both serve Jesus, why all the hatred?
  8. thankx calvin not john...i'm all over that study, get back with u soon.

    Glomung NO HATRED in fact much love I am a former catholic, but man +God dosen't = salvation.
    Here are some of the doctrines that are considered unbiblical teachings.
    1. The veneration of angels and dead saints
    2. The Mass
    3. The veneration of Mary and praying to her
    4. The doctine of Purgatory
    5. The transference of the solemnity of the Sabbath to the first day of the week
    6. Latin being the official language of prayer and worship
    7. The establishment of the position of Pope
    8. Worship or veneration of relics, images, statues, or idols
    9. Canonization of dead saints
    10. Celibacy of the clergy (though I understand this may have changed)
    11. The use of the rosary
    12. The sale of Indulgences
    13. Transubstantiation
    14. Confessing of sin to priests and the belief that priests can forgive sin
    15. Adoration of the wafer
    16. The Scapular (though I don't know if this practice continues)
    17. The 7 Sacraments
    18. The declaration that tradition is of equal authority as the Bible
    19. Papal Infallibility
    20. Infant baptism
    Kevin and Major say Amen and like this.
  9. Joel,
    I know the case for the Calvinist view, the Five Point Hyper Calvinist view and that of the Armenianists, all of these fail at some point in the scriptures. I am a Stiff-necked Baptist and normally expected to fall into one of the Calvinist’s camps but after better than twenty years of study I find that my prayerful, Holy Spirit led conclusion finds all of the man created interpretations falling shy of the truth.

    My reply is not for the purpose of swaying your opinion in any direction other than prayerful study of the scriptures as led by the Holy Ghost! With that mouthful spoken let me say that the subject cannot be understood without much and continuous study. You see, God is all knowing (look up omniscience in the Nave's Topical Study Bible) and God is omnipresent (see omnipresence in the same reference) and it is therefore impossible for Father God not to know both the beginning and the end of everything!

    With the aforementioned two qualities of the Father, He is, at this very moment, present here, now, in the past and in the future! That, it seems to me to be the one quality that is overlooked by all three camps but the camp of the Biblicists, where I stand on this issue. There is, I am taught, the Cardinal Rule of Hermeneutics that must never be overlooked or ignored that reads, "No single scripture nor group of scriptures can ever be fully understood without the full light of all other scripture shinning directly on it!"

    You see, Jesus is the author of all scripture. (John 1:1-3) Many have been misled by men that are wolves in sheep's clothing and have been taught that Father God is the God of the Old Testament and Jesus the God of the New. But the John one passage teaches us that this is not true and that Jesus created everything and Mal. 3:6a and other scripture teaches us that God never changes because He, the Triune God is unchanging.

    So it is that Jesus/God has always been in the future, past and the present. And when we consider Predestination in the light of this truth, coupled with the truth that it is the perfect will of God that none should perish but that all should repent and come to salvation it just makes all of the three major positions unacceptable. To put as simply as I can with my simple Finite Mind, God knew before time was because He is, was and will always have been there!

    This is my position and I hope you find it worthy of examination and testing with the scriptures and prayer.
    KingJ likes this.
  10. Moderator's note: This thread is about predestination, not a referendum on Catholicism. Let's keep the focus on the issue at hand.
  11. I think a key thing to remember is what the Scripture says we are predestinated to . . . and that is to be conformed to the image of Christ.

    God does not predestine us for salvation. But those He knew in advance - foreknow - He also limited in advance - predestinated - to be conformed to the image of Jesus.
    KingJ likes this.
  12. Just some applied common sense solves the dilemma for me. So many scriptures clearly state that God is NO respecter of persons. So many scriptures say God is a fair and just judge. So many scriptures say that Jesus was the sacrifice for all of mankind. Scripture also says God does what pleases Him. It please God to impose the limiting factor on Himself of giving mankind free will. It pleases God to do this even though as The Bill correctly said, God knows the beginning and the end. He can't help the fact that He is God. But He can be fair on all mankind and take His ability to control our destinies out of the equation, thereby giving us true free will to accept or reject Him. All God can have for all mankind is hope that they accept Him by accepting Jesus. The invitation to be 'In Christ' is giving to ALL mankind. Otherwise God would not be justified on judgement day for treating people fairly. It pleases God to be unbiased with mankind! This has to sink in when looking at scripture on pre-destination.
    Major likes this.

  13. Allow me to see if I can give you an explination on the verses you used.

    Matt. 7 :7....
    " "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

    This verse present 3 different forms of making our needs known to God, NOT predestination.


    God does not always give that very thing we ask, but when He fails to give that for which we ask, He gives something better. It may not seem that way to us at the time but we must remember Romans 8:28 here.....
    "ALL things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose".

    James 5:14 .......
    "Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord."

    That verse does not oppose predestination either my friend. If we say that it is God's will for every Christian who gets sick to be healed, you must then agree that the logical conclusion of that line of thinking is that all the Christians will never die. The Christian will be healed of every disease which would cause death. May I say in love that that is ridiculous. How many have been healed of Cancer to then die years later of a heart attack????
    This verse is about prayer fore the sick not prestination.

    Gen 2:17 .....
    " but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

    This not about predestination either. It was a TEST! It was not God's original intention for man to die, but man is now put on probation. You see, man has a free will and privilege always creates responsibility. This is an axiomatic statement that is true. This man who is given a free will must be given a test to determine whether he will obay God or not. Death here means seperation and Adam was seperated from God spiritually the moment he ate the fruit.

    Gen 6:6 .......
    "And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart
    The KJV here says............."And it REPENTED the Lord that he had made man on the earth and it grieved him at his heart".

    WHAT repented the Lord???? The corruption of man repented the Lord God.!!!!
    He changed His mind from removing man from the earth. I am one who believes that He probably did just that with a former creation on the earth but do not ask me to prove that...it is just an opinion. Although it grieved God because of man's sin, thank God He did not destroy man.
  14. Hello Joel! Glad to hear from you.......is all well with you?

    May I give you just a couple of points here?

    Predestination never has any refferance with the lost. You will never find it used in connection with them. Predestination actually means that when God saves you, He is going to see you through. When the Lord Jesus started out with 100 sheep, He came home with 100 sheep. He will not lose one single sheep.

    Secondly, consider 10 turtles down at the swamp. You say to them............"I would like to teach you to fly".
    Nine of them say......"No, we are not interested. We like it here and we feel right at home where we are".

    But ONE turtle says ..."YES, I would like to learn to fly".

    THAT IS THE ONE WHICH IS CALLED AND THAT IS THE ONE WHICH IS TAUGHT TO FLY. He will be the one conformed to the image of Christ!

    It has nothing to do with the other nine turtles at all. They are turtles because they are turtles.
    The lost are lost because they want it that way. There is not one single person in this world that is being forced to be lost. They are lost because they have CHOSEN to be lost.

    A wonderful old preacher named Henry Ward Beecher said once time............."the elect are the whosoever wills and the non-elect are the whosoever wont's"
    th1bill likes this.
  15. thanks guys u have some very good ideas but the will of man will fail every time his natural state only allows him to rebell. 1st Samuel 15:3 Romans 8:7 and 1:21-23.

    salvation is the work of the holy spirit by calling to election Romans 9 John 6:37:-44. Regeneration by the holy spirit ezekiel 36;25-26 18:21-31 Phil 1:6. Justification by Christ through the atonement Hebrews 9:22 Leviticus 17:11 and sanctification by the spirit Phil 1:6 Galatians 5:22-27. It secures our salvation and blessings of god Christ said his sheep will not be cast out John 6 and 10 but called back seeking that which is lost.

    It is dependent on God's work proverbs 16;33 Jonah 2:9 Romans 9:21 not what we do our faith and work is dead a byproduct of the natural man which must be repented of when recieving the new nature.

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  16. From the foundation of the world we were predestined to spend eternity with our Heavenly Father. Then sin entered in and that separated us from God, worse still it was our choice, or at least the choice of many, but those who choose to enter in can rest assured of God's loving mercy and all who will confess their sin and repent have the assurance that God ordained we will have fellowship with Him and with one another in Glory.

    To put it into computing terms, predestination is the default position. It is as if we have already said Yes to the Lord and it remains that way until or if we reject Him.
  17. 1an........

    You said:
    To put it into computing terms, predestination is the default position. It is as if we have already said Yes to the Lord and it remains that way until or if we reject Him.

    What do then we do with John 3:18........
    "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God".

    Then what about Ephesians 2:1-3........
    And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    Just asking????
  18. Not a problem Major. We read at creation that God saw everything was good. Nothing separated man from God who spoke and communed with Adam and Eve in the garden. Then disobedience entered in and separated man from God who actually hid from him. Since then humankind has continually rejected the Lord and is condemned already "because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" as verse 18 says. Continuing the computer analogy a virus has entered in and this was accentuated as it says in the same verse by lack of faith in God's Son.

    Not only had a virus entered in but people were refusing to turn to the necessary anti-virus software which is free and is available to everyone here and now.

    In Ephesians 2:3 Paul includes himself as one who was a child of wrath by using the word "we" when he says "WE all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh" but praise God we now had the assurance of sins forgiven which is how it can be for everyone who accepts God's offer of salvation which returns us back to the default position of being in the family of God that was planned from the foundation of the earth and the virus that entered in has been wiped clean by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. Praise God.
  19. Excellant point!

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