Predestination a biblical perspective

[Relentless]

Actually,I'm not how you see it as a done deal when the passage you quoted says one is sealed until the day of redemption. How is it complete if one isn't redeemed yet?

Christians also misunderstand the use of the word "guarantee." In this usage it doesn't mean that something will definitely happen as many suppose. A guarantee is a down payment, a pledge to pay something in full at a later time. If we look at the passage we see that the guarantee is a pledge to redeem the believe on the day of redemption.

I would also submit that there is no dichotomy between the Israel and the church as you suggest. That Jesus words are applicable to the church can be see in His letters to the churches in Revelation, 'to him who overcomes.'

Sealed and guaranteed sure sound like done deals to me. If scripture wanted to make it clearer that salvation is a done deal, I'm not sure what wording they would need to use to convince you. I see no reason to limit the concept of a guarantee, since you describe a down payment as a pledge to pay in full. What is being paid in full at a later time? Not our salvation itself, but our inheritance. What is our inheritance? Rewards for deeds done, immortality, and being in the direct presence of God.

Here's another way to look at it: If indeed we have the Holy Spirit in us, we are being transformed into the likeness of Jesus. Our righteousness is not our own but only found in Jesus. So the only way we could fail to receive our inheritance is if Jesus could do so, and the only way we could not be guaranteed to be already saved is if Jesus is not. We "were bought at a price" and are "not our own".

As for the church separate from Israel, that's a whole other topic. I have some writings that include this, if you're interested:
http://books.fether.net/index.php?theBook=BPFF&theChap=3

 

[Abdicate]

If salvation where obtained over time, then it's by our works and Jesus died for nothing. It really is the only issue. There is 0% works we can do to earn salvation. It is solely 100% Jesus' work. If we believe otherwise then we are not saved.

Ephesians 2:7-9 (KJV)

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.​

 

[CCW95A]

It doesn't work like that. If a person is halfway through their life are they only half alive? Salvation is ultimately complete at the resurrection. Salvation is among other things salvation from death. One isn't saved from death until they are resurrect and can die no more.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Salvation is complete once a man confess Jesus Christ as his Lord. The only thing left is receiving a new resurrected body. Man can live without his body, but the body can not live without his spirit.

 

[Abdicate]

So let me ask this: If you're at work and the bosses call a meeting of everyone in the plant, which is the good news? That you have to work long and hard, or have the day off?

Why do you want to put others or yourself under the law?

Galatians 5:3-6 (KJV)

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.​

 

[CCW95A]

So let me ask this: If you're at work and the bosses call a meeting of everyone in the plant, which is the good news? That you have to work long and hard, or have the day off?

Why do you want to put others or yourself under the law?

Galatians 5:3-6 (KJV)

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.​

There is no doubt it requires "labor" to enter into his rest, so that we can stop from our own works, and let God in us do his works through us. For he who has entered into his rest has ceased from his own works....

I prefer the "day off" as I don't need the money!

 

[CCW95A]

\Salvation is a process because it is spoken of in Scripture in three tenses, past present an future, have been save, are being saved, and shall be saved. That is an ongoing process.

NKJ Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (Eph 2:8 NKJ)
NKJ 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1Co 1:18 NKJ)
NKJ Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. (Mat 24:13 NKJ)

Paul's statement, "us who are being saved" shows that it is a process.

Since the new heart is a metaphor for the inner man and the inner man isn't instantly changed when one believes it would seem that it is a process. People who become Christians don't instantly become mature in the faith that is something that takes time. We can see this in Paul's letter to the Corinthians.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (1Co 3:1 KJV)

Eternal life is not something that is going to be given "someday" to certain people. Those who have confessed Jesus Christ as their Lord already have that eternal life today! As the Apostle John tells us......

1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

All believers who have confessed Jesus Christ as their savior have already overcome this world.

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Once Christ becomes our new heart, which happens instantly after confessing Christ as our Lord, is already "perfect" in us. The only growth a Christian experiences is in our understanding of who we really are by constantly looking into the mirror of God's Words which reflects that Glory in us!

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

When a person looks into a "mirror" whose face do we see? You see yourself! What do we see in our self's? The Glory of God, which is Jesus Christ, who is also known as the "Glory of the Father". Your actions in this life are based strictly on who you see in this mirror.

 

[By Faith]

\Salvation is a process because it is spoken of in Scripture in three tenses, past present an future, have been save, are being saved, and shall be saved. That is an ongoing process.

NKJ Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (Eph 2:8 NKJ)
NKJ 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1Co 1:18 NKJ)
NKJ Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. (Mat 24:13 NKJ)

Paul's statement, "us who are being saved" shows that it is a process.

Since the new heart is a metaphor for the inner man and the inner man isn't instantly changed when one believes it would seem that it is a process. People who become Christians don't instantly become mature in the faith that is something that takes time. We can see this in Paul's letter to the Corinthians.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (1Co 3:1 KJV)

Butch, would you "Define" what you mean. I am not going to try to guess in circles both believing the same thing and thinking we don't but it being a different revelation and angle we are looking at things, defining terms in different ways.

Our redemption draws neigh, Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. I can quote many more.

Without having that new man, new spirit then we have no ability to work on these things.

Gal 4:3 kjva Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

As newly saved we need milk, we are children, things move us that should not. We don't have the anointing, authority, power that a fully mature believer would have.

Still a child though needing milk.

So, are you pointing out this growth process we need to encounter?

Or you saying that if someone makes Jesus Lord and 2 days later they step out in front of a bus and get killed, they still have to go to Hell.

What are you saying exactly.

Be blessed.

 

[calvin]

Or you saying that if someone makes Jesus Lord and 2 days later they step out in front of a bus and get killed, they still have to go to Hell.

Grrrr , red flag waved at bull.
Sorry but Jesus is Lord!
It is a done deal by the Father already.
Nobody, but nobody can make Jesus Lord.
If we can make Jesus lord (of our lives) then He is no Lord really, just something we manufacture.
We all need to recognize that He is Lord and act accordingly.
There.. now I've got that off my chest what I was really wanting to share with you guys.......

Eph 4:11. And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
Eph 4:12. to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13. until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
Eph 4:14. so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
Eph 4:15. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
As I see it, salvation is complete in the sense that once commenced it is unstoppable.
The ongoing process is more one of sanctification, of growing, but 'being saved' is good too.
Some verses really ring the bell for us....for me it is v13.

 

[By Faith]

Grrrr , red flag waved at bull.
Sorry but Jesus is Lord!
It is a done deal by the Father already.
Nobody, but nobody can make Jesus Lord.
If we can make Jesus lord (of our lives) then He is no Lord really, just something we manufacture.
We all need to recognize that He is Lord and act accordingly.
There.. now I've got that off my chest what I was really wanting to share with you guys.......

Eph 4:11. And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
Eph 4:12. to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13. until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
Eph 4:14. so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
Eph 4:15. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
As I see it, salvation is complete in the sense that once commenced it is unstoppable.
The ongoing process is more one of sanctification, of growing, but 'being saved' is good too.
Some verses really ring the bell for us....for me it is v13.

Jesus is Lord no matter who calls him Lord or not.

Many call him Lord but don't live their life as He is Lord.

So............ we must MAKE (Jesus Lord of our lives) otherwise He is not Lord to us though we say He is.

Jesus being Lord, us saying He is Lord, is not meaning He is Lord over anything concerning us.

Joh 14:21 kjva He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Luk 14:33 kjva So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

So Calvin, while your dodging that red bull and those flags are in your face waving.

Anwser this............

What if things are more imporant in your life than what the Lord want?

Does that mean He is still your Lord, if other things are more important?

You can't have two Lord's for you will love one and hate the other (Masters)

 

[CCW95A]

Grrrr , red flag waved at bull.
Sorry but Jesus is Lord!
It is a done deal by the Father already.
Nobody, but nobody can make Jesus Lord.
If we can make Jesus lord (of our lives) then He is no Lord really, just something we manufacture.
We all need to recognize that He is Lord and act accordingly.
There.. now I've got that off my chest what I was really wanting to share with you guys.......

Eph 4:11. And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
Eph 4:12. to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13. until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
Eph 4:14. so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
Eph 4:15. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
As I see it, salvation is complete in the sense that once commenced it is unstoppable.
The ongoing process is more one of sanctification, of growing, but 'being saved' is good too.
Some verses really ring the bell for us....for me it is v13.

Calvin, Once Jesus comes into someones life, is that Life perfect, or does Jesus need to grow in us? In Jesus's humanity was God the Father who dwelt in him have to grow? Is God the same yesterday, today, and for ever? I do not think that Christ in us ever grows as he is God and he is never evolving or learning anything new.
What I see is that Christ in us is always perfect in every way, and that our growing process is that in my understanding of who this person is in me. Exactly how Jesus grew in wisdom in his human nature, and not in his divine nature as he already knew all things.

 

[Butch5]

Sealed and guaranteed sure sound like done deals to me. If scripture wanted to make it clearer that salvation is a done deal, I'm not sure what wording they would need to use to convince you. I see no reason to limit the concept of a guarantee, since you describe a down payment as a pledge to pay in full. What is being paid in full at a later time? Not our salvation itself, but our inheritance. What is our inheritance? Rewards for deeds done, immortality, and being in the direct presence of God.

Here's another way to look at it: If indeed we have the Holy Spirit in us, we are being transformed into the likeness of Jesus. Our righteousness is not our own but only found in Jesus. So the only way we could fail to receive our inheritance is if Jesus could do so, and the only way we could not be guaranteed to be already saved is if Jesus is not. We "were bought at a price" and are "not our own".

As for the church separate from Israel, that's a whole other topic. I have some writings that include this, if you're interested:
http://books.fether.net/index.php?theBook=BPFF&theChap=3

That's interesting since Jesus told the apostles unless their righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees they would not see the kingdom. He didn't say anything about them having His. However, going back to the seal and guarantee, what the English word encompasses doesn't matter if the Greek word doesn't. The Greek word means a down payment, it doesn't mean that something is certain to happen. While technically, guarantee is a correct translation translators shouldn't use it because that isn't the way the word is typically understood in modern English. Regarding the seal, how people use this as a guarantee of salvation is puzzling. The purpose of a seal is to verify the contents of something and is put in place with the expectation that the seal will be broken. When you buy milk it is sealed. Surely you don't look at the seal conclude that it cannot be broken and throw away the milk. On the contrary, you would remove the seal. When a king would send a command to one of this soldiers he would put a seal on the order that way when the soldier received the command the soldier would know if the command had been tampered with. If the seal was in tact the soldier knew that no one had tampered with the order. However, when the king placed his seal on the command he had every expectation that the one receiving the command would break the seal.

 

[Butch5]

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Salvation is complete once a man confess Jesus Christ as his Lord. The only thing left is receiving a new resurrected body. Man can live without his body, but the body can not live without his spirit.

This doesn't say anything about salvation being complete. It doesn't even mention salvation.

 

[Relentless]

That's interesting since Jesus told the apostles unless their righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees they would not see the kingdom. He didn't say anything about them having His. However, going back to the seal and guarantee, what the English word encompasses doesn't matter if the Greek word doesn't. The Greek word means a down payment, it doesn't mean that something is certain to happen. While technically, guarantee is a correct translation translators shouldn't use it because that isn't the way the word is typically understood in modern English. Regarding the seal, how people use this as a guarantee of salvation is puzzling. The purpose of a seal is to verify the contents of something and is put in place with the expectation that the seal will be broken. When you buy milk it is sealed. Surely you don't look at the seal conclude that it cannot be broken and throw away the milk. On the contrary, you would remove the seal. When a king would send a command to one of this soldiers he would put a seal on the order that way when the soldier received the command the soldier would know if the command had been tampered with. If the seal was in tact the soldier knew that no one had tampered with the order. However, when the king placed his seal on the command he had every expectation that the one receiving the command would break the seal.

This incident preceded the cross. The disciples knew nothing of being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who did not come upon all believers until Pentecost.

The Greek word does mean a down payment; I've said this more than once. It is coupled with "guarantee". If a guarantee isn't guaranteed, then words have no meanings. We should indeed use that word, since the Greek word means exactly what the English word means. As for the seal, it means something that can only be broken by the one with authority to do so, who in this case is God.

Scripture says that the Holy Spirit is the down payment guaranteeing our inheritance; that's the whole description. We are sealed for the day of redemption. We are not cartons of milk to be opened by just anyone at any time.

 

[Butch5]

Eternal life is not something that is going to be given "someday" to certain people. Those who have confessed Jesus Christ as their Lord already have that eternal life today! As the Apostle John tells us......

1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

All believers who have confessed Jesus Christ as their savior have already overcome this world.

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Once Christ becomes our new heart, which happens instantly after confessing Christ as our Lord, is already "perfect" in us. The only growth a Christian experiences is in our understanding of who we really are by constantly looking into the mirror of God's Words which reflects that Glory in us!

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

When a person looks into a "mirror" whose face do we see? You see yourself! What do we see in our self's? The Glory of God, which is Jesus Christ, who is also known as the "Glory of the Father". Your actions in this life are based strictly on who you see in this mirror.

You've only got half of it here. Here's the other half.

29 So Jesus answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife1 or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's,
30 "who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time-- houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions-- and in the age to come, eternal life. (Mar 10:29-30 NKJ)

So, in order to come to the truth of Scripture we have to reconcile all of these passages. There's a problem with the way you're understanding John and that is that believers die. The definition of eternal life is life that doesn't end. Yet we see believers live do end, thus they cannot have eternal life, at least no prior to death. So, how does one reconcile all of this?

 

[Butch5]

Butch, would you "Define" what you mean. I am not going to try to guess in circles both believing the same thing and thinking we don't but it being a different revelation and angle we are looking at things, defining terms in different ways.

Our redemption draws neigh, Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. I can quote many more.

Without having that new man, new spirit then we have no ability to work on these things.

Gal 4:3 kjva Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

As newly saved we need milk, we are children, things move us that should not. We don't have the anointing, authority, power that a fully mature believer would have.

Still a child though needing milk.

So, are you pointing out this growth process we need to encounter?


Or you saying that if someone makes Jesus Lord and 2 days later they step out in front of a bus and get killed, they still have to go to Hell.

What are you saying exactly.

Be blessed.

I appreciate that you want to define terms rather than assuming what I might be saying. What I'm saying is that salvation is an ongoing relationship that takes place from the time one makes an initial contract with the Lord until the resurrection. During this relationship one can break the contract and not end up in the kingdom. Many Christians seem to want to avoid the engagement and go straight to the wedding, however, it doesn't work like that. Once one enters into a contract with the Lord they are in the engagement period until such time that the Lord chooses to have the wedding. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb hasn't occurred yet. The apostle Paul said.

2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (2Co 11:2 NKJ)

Paul told the Corinthians that he had betrothed them, that he may present them to Christ. Since the Marriage Supper hasn't taken place yet they are still betrothed. Likewise the rest of the believers would also be waiting. So once again we see a process that is not complete.

 

[CCW95A]

That's interesting since Jesus told the apostles unless their righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees they would not see the kingdom. He didn't say anything about them having His. However, going back to the seal and guarantee, what the English word encompasses doesn't matter if the Greek word doesn't. The Greek word means a down payment, it doesn't mean that something is certain to happen. While technically, guarantee is a correct translation translators shouldn't use it because that isn't the way the word is typically understood in modern English. Regarding the seal, how people use this as a guarantee of salvation is puzzling. The purpose of a seal is to verify the contents of something and is put in place with the expectation that the seal will be broken. When you buy milk it is sealed. Surely you don't look at the seal conclude that it cannot be broken and throw away the milk. On the contrary, you would remove the seal. When a king would send a command to one of this soldiers he would put a seal on the order that way when the soldier received the command the soldier would know if the command had been tampered with. If the seal was in tact the soldier knew that no one had tampered with the order. However, when the king placed his seal on the command he had every expectation that the one receiving the command would break the seal.

Butch5, This must be the scripture you are referring to....

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

In Jewish culture it was customary that the Father would find a "bride" for his son. Once a bride was found, the Father had to pay a sum of money which sealed this marriage. Once this price had been paid, the bride was called "the purchased possession". God the Father has already paid the price for this union with the blood of his Son Jesus Chrsit. Even though the marriage ceremony had not yet taken place their marriage was legally binding. In other words they are married. In verse 14 the word "earnest" means...

Earnest money, a pledge, something which stands for part of the price and paid beforehand to confirm the transaction.

Marriage was conducted as a "transaction" and a receipt is given to us as the pledge from God the Father. What is this pledge, or guarantee? It is the Holy Spirit!!! In modern Greek the word for "pledge" is "arrabonna". This word is translated, "engagement ring"
Our engagement ring has been given to us which is the Holy Spirit proofing we are already married, and belong to him!!

 

[Butch5]

This incident preceded the cross. The disciples knew nothing of being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who did not come upon all believers until Pentecost.

The Greek word does mean a down payment; I've said this more than once. It is coupled with "guarantee". If a guarantee isn't guaranteed, then words have no meanings. We should indeed use that word, since the Greek word means exactly what the English word means. As for the seal, it means something that can only be broken by the one with authority to do so, who in this case is God.

Scripture says that the Holy Spirit is the down payment guaranteeing our inheritance; that's the whole description. We are sealed for the day of redemption. We are not cartons of milk to be opened by just anyone at any time.

It doesn't matter when it happened. Jesus didn't say this only applies until the cross. Paul argues that one is justified by faith and not the works of the Law of Moses in Romans 3 and 4. Who's faith is countedto Abraham as righteousness, Abraham's or Jesus'? It's Abraham's faith that is attributed to him as righteousness.

The Greek word "arrhabon" doesn't mean that something is certain to happen, it means an earnest or down payment. A down payment if money that is given with the pledge to pay in full later. How is that something that is a done deal? The passage is says 'until the day of redemption,' if one isn't yet redeemed how is salvation a done deal? That would be like me putting a down payment on a house and then telling the owner, ok, it's done I'm moving in. It's not going to happen.

 

[CCW95A]

You've only got half of it here. Here's the other half.

29 So Jesus answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife1 or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's,
30 "who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time-- houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions-- and in the age to come, eternal life. (Mar 10:29-30 NKJ)

So, in order to come to the truth of Scripture we have to reconcile all of these passages. There's a problem with the way you're understanding John and that is that believers die. The definition of eternal life is life that doesn't end. Yet we see believers live do end, thus they cannot have eternal life, at least no prior to death. So, how does one reconcile all of this?

Remember Jesus walked under the Old Testament. Many things could not be given while Jesus was still alive. It was not until Jesus died,was buried, and rise again from the dead, and that the Holy Spirit would be given that is part of giving a person eternal life.

Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[Butch5]

Butch5, This must be the scripture you are referring to....

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

In Jewish culture it was customary that the Father would find a "bride" for his son. Once a bride was found, the Father had to pay a sum of money which sealed this marriage. Once this price had been paid, the bride was called "the purchased possession". God the Father has already paid the price for this union with the blood of his Son Jesus Chrsit. Even though the marriage ceremony had not yet taken place their marriage was legally binding. In other words they are married. In verse 14 the word "earnest" means...

Earnest money, a pledge, something which stands for part of the price and paid beforehand to confirm the transaction.

Marriage was conducted as a "transaction" and a receipt is given to us as the pledge from God the Father. What is this pledge, or guarantee? It is the Holy Spirit!!! In modern Greek the word for "pledge" is "arrabonna". This word is translated, "engagement ring"
Our engagement ring has been given to us which is the Holy Spirit proofing we are already married, and belong to him!!

Look at what you're saying. Who gives an engagement ring at a marriage ceremony? Did you notice what Paul said to the Corinthians? He said that I may present you to Christ. He didn't say that I have presented you to Christ. May present you is future tense, have betrothed is past tense. The Corinthians had already received the Holy Spirit so grammatically, the marriage hadn't taken place yet.

 

[Butch5]

Remember Jesus walked under the Old Testament. Many things could not be given while Jesus was still alive. It was not until Jesus died,was buried, and rise again from the dead, and that the Holy Spirit would be given that is part of giving a person eternal life.

Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

That's irrelevant, He said in the age to come. He also said,

34 And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage.
35 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
(Luk 20:34-36 NKJ)

Who is it that can die no more? Did He say believers can die no more? No, He said, being sons of the resurrection they die no more.