Predestination a biblical perspective
- Thread starter GBzone
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MY comment would of be that we are filled with the Holy Spirit the moment we ask Christ to be our Saviour and save us from our sin.
GBzone, Did we at some point in time be placed in Adam so that we were included as sinners, or were we already in him as his seed at the time of his disobedience?
We had to have been in Adam in the garden when he fell. If this is true, then it would also have to be true when Jesus came to earth as the last Adam bearing in himself his seed which is his Church.
Good to know....thanks.
I am taking a time out also. The grandkids are here to visit for the day and tomorrow is Church day!
Blessings to all of you !
Again, your observation is correct, but I don't think your conclusion is valid. Surely all, both Jew and Gentile need to be born again.
If I were speaking to a certain ethnic group when I said "lemons are sour" that would not mean that only that ethnic group would find lemons sour.
But this is getting way off topic, unless lemons were predestined to be sour.
Not at all. The process of being saved is the same for all. However, that process is not called being born again. Jesus using the phrase "Born again" was speaking to a Jew who believed that he would gain entrance to the kingdom through his physical birth as the seen of Abraham. Jesus tells him this isn't so and uses the birth metaphor you must be born again. In other words, your first birth, in the flesh as the seed of Abraham is not sufficient.
An earthly kingdom and a heavenly kingdom? Where do you see that?
What would you call the "process of salvation"? Can someone slowly receive a new heart.
I read through all the post. Trying to figure out what the issue is.
Predestination the biblical view. What does that have to do with Adam, and how is Adam's seed have anything to do with anything?
We are sinners being Adam's seed?
It says through one mans Sin, death reigned because of the sin, not because of being a seed from Adam.
I also don't see any indication Adam was asleep or away from Eve. Adam did not stop Eve, Adam ate the fruit knowing full well what he was doing. Not sure how we can read much more into that.
I am not sure how the thread showed "Biblical" predestination as it was presented far different than what a Calvinist would, so a bit of a new concept on the subject.
Predestination the biblical view. What does that have to do with Adam, and how is Adam's seed have anything to do with anything?
We are sinners being Adam's seed?
It says through one mans Sin, death reigned because of the sin, not because of being a seed from Adam.
I also don't see any indication Adam was asleep or away from Eve. Adam did not stop Eve, Adam ate the fruit knowing full well what he was doing. Not sure how we can read much more into that.
I am not sure how the thread showed "Biblical" predestination as it was presented far different than what a Calvinist would, so a bit of a new concept on the subject.
I would call it salvation. To answer your question, the new heart is a metaphor so I would submit that yes one can receive it over time
We would need something called a scripture to believe this. Since there are none, then we don't believe anything like that.
The heart of man is refered to the inner-man or spirit of a man. Jesus said you must be born of spirit and all things become new.
Things don't become new over time and there is no greater "Savlation" over time unless we take the definition of Salvation and say we can be physically healed over time.
So we just don't slowly recieve a new spirit, or slowly get saved (As in eternal life)
We can be transformed by the renewing of our mind though (soul) and we can recieve with meekness the engrafted Word which is able to save our souls (Mind) We can get more in tune with our born again spirit and the Holy Spirit, not being as flesh ruled but (spirit) Spirit ruled.
Birth happens at a moment in time; growth happens over a lifetime.
What happens if you only make it half way to salvation? Are you only half saved?
\Salvation is a process because it is spoken of in Scripture in three tenses, past present an future, have been save, are being saved, and shall be saved. That is an ongoing process.
NKJ Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (Eph 2:8 NKJ)
NKJ 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1Co 1:18 NKJ)
NKJ Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. (Mat 24:13 NKJ)
Paul's statement, "us who are being saved" shows that it is a process.
Since the new heart is a metaphor for the inner man and the inner man isn't instantly changed when one believes it would seem that it is a process. People who become Christians don't instantly become mature in the faith that is something that takes time. We can see this in Paul's letter to the Corinthians.
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (1Co 3:1 KJV)
It doesn't work like that. If a person is halfway through their life are they only half alive? Salvation is ultimately complete at the resurrection. Salvation is among other things salvation from death. One isn't saved from death until they are resurrect and can die no more.
I agree, my point, however, was that the "born again" metaphor was spoken to Nicodemus a Jew who believed that his physical birth as the seed of Abraham would give him access to the kingdom.
We also have this:
These all speak of salvation as a finished state sealed by the Holy Spirit, who serves as a guarantee of our future inheritance. So what do we do with 1 Cor. 1:18 and Mat. 24:13?
We can eliminate Mat. 24:13 by noting that this all pertains to Israel rather than the church, in the Day of the Lord. As for 1 Cor. 1:18, it refers to "we" as the group being saved as opposed to the group not being saved. That is, those who accept the message of the cross view it as a demonstration of the power of God, while those who reject it view it as foolishness. This isn't about some individual process of salvation, but about the attitudes of people toward the Gospel.
Actually,I'm not how you see it as a done deal when the passage you quoted says one is sealed until the day of redemption. How is it complete if one isn't redeemed yet?
Christians also misunderstand the use of the word "guarantee." In this usage it doesn't mean that something will definitely happen as many suppose. A guarantee is a down payment, a pledge to pay something in full at a later time. If we look at the passage we see that the guarantee is a pledge to redeem the believe on the day of redemption.
I would also submit that there is no dichotomy between the Israel and the church as you suggest. That Jesus words are applicable to the church can be see in His letters to the churches in Revelation, 'to him who overcomes.'
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