Predestination a biblical perspective

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I make no such claim. Nor am I ifallible as some foolishly c

Learning Greek and Hebrew can be profitable but as long as it is remembered that Hebrew was of no help to Saul of Tarsus or the religionsists who opposed Christ and Hebrew was their mother tounge.
and the snare is that you will lean more upon your understanding of Hebrew or Greek than trust in the lord who will and does lead you into all truth .

As for predestination . It cannot be denied as it si taught in scripture.
The example and means by which a foundational understanding can be obtained by the law of the seed .has not been either proved to be wrong by any here .
I never said a son inherits the sin of his father .I said in effect they inherit the consequences .
Adam was blessed in the garden after he had sinned his sons were born outside the blessing and under the curse.
How can that be disputed?
and if the scripture says by one mans disobedience all men die . How then do you dispute that?
and if by one mans obedience how then do you dispute that?
Thus by one a man inherits corruption and death.
and b y the other he inherits righteousness and eternal life
if you deny the one you cannot have the other .

in Christ
Gerald
You did in fact say that the original languages were misleading me.

As for Saul of Tarsus, here again you're trying to mix very different issues and jumble them all together. This is just ridiculous and I won't waste any more time trying to explain it. Also, for you to state that somehow this is a "snare" that will cause me to "lean more upon your understanding of Hebrew or Greek than trust in the lord" is a denial of scripture's many injunctions for people to study, reason, and search. Education in the original Biblical languages is only feared by those who prefer ignorance.

And since you keep denying what you have clearly said, I will no longer respond to you. Good day.
 
While the process is the same for both, the phrase is only used of the Jews. The Jews believed that their physical birth gained them entrance into the kingdom

That is because they will in the end inherit a kingdom after they as a nation have been saved .In a day .
For there is an earthly kingdom of God and a heavenly kingdom of God .
But they will not until they are saved.

In Christ
gerald
 
You did in fact say that the original languages were misleading me.

As for Saul of Tarsus, here again you're trying to mix very different issues and jumble them all together. This is just ridiculous and I won't waste any more time trying to explain it. Also, for you to state that somehow this is a "snare" that will cause me to "lean more upon your understanding of Hebrew or Greek than trust in the lord" is a denial of scripture's many injunctions for people to study, reason, and search. Education in the original Biblical languages is only feared by those who prefer ignorance.

And since you keep denying what you have clearly said, I will no longer respond to you. Good day.

Good bye

In Christ
gerald
 
Your observation is correct, but I don't think your conclusion is valid. Surely all, both Jew and Gentile need to be born again.
Hi sorry I would not agree with that conclusion either but then I made no such conclusion nor think that that statement is true .
 
Traditional way?
I have never heard it yet .
and no one has here either .
and to reduce it to "my way" is somewhat unreasonable.

In Christ
Gerald
Please give credit where credit is due. You have really referred to my masterly summation of the issue, not relentless'.
 
Speaking of things that are not arguments...

Trying to apply a parable about the general condition of sin in the world to a SPECIFIC INCIDENT to claim that Adam HAD to be asleep is... to put it politely... a really wild and unstable interpretive method. We might as well say that Aaron was asleep when the people of Israel made the golden calf. In fact, we could use the "asleep" excuse for a whole lot of things. Maybe the Pharisees were asleep too. And Cain, and Ham, and...

Was not Jonah asleep in the boat when he should have been awake?
Was not Elijah(?) asleep when he should have been awake and told to eat all the food ?
Was not the disciples asleep in the garden when they should have been awake?
Does not that parable say "while men slept"? when clearly they should have been awake?
Does not God by the prophets say "Awake! though that sleepeth"?
Indeed a simple word search of scripture as to "awake" will show to many to mention!
I doubt that there is not a Christian alive or dead who has not experienced the reality of being able to stay awake for his own pleasure but take the Bible in his hand to read or prepare to pray and finds his eyelids heavy and an almost overwelming desire to sleep!
What do you think Lot was ? Alive to the hour in which he lived? awake to the danger he was in?
and what of the 10 virgins ?
Did they not all fall asleep?
So Im afraid your perception of how many people were asleep or not is denied by scripture .

in Christ
gerald
 
Why I said 'my way' is because I believe my view of predestination significantly differs from the majority of views that I have read.
Is it 'unreasonable' that I be an independent thinker?
 
Do you really think that it is every one else who does not know the truth and only YOU that does????

God's Word says that "Pride goeth before a fall".
Strangely enough I simply gave an exposition as to lay a foundation for a biblical understanding of predestination.
That as far as I can see has not been proven by any biblical argument to be wrong .
By some comments here it is clear that some do not know the truth of it nor have any grasp of the subject . For them then I had hoped what I had w ritten would help .
To those who you say do know the truth and have a good grasp of it ,then it can or could be more arrows to their bow.
Why then the offence ?
In Christ
gerald
 
Familiarity with the original languages removes a layer of possible misunderstanding; nobody claims it makes us "automatically understand the scripture". When you said "Im afraid your Greek or Hebrew mislead you ", you're saying that it's actually a hindrance, which of course I dispute. Study of these languages does not lead anyone astray, as you claimed.

I do not consider the KJV the most accurate translation. But a lot of people who do, seem to think it makes them "automatically understand the scripture", so that charge goes both ways.

Adam, while awake, received the fruit offered by Eve, in spite of the fact that he had listened to her voice as she was tempted. Both of them ate. Both of them sinned. But only Adam blamed God. That's what the passage tells us.

And none of this pertains to the topic of predestination. Several references were already given showing that children do not inherit the sins of their fathers. And as I also said, there is no point in discussing this if you believe in predestination to salvation.
Actually Adam blamed God and Eve blamed the serpent . The serpent said nothing nor was given leave to speak .
But God blamed Adam and then Blamed Eve and blamed the serpent also .
and to Adam and Eve he judged but with that judgement showed and gave mercy .
To the serpent he simply cursed and gave him nothing but the dust as his inheritance .
You need to read the passage again.

in Christ
gerald
 
Speaking of things that are not arguments...

Trying to apply a parable about the general condition of sin in the world to a SPECIFIC INCIDENT to claim that Adam HAD to be asleep is... to put it politely... a really wild and unstable interpretive method. We might as well say that Aaron was asleep when the people of Israel made the golden calf. In fact, we could use the "asleep" excuse for a whole lot of things. Maybe the Pharisees were asleep too. And Cain, and Ham, and...

I did not sat "he HAD to be asleep" I simply said it was not unreasonable to think that he was either spiritually or physically .
You simply denied it and said impossible ! to put it mildly .
Yet by the parable and many other accounts of men being asleep when they should have been awake in scriptures. It is not "a really wild and unstable(!)" conclusion and you will have to do far better than you have so far to prove I am wrong .and you are right .

in Christ
gerald
 
That every seed brings forth fruit "after its own kind "
A tomato seed will not bring forth apples .It is pre DESTINED to bring forth tomatoes and nothing else .
In an effort to get back on track, yes your example is Biblically based, and I understand where you are wanting to take this...(I think).
It seems to me though that the seed thing is the outcome of predestination rather than predestination itself.
Or to put it another way, the seed produces after its kind because it was predestined that seeds would do so.
The fact that some seeds fail, (not referring to the parable) tends to suggest that there was a general predestination for them to reproduce, but not an individual predestination for each and every seed throughout creation history.

That is why on the human level, there is predestination but it works in with free will, not despite it.
 
In an effort to get back on track, yes your example is Biblically based, and I understand where you are wanting to take this...(I think).
It seems to me though that the seed thing is the outcome of predestination rather than predestination itself.
Or to put it another way, the seed produces after its kind because it was predestined that seeds would do so.
The fact that some seeds fail, (not referring to the parable) tends to suggest that there was a general predestination for them to reproduce, but not an individual predestination for each and every seed throughout creation history.

That is why on the human level, there is predestination but it works in with free will, not despite it.

Well thank you for a reasonable and thought full answer that at least helps me to understand your thinking as well as enables me to answer your post in a more cohesive way .
The use of the seed was simply using the natural truth to convey a spiritual one .This the Lord has done through out scripture . and why not? For not only did He create all things seen and invisible . But he "upholds all things by the word of His power"
In my view and with an occasional eye to see them .All of creation has a message written in it .
This might seem pernickety it is not meant to be .
But seeds are predestined to bring forth fruit after their own kind because God in His wisdom made it so.
But considering that "seed/s" are mentioned a LOT! in those first few chapters . It is not unreasonable therefore to use the seed law if you will as a foundational thought for understanding predestination in ist spiritual application .
Expecially when you consider that parables of the kingdom of God that start with a sower who went to sow.
That Jesus speaking of himself said "unless a seed fall into the ground and die it abideth alone ....."
and indeed" if ye be Christs then are ye Abrahams seed" and so on too many to mention here.
Notwithstanding " that some seeds fail" It is clear that God holds that both the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman will both bring forth fruit after their own kind and that the seed of the tares sown and the good seed will grow until their appointed time .
So the fact that some seeds 'fail' does not undermine either the principle or the fact of the fruit that follows.
To that end then is it not "by their fruits shall ye know them"?
and that fruit is determined by the seed that is sown .

Not sure how long |I will be able to reply as it looks like the website wants to kick me off.
in Christ
gerald
 
Maybe we should remember that "sin" does not become sin when you do something wrong, sin happens when we first think it!!!
Lucifer sinned not when he actually tried to ascend above the clouds of God, but when he first thought about doing so! For he had said in his heart, "I will ascend my throne above the stars of God....."

The actions part is only the results of abiding sin not the cause of it. Being in sin causes one to be separated from God, and in darkness. The Lord promises that "he will not allow us to be "tempted" above what we are able, but will make a way to escape". If one is out of fellowship with God because of sin, how can one find the way to escape? Where was God when Adam and Eve were being tempted? Right there watching the whole event take place!
 
Well thank you for a reasonable and thought full answer that at least helps me to understand your thinking as well as enables me to answer your post in a more cohesive way .
The use of the seed was simply using the natural truth to convey a spiritual one .This the Lord has done through out scripture . and why not? For not only did He create all things seen and invisible . But he "upholds all things by the word of His power"
In my view and with an occasional eye to see them .All of creation has a message written in it .
This might seem pernickety it is not meant to be .
But seeds are predestined to bring forth fruit after their own kind because God in His wisdom made it so.
But considering that "seed/s" are mentioned a LOT! in those first few chapters . It is not unreasonable therefore to use the seed law if you will as a foundational thought for understanding predestination in ist spiritual application .
Expecially when you consider that parables of the kingdom of God that start with a sower who went to sow.
That Jesus speaking of himself said "unless a seed fall into the ground and die it abideth alone ....."
and indeed" if ye be Christs then are ye Abrahams seed" and so on too many to mention here.
Notwithstanding " that some seeds fail" It is clear that God holds that both the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman will both bring forth fruit after their own kind and that the seed of the tares sown and the good seed will grow until their appointed time .
So the fact that some seeds 'fail' does not undermine either the principle or the fact of the fruit that follows.
To that end then is it not "by their fruits shall ye know them"?
and that fruit is determined by the seed that is sown .

Not sure how long |I will be able to reply as it looks like the website wants to kick me off.
in Christ
gerald

There is no doubt that because of one mans disobedience many where made sinners. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
All of humanity was in Adam at the time of his disobedience, which is why we are all sinners. The question now has to be raised how, and when did we the Church get placed in Christ?
 
Well thank you for a reasonable and thought full answer that at least helps me to understand your thinking as well as enables me to answer your post in a more cohesive way .
The use of the seed was simply using the natural truth to convey a spiritual one .This the Lord has done through out scripture . and why not? For not only did He create all things seen and invisible . But he "upholds all things by the word of His power"
In my view and with an occasional eye to see them .All of creation has a message written in it .
This might seem pernickety it is not meant to be .
But seeds are predestined to bring forth fruit after their own kind because God in His wisdom made it so.
But considering that "seed/s" are mentioned a LOT! in those first few chapters . It is not unreasonable therefore to use the seed law if you will as a foundational thought for understanding predestination in ist spiritual application .
Expecially when you consider that parables of the kingdom of God that start with a sower who went to sow.
That Jesus speaking of himself said "unless a seed fall into the ground and die it abideth alone ....."
and indeed" if ye be Christs then are ye Abrahams seed" and so on too many to mention here.
Notwithstanding " that some seeds fail" It is clear that God holds that both the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman will both bring forth fruit after their own kind and that the seed of the tares sown and the good seed will grow until their appointed time .
So the fact that some seeds 'fail' does not undermine either the principle or the fact of the fruit that follows.
To that end then is it not "by their fruits shall ye know them"?
and that fruit is determined by the seed that is sown .

Not sure how long |I will be able to reply as it looks like the website wants to kick me off.
in Christ
gerald

Interesting that Jesus was a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief....

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Psa 126:5 They that sow in tears shall reap in joy.
Psa 126:6 He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him.

I believe that when Jesus came to earth, he was bearing with in himself "precious seed" which was us his Church. Everything he did is now accounted to us as if we did it. In exactly the same way we became sinners in Adam, we became righteous in Christ the last Adam!
 
Maybe we should remember that "sin" does not become sin when you do something wrong, sin happens when we first think it!!!
Lucifer sinned not when he actually tried to ascend above the clouds of God, but when he first thought about doing so! For he had said in his heart, "I will ascend my throne above the stars of God....."

The actions part is only the results of abiding sin not the cause of it. Being in sin causes one to be separated from God, and in darkness. The Lord promises that "he will not allow us to be "tempted" above what we are able, but will make a way to escape". If one is out of fellowship with God because of sin, how can one find the way to escape? Where was God when Adam and Eve were being tempted? Right there watching the whole event take place!
You cant stop a bird sitting on your head but you can stop it building a nest there.

Lucifers went wrong when the time came when "the truth was not found in him " From that it all went wrong .
Eve rejected the truth and believed the lie and once you believe the lie you become blind to the truth .

From the moment that Adam and Eve fell their perception was 'blind' and their reasoned darkened .
For afterwards when they covered themselves with fig leaves in THIER eyes it did indeed cover their fig leaves .
But in Gods eyes it clearly did not .
What is 'good' in mans eyes is invariably evil in Gods .
and the awful refrain of the Old testament and in particular the book of kings and Chronicals is that "they did evil in the sight of the Lord "
The generation of Noah perished because their hearts were towards evil continually .
and every one was doing what was right in their own eyes .

in Christ
gerald
 
Interesting that Jesus was a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief....

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Psa 126:5 They that sow in tears shall reap in joy.
Psa 126:6 He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him.

I believe that when Jesus came to earth, he was bearing with in himself "precious seed" which was us his Church. Everything he did is now accounted to us as if we did it. In exactly the same way we became sinners in Adam, we became righteous in Christ the last Adam!
It is also interesting to note that it is written "He IS despised and rejected of men ......"
He was then He is still now . and it is by the grace of God that our eyes were opened to see Him .

in Christ
gerald
 
There is no doubt that because of one mans disobedience many where made sinners. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
All of humanity was in Adam at the time of his disobedience, which is why we are all sinners. The question now has to be raised how, and when did we the Church get placed in Christ?
Actually its how we as individuals were placed in the church which is His body.
That comes when we were BORNagain and baptised in the Spirit of God .
The church was BORN on the day of Pentecost .
and every one who has since believed is baptised in the Spirit into THE church .
It is a once and permanent thing never to be repeated .
After that we need to be FILLED with the Spirit of God and continually so.
To live the life we have been given.

in Christ
gerald
 
In an effort to get back on track, yes your example is Biblically based, and I understand where you are wanting to take this...(I think).
It seems to me though that the seed thing is the outcome of predestination rather than predestination itself.
Or to put it another way, the seed produces after its kind because it was predestined that seeds would do so.
The fact that some seeds fail, (not referring to the parable) tends to suggest that there was a general predestination for them to reproduce, but not an individual predestination for each and every seed throughout creation history.

That is why on the human level, there is predestination but it works in with free will, not despite it.

There it is! Well said calvin!
 
I make no such claim. Nor am I ifallible as some foolishly c

Learning Greek and Hebrew can be profitable but as long as it is remembered that Hebrew was of no help to Saul of Tarsus or the religionsists who opposed Christ and Hebrew was their mother tounge.
and the snare is that you will lean more upon your understanding of Hebrew or Greek than trust in the lord who will and does lead you into all truth .

As for predestination . It cannot be denied as it si taught in scripture.
The example and means by which a foundational understanding can be obtained by the law of the seed .has not been either proved to be wrong by any here .
I never said a son inherits the sin of his father .I said in effect they inherit the consequences .
Adam was blessed in the garden after he had sinned his sons were born outside the blessing and under the curse.
How can that be disputed?
and if the scripture says by one mans disobedience all men die . How then do you dispute that?
and if by one mans obedience how then do you dispute that?
Thus by one a man inherits corruption and death.
and b y the other he inherits righteousness and eternal life
if you deny the one you cannot have the other .

in Christ
Gerald
I believe I remember reading years ago that Paul was fluent in Hebrew and Greek, so what is your continued demeaning of those who can understand Greek and Hebrew.
 
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