Predestination a biblical perspective

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GBzone said:
No I am one who finds that the translation of the KJV is the most accurate into English and that a lot of people think that learning Hebrew or Greek automatically means you understand the scripture and those who don't cant .
He that receiveth me said Jesus receiveth Him that sent me .
He that does not also does not .
What then did Adam receive ? and whos words was accepted? By the doing of it ?
In Christ
gerald
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Familiarity with the original languages removes a layer of possible misunderstanding; nobody claims it makes us "automatically understand the scripture". When you said "Im afraid your Greek or Hebrew mislead you ", you're saying that it's actually a hindrance, which of course I dispute. Study of these languages does not lead anyone astray, as you claimed.

I do not consider the KJV the most accurate translation. But a lot of people who do, seem to think it makes them "automatically understand the scripture", so that charge goes both ways.

Adam, while awake, received the fruit offered by Eve, in spite of the fact that he had listened to her voice as she was tempted. Both of them ate. Both of them sinned. But only Adam blamed God. That's what the passage tells us.

And none of this pertains to the topic of predestination. Several references were already given showing that children do not inherit the sins of their fathers. And as I also said, there is no point in discussing this if you believe in predestination to salvation.
 
Relentless said:
Your opinion.


Exactly. He obeyed no one. And you have not offered any scriptural backing for the claim that he obeyed Eve.


I look at the Hebrew and Greek, even if through interlinears, and she did indeed hand it to him... because he was right there, as it says "her husband with her".


Taking what someone offers you is NOT obedience. It is acceptance.


That parable has nothing to do with the Fall in the slightest. Nothing in the context indicates Eve sneaking around, or Adam not being there when the serpent tempted her. To assert that Adam was asleep is a novel yet ridiculous claim, since once again nothing in the text backs it up. This is purely grasping at straws to avoid admitting what the text gives us: Adam was right there while Eve was being tempted, wide awake and aware.


Another baseless assertion.


I know the whole passage very well. But at least now you admit that Adam simply and willingly rebelled against God without being tempted or beguiled. That is why his was the greater sin, plus the fact that he blamed God for making Eve. At least Eve correctly identified the trickster.


Apparently you are one of those who thinks the KJV corrects the Greek and Hebrew. If so, there is no further point in trying to discuss this, or anything else, with you.
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A denial is not an argument .
In the parables of the kingdom and that parable by which you can understand all parables .
Does it not say The field is the world?
and the Seed is the Word ?
What was sown by the serpent?
and by what Word does man live by?
is there not the seed of the serpent? and the seed of the woman ?
If Adam was awake why did he not stop her eating the fruit?
Indeed is it not written that every fruit has with in it its own seed? Perhaps that should and needs consideration also.

Therefore if the argument that Adam was asleep when he should have been awake is not without foundation expecially if you consider that other garden when the Lord warned the disciples to take heed for the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak and therefore they should "watch and pray" lest they fall into temptation .
They slept the Last Adam prayed .
They fell .He did not.

in Christ
gerald

Relentless said:
All I know is that if predestination (to salvation) is true, then it's pointless to argue about it. :D
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GBzone said:
If it descends to such a carnal level it will not be by my doing .
There is a great difference between a progressive and unfolding discussion of biblical truth . and what I call head banging where you defend your 'truth' and another defends their 'truth' till the day they die .
Personally I am fed up to the teeth of such people who hinder any progress in understanding or stop people coming to a knowledge of the truth.
They will pay a awful price for doing so .
Did not the Lord promise that when the Spirit of truth shall come HE will lead us into all truth?
Is beyond the wit of God then to give us understanding when we by our own cannot?

in Christ
gerald
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Do you really think that it is every one else who does not know the truth and only YOU that does????

God's Word says that "Pride goeth before a fall".
 
Relentless said:
Ya know, all this positivity might go to my head... but I'll take the risk. :) Thank you.
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There are so many Biblically challenged people around that I am just tickled to see someone who has actually done some Bible study and appears to have a grasp of God's Word that I kind of lost my mind there.

OK. No more positive comments for you.
 
GBzone said:
A denial is not an argument .
In the parables of the kingdom and that parable by which you can understand all parables .
Does it not say The field is the world?
and the Seed is the Word ?
What was sown by the serpent?
and by what Word does man live by?
is there not the seed of the serpent? and the seed of the woman ?
If Adam was awake why did he not stop her eating the fruit?
Indeed is it not written that every fruit has with in it its own seed? Perhaps that should and needs consideration also.

Therefore if the argument that Adam was asleep when he should have been awake is not without foundation expecially if you consider that other garden when the Lord warned the disciples to take heed for the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak and therefore they should "watch and pray" lest they fall into temptation .
They slept the Last Adam prayed .
They fell .He did not.

in Christ
gerald
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Speaking of things that are not arguments...

Trying to apply a parable about the general condition of sin in the world to a SPECIFIC INCIDENT to claim that Adam HAD to be asleep is... to put it politely... a really wild and unstable interpretive method. We might as well say that Aaron was asleep when the people of Israel made the golden calf. In fact, we could use the "asleep" excuse for a whole lot of things. Maybe the Pharisees were asleep too. And Cain, and Ham, and...
 
Major said:
There are so many Biblically challenged people around that I am just tickled to see someone who has actually done some Bible study and appears to have a grasp of God's Word that I kind of lost my mind there.

OK. No more positive comments for you.
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:D

For the record, I am delighted to meet you as well. :cool:
 
GBzone said:
Predestination . A subject that is not easy to get ones head around though the spirit can grasp it far easier .
Make no mistake .The scriptures clearly teach that we are "predestined from before the foundations of the world unto good works that we should walk in them"
So let any or all who deny such a thing . keep silent .
If people actually went to the scriptures "to check if these things be true" rather than to all the different schools of 'theology' that are so entrenched in their positions .They either are still at the reformation or in a reverse reformation depending on who you believe .
But what does the scriptures say?
That every seed brings forth fruit "after its own kind "
A tomato seed will not bring forth apples .It is pre DESTINED to bring forth tomatoes and nothing else .
I do not believe we ,the church really understands the depths of what happened when Adam sinned and obeyed not God but his wife .
Perhaps a long hard and sober look at the Lords answer to sin may give us such a glimpse of the truth . When "he who knew no sin became sin"
be that as it may the fact is that even as" Levi was in the loins of Abraham when he gave tithes to Malchesidech ". So all men were in the loins of Adam when he corrupted himself and became subject to sin and death.
and are of his seed .
If then we are born of a corruptible seed which is of the first man that is of the earth .
Then that seed is predestined to bring forth corruption unto death .
and thus we are all born in sin and are by nature (including those who say they believe in Calvanism) " children of wrath " and as Ephesians say were as all men "children of disobedience"
Who then is excused? or not counted among such ? For all have sinned and have come short of the glory of God .Including Mary the mother of the Lords flesh .
Whether they be Jew or gentile . If any doubt it then Pauls argument in Romans is or should be enough and if it is not then this wont.
Then how is a man predestined for another end?
By being BORN again of another seed .
For while man or Adam was CREATED in the image of God . He is BORN in the image of Adam and thus "shapen in iniquity "
Being born of a corruptible seed means all men are predestined to brign forth corruption unto death .
You "MUST be BORN again " of an "incorruptible seed which is the Word of God" Means you are "translated not only from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of Gods dear Son" But from one predestination to another .
For an incorruptible seed is also subject to that law of God whereby every seed brings forth fruit after its own kind.
Thus this seed is predestined to bring forth righteousness unto life .

To be continued.....

in Christ
gerald
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Hi Gerald,
The passage you quoted from Eph. 1 about being predestine from the foundation of the world is not speaking of Christian, but rather the Jews. Also, the phrase "born again" is speaks of the Jews natural birth in the old covenant as opposed to the new. The Jews believed that their physical birth from Abraham would gain them entrance into the kingdom, Jesus tells Nicodemus it is not. If you loo through the Scriptures you'll find that all of the references to being born again are spoken to people was are physical Jews.
 
Butch5 said:
Hi Gerald,
The passage you quoted from Eph. 1 about being predestine from the foundation of the world is not speaking of Christian, but rather the Jews. Also, the phrase "born again" is speaks of the Jews natural birth in the old covenant as opposed to the new. The Jews believed that their physical birth from Abraham would gain them entrance into the kingdom, Jesus tells Nicodemus it is not. If you loo through the Scriptures you'll find that all of the references to being born again are spoken to people was are physical Jews.
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Your observation is correct, but I don't think your conclusion is valid. Surely all, both Jew and Gentile need to be born again.
 
calvin said:
Your observation is correct, but I don't think your conclusion is valid. Surely all, both Jew and Gentile need to be born again.
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While the process is the same for both, the phrase is only used of the Jews. The Jews believed that their physical birth gained them entrance into the kingdom
 
Butch5 said:
While the process is the same for both, the phrase is only used of the Jews. The Jews believed that their physical birth gained them entrance into the kingdom
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Again, your observation is correct, but I don't think your conclusion is valid. Surely all, both Jew and Gentile need to be born again.
If I were speaking to a certain ethnic group when I said "lemons are sour" that would not mean that only that ethnic group would find lemons sour.
But this is getting way off topic, unless lemons were predestined to be sour;).
 
Relentless said:
All I know is that if predestination (to salvation) is true, then it's pointless to argue about it. :D
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I think there are two ways of looking at predestination..............my way, or the wrong way the traditional way.
And thus is laid the foundation for some discussion.
 
Relentless said:
Familiarity with the original languages removes a layer of possible misunderstanding; nobody claims it makes us "automatically understand the scripture". When you said "Im afraid your Greek or Hebrew mislead you ", you're saying that it's actually a hindrance, which of course I dispute. Study of these languages does not lead anyone astray, as you claimed.

I do not consider the KJV the most accurate translation. But a lot of people who do, seem to think it makes them "automatically understand the scripture", so that charge goes both ways.

Adam, while awake, received the fruit offered by Eve, in spite of the fact that he had listened to her voice as she was tempted. Both of them ate. Both of them sinned. But only Adam blamed God. That's what the passage tells us.

And none of this pertains to the topic of predestination. Several references were already given showing that children do not inherit the sins of their fathers. And as I also said, there is no point in discussing this if you believe in predestination to salvation.
Click to expand...


I make no such claim. Nor am I ifallible as some foolishly c
Major said:
Do you really think that it is every one else who does not know the truth and only YOU that does????

God's Word says that "Pride goeth before a fall".
Click to expand...
Learning Greek and Hebrew can be profitable but as long as it is remembered that Hebrew was of no help to Saul of Tarsus or the religionsists who opposed Christ and Hebrew was their mother tounge.
and the snare is that you will lean more upon your understanding of Hebrew or Greek than trust in the lord who will and does lead you into all truth .

As for predestination . It cannot be denied as it si taught in scripture.
The example and means by which a foundational understanding can be obtained by the law of the seed .has not been either proved to be wrong by any here .
I never said a son inherits the sin of his father .I said in effect they inherit the consequences .
Adam was blessed in the garden after he had sinned his sons were born outside the blessing and under the curse.
How can that be disputed?
and if the scripture says by one mans disobedience all men die . How then do you dispute that?
and if by one mans obedience how then do you dispute that?
Thus by one a man inherits corruption and death.
and b y the other he inherits righteousness and eternal life
if you deny the one you cannot have the other .

in Christ
Gerald
 
calvin said:
Again, your observation is correct, but I don't think your conclusion is valid. Surely all, both Jew and Gentile need to be born again.
If I were speaking to a certain ethnic group when I said "lemons are sour" that would not mean that only that ethnic group would find lemons sour.
But this is getting way off topic, unless lemons were predestined to be sour;).
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Not disputed as to both Jew and Gentile having the need to be BORN again . My apologies if I gave that impression.
I would add that if a Jew will and does accept that the story of their beginning is believed and counted true as too their father .
So too then must they and the gentiles as it were believe and accept their beginnings and their father .
In truth Adam was neither Jew nor gentile?
and a Gentile only began (?)to be recognised as such by the separation by God of Abraham from that generation .
in Christ
gerald
 
Talking of Adam and his misadventure in the garden of Eden;
Being turfed out as it were and having to labor hard to get a feed must have been very difficult for him having a missing rib.....less support for his innards. Wonder if he ever developed a hernia?
 
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