Pre-rapture Vs Post Rapture

[SirWilfordBrimley]

Sir Wilford......You asked.......
"So my question is to all of you what do you believe as far as Pre and Post rapture and, if applicable, what denominations taught you this? If you are now, like me, non denominational, what part of the Bible brought you to your conclusion? "

Now, I am a Pre Rapture believer.

BUT........why does it become necessary to place blame or praise on a denomination? We are all old enough to read and study and even use a computer, so IMO the fact of what we believe is on us not someone we listened to in our past.

Pre and Post Rapture people come from all kinds of denominations. I was brought up as a non-denominational, educated in a Presbyterian college, and have served the Lord in the Baptist faith. I can assure you that the beliefs are all over the board.
I am a Baptist today because having been in or passed through most, I feel in my heart that as a whole the Baptist faith is closer to the Word of God as a whole than the others. That is my opinion so there is no need to feel as if I am putting the others down, it is just me.

Being also a Dispensationalist, the Bible itself taught me that there will be this event which will remove the saints from the wrath of God. The Bible also taught me that there is coming a SEVEN year time frame when God will turn all of His attention to the nation of Israel to bring them to Christ whom they have rejected.
(Isaiah 26:21, Zephaniah 1:18, Zecheriah 14:1-10; Daniel chapters 7:25,27 - & inc. chapter 11. Matt, 24:7-8; 14

The Bible told me that the Holy Spirit will leave the earth with the believers and an evil man of sin named the Anti-Christ will come to power. He will rule in peace for 3 1/2 years and then the Bible told me he would declare himself to be God and demand worship from the world.
(Rev. 3:10, 2 Corth. 15:1-7; 2 Thess. 4:17-31)

The Bible told me that it will be at this point (mid Trib) that the Jews will try to escape this man but he will work to kill all believers in Christ.
(2 Thess. 2:1-14, Rev. 6-15)

The Bible told me that 7 years after he comes to power, the Lord Jesus will come back with the host of heaven and stand on the Mt. of Olives and then sit on the throne of David in Jers. and rule for 1000 years.
(Zech. 14:1-10 and Rev. 19:11-20)

Ah but that is where you have indeed been misguided. Yes, ultimately it is up to you to read the gospel and to follow Christ, but it is up to the teacher to spread the full gospel of Christ. And lest we forget that they will be held accountable.

My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. James 3:1

I also believe that these teachers are setting up the people of God for a very, very vile deception. I do not know exactly what this deception is, but the Spirit bears witness that the doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture figures in heavily. But whatever it is, it will be strong enough to deceive God's most precious elect, if it were possible. Very few believers fall into that category. Very few. If it is strong enough to deceive them, what about the millions of lukewarm christians who bring great dishonor to Christ with their sinful lifestyles, and doctrines of devils? Did not the Apostle Paul warn of these types of people when he said that God would send them a strong delusion because they loved not the truth? Bear this in mind, saints of God, Satan is not sending this delusion, though he may be the instrument. God himself is sending this one.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.(2Th 2:8-12)

 

[Major]

Ah but that is where you have indeed been misguided. Yes, ultimately it is up to you to read the gospel and to follow Christ, but it is up to the teacher to spread the full gospel of Christ. And lest we forget that they will be held accountable.

My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. James 3:1

I also believe that these teachers are setting up the people of God for a very, very vile deception. I do not know exactly what this deception is, but the Spirit bears witness that the doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture figures in heavily. But whatever it is, it will be strong enough to deceive God's most precious elect, if it were possible. Very few believers fall into that category. Very few. If it is strong enough to deceive them, what about the millions of lukewarm christians who bring great dishonor to Christ with their sinful lifestyles, and doctrines of devils? Did not the Apostle Paul warn of these types of people when he said that God would send them a strong delusion because they loved not the truth? Bear this in mind, saints of God, Satan is not sending this delusion, though he may be the instrument. God himself is sending this one.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.(2Th 2:8-12)

I agree.

Dr. Billy Graham wrote a book many years ago which I have forgotten its name, but he said that he believed that only 25% of Church members are saved and would be raptured.

I think that might be a little high..........what do you think?

 

[SirWilfordBrimley]

Sir Willford............There is a lot of differance but the biggest is that Mr. Darby was a Bible believing Christian of the Brethren denomination.

You said............". So by adding this pre-rapture doctrine to the Bible, what makes them any different than the Mormons?"

Mr. Smith was a cultist who rejected Jesus Christ as Messiah and called himself the Messiah. Christ. To this day, Mormons are taught that heaven is obtained through Joseph Smith. He was not a Christian and cannot be compared with Mr. Darby.

"Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it and see if it will stand the test," (Brigham Young, May 18, 1873, Journal of Discourses, vol. 16, p. 46.)
What does Mormonism Teach? Well, here are some of the basics, plain and simple.
God came from another planet
God is a man with a body of flesh and bones
There is a mother goddess
God and his goddess wife are married
You can become gods
The Bible is NOT infallible, and is only acceptable when read in accordance with the Book of Mormon
A man can be saved after death if someone alive is baptized for him
Mormon believe Jesus’s birth was natural
Mormons do not see god as one and as holy spirit, they believe god himself was once like us.
Mormons do not accept in trinity, they believe there is three separate Gods
As for John Darby:
http://johndarby.org/
Griffith Thomas had this tribute to make: “Among the children of God, it was they who were most able to rightly divide the word of truth.” The biographer of H. A. Ironside, E. Schuyler English, said, “The Church owes a great debt to the Brethren. Many of its early leaders...were the Spirit's instruments to search out and open the truths in the unchanging Scriptures in a new way” (p. 83). Harry A. Ironside himself remarked, “Whether among those who know the brothers or those who do not know the brothers, all those who know God have received help from the brothers directly or indirectly.” Watchman Nee and Witness Lee were among those that received much help.

Conclusion.......No way to compare these two men.

You're speaking to someone from Utah so really there is nothing you can tell me that I don't already know. And if you were from the area, you would know that the Mormons claim to be christians. They claim there are 3 levels of heaven, only few believe in an actual hell depending on the level of lds faith, you can become a God only you reach the celestrial kingdom, and for FLAS, you can only become a god if you're in polygamy. Joseph Smith based his newly found faith off of an encounter with a non existent angel named moroni who told him to leave his methodist faith and start his newly received faith. But the commonality between both Darby and Smith was how both claimed to have in some way reinterpreted the Bible. And mormons do use the King James Bible, the book of mormon, doctrines and covenents, and the pearl of the great price. They use all of these in church. In order to avoid the last sentence in revelations they use 'the burning of the bosom. Either way you look at, they are both still wrong and both have changed what they call 'christianity' in some form.

 

[Intojoy]

I'm pre. Trib but not thru Darby but from the Old Test passages concerning it, my challenge is for everyone of us to prove our position based on the entire counsel of the Word rather than just the New Testament.

 

[Major]

I'm pre. Trib but not thru Darby but from the Old Test passages concerning it, my challenge is for everyone of us to prove our position based on the entire counsel of the Word rather than just the New Testament.

Agreed!!!!

The Rapture is NOT a Darby/Spurgeon/Ironside/Gill/Lindsey/Stanley teaching but instead comes from the whole Word of God.

Daniel 12:2..............
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."

In Daniel 12:1.........
Michael, who stands guard over Israel, will stand aside (the word "arise" [NASB] is an idiom that conveys an arising to allow someone or something to pass by or through).

Jeremiah 30:7 ..........
"Alas! for that day is great, there is none like it; and it is the time of Jacob's distress, but he will be saved from it."

 

[JustPassingThru]

Prove it from the Old Testament, ...a challenge?????

Sir, surely you jest!

How about Enoch and the flood, Enoch a type of the church, the flood a type of the trib, the ark a type of safety for God's people, ...how about Moses striking the rock twice, Paul tells us the rock was Christ, so because he struck it twice he was not allowed to enter the promised land, so if God struck His Son once on Calvary and we are in His Son, and we are struck during the trib, then Jesus is being struck twice, then God was wrong and will have to apologize to Moses, ...or how about the story of Ruth, Ruth is a type of the church, Naomi a type of Israel, Boaz a type of Jesus Christ, the nearer kinsman a type of the Law, where is Ruth during the threshing of the wheat harvest (which coincides with Pentecost, the last of the three mandatory Jewish feasts that has not been fulfilled prophetically), at Boaz's feet, not on the threshing floor which is a type of the trib, ...or how about the fiery furnace, heated seven (7, does the number 7 ring a bell) times hotter, the furnace a the type of the trib, the three young Jewish men a type of Israel, question, where was Daniel, ...in this story a type of the Church..., just to name a few that come to mind quickly,

I say this in respect, but you say you are a teacher and even post the warning for teachers, but you ask for proof of the rapture in the Old Testament? Do you not know Hos 12:10 that authenticates these types (similitudes - damah Strong's #H1819) I have listed that God said He used to speak to His people?

For every New Testament Doctrine we can find an illustration of it in the Old Testament, the pre-trib rapture being one of the Church doctrines that has the most illustrations in the Old Testament,

so here is a question for you, where did Paul get his info/inspiration for the doctrine of the rapture, now remember, the Revelation was written 40 years after the death of Paul.

Gene

 

[JustPassingThru]

Dup

 

[JustPassingThru]

Trip, third time is charm.

 

[calvin]

By non denominational I mean I do not follow the teachings of the church, but the teachings of Christ in the Bible.
I already know about that article. My point of mentioning darby was merely to show that it is the teachings of man and not of Christ. This is much like the Book of Mormon. The main difference betweem Joseph Smith and Darby is that Joseph printed his book as another Bible instead of one of his many doctrines and the mormons worship in the temple of the latter day saints where as many Christians include the rapture doctrine in many denominational churches of Christ. So by adding this pre-rapture doctrine to the Bible, what makes them any different than the mormons? Grace you say? Yes that is true, mormons believe you get to 'heavens' by works, and christians believe to get to heaven by Jesus' grace, but then I would ask you this; Which Jesus are you talking about?

OK, just seeking clarification sir wilford, I'm not on the attack. When being admitted to hospital for example and asked what my religion is I answer "Christian". So it would seem we are on the same page.
Ohh almost forgot......which Jesus? Is there more than one? I only know the one Jesus, the one who I nailed to the cross with my sin...Is there another?
In Christian love,
'the other guy'.

 

[calvin]

It must be stated here that other than the doctrine of the first coming of Christ, his death and resurrection and Messiahship, the doctrine of the Second Coming of Christ is the most important doctrine in scripture, in short it is the final act in God's promise of redemption. The return of the Messiah, Jesus Christ, to save his Church, the true Israel and heirs to the promise is the single most important doctrine in the Bible, with the possible exception of Christ's bodily resurrection. In short it is the consummation of the work of Jesus Christ. So how can any believer say, 'It isn't important', or 'it will all come out in the wash' or 'we'll know when he comes'?That was the mistake the Jews made when Christ came the first time and THEY WERE REJECTED FOR NOT KNOWING THE TIME OF THEIR VISITATION. Jesus told us to watch, over and over again he warns us to watch. How are we to know what to watch for? The answer to that is in the scriptures, in the writings of the Prophets and in the Messiah's words. This is a critical doctrine, because if you do not get this right, you will be as a man looking towards the east, when all the things he should be watching for are in the west. Remember, the Jews during Christs time, were hell-bound and eventually wound up hating and murdering the Christ who came to save them because they did not expect him to do the things that he did at the time that he did them. They wanted someone who would restore the kingdom of David and rid them of Roman Dominance without really turning towards God and doing the things that he commanded them to do. Today, believers want Christ to come to save them from the reign of Antichrist and severe persecution without the true repentance and more importantly the complete submission to Christ's Lordship (obedience) that leads to true salvation. In short, they want to fly away. Yet the scriptures clearly teach something very different. Lay hold of this, it is very important.

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

(Mat 24:26-27)
Paul also warned:
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

(2Th 2:1-4)

In conclusion, to answer your question, there is no 5 day warning. Either the trumpet sounds off or it doesn't. If I believed in the pre-rapture, I would have already been deceived and would have taken the mark of the beast. If I obeyed his word, I would have already been persecuted til the 7th trumpet sound.

G'day sir wilford, To cut a longgggg post down to size, the five days was merely a hypothetical no need to get steamed up over it.
There is a great difference between Christians (post pentecost) and the Jew of Jesus' time. They were un-regenerate, we are born again by the Spirit of God. How can you equate the two?
in Christian love,
the other guy

 

[calvin]

"calvin".......what do you think of Rev. 17:17
"For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will and to agree and give their kingdom unto the beast until the words of God shall be fulfilled".

Now when read with Ephesians 1:9-11, does it give us a better idea ?
9 "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will".

Major, I think King J and I were just passing through. He was editing his post at the same time I was seeking clarification is all

 

[calvin]

G'day again sir wilford, I have yet again a question for you.
Jesus often spoke of tribulation. How many tribulations do you understand there will be?
the other guy

 

[Stan]

There's PRE trib, POST trib and PAN trib.
I'm PAN trib.......it will all PAN out in the end!

 

[Stan]

OK sorry had to get that out of my system.

I believe in Pre-trib.

1 Cor 15:51-52
1 Thess 4: 13-18

These verses clearly show what happens when Jesus returns. There is NO mention of a tribulation.

Matthew 24 IMO is Jesus telling the Apostles what will befall the lost sheep of Israel during the tribulation. In v22 Jesus says; “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."
When Jesus spoke of the elect here, He was speaking of the House of Israel, NOT born again Christians.
There is also a dividing line in Matthew 24 between the purge in 70AD and future events. Many Preterists use Matthew 24 to show that the end times has already happened.

 

[SirWilfordBrimley]

OK sorry had to get that out of my system.

I believe in Pre-trib.

1 Cor 15:51-52
1 Thess 4: 13-18

These verses clearly show what happens when Jesus returns. There is NO mention of a tribulation.

Matthew 24 IMO is Jesus telling the Apostles what will befall the lost sheep of Israel during the tribulation. In v22 Jesus says; “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."
When Jesus spoke of the elect here, He was speaking of the House of Israel, NOT born again Christians.
There is also a dividing line in Matthew 24 between the purge in 70AD and future events. Many Preterists use Matthew 24 to show that the end times has already happened.

Correct that's because the book of Revelations REVEALS also of the end times. Also read the books of Matthew, Mark, and John.

 

[SirWilfordBrimley]

Prove it from the Old Testament, ...a challenge?????

Sir, surely you jest!

How about Enoch and the flood, Enoch a type of the church, the flood a type of the trib, the ark a type of safety for God's people, ...how about Moses striking the rock twice, Paul tells us the rock was Christ, so because he struck it twice he was not allowed to enter the promised land, so if God struck His Son once on Calvary and we are in His Son, and we are struck during the trib, then Jesus is being struck twice, then God was wrong and will have to apologize to Moses, ...or how about the story of Ruth, Ruth is a type of the church, Naomi a type of Israel, Boaz a type of Jesus Christ, the nearer kinsman a type of the Law, where is Ruth during the threshing of the wheat harvest (which coincides with Pentecost, the last of the three mandatory Jewish feasts that has not been fulfilled prophetically), at Boaz's feet, not on the threshing floor which is a type of the trib, ...or how about the fiery furnace, heated seven (7, does the number 7 ring a bell) times hotter, the furnace a the type of the trib, the three young Jewish men a type of Israel, question, where was Daniel, ...in this story a type of the Church..., just to name a few that come to mind quickly,

I say this in respect, but you say you are a teacher and even post the warning for teachers, but you ask for proof of the rapture in the Old Testament? Do you not know Hos 12:10 that authenticates these types (similitudes - damah Strong's #H1819) I have listed that God said He used to speak to His people?

For every New Testament Doctrine we can find an illustration of it in the Old Testament, the pre-trib rapture being one of the Church doctrines that has the most illustrations in the Old Testament,

so here is a question for you, where did Paul get his info/inspiration for the doctrine of the rapture, now remember, the Revelation was written 40 years after the death of Paul.

Gene

So shall I also sacrifice a lamb? Mark 13:19 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

It is very clear that no other generation can compare.

 

[SirWilfordBrimley]

You and Stan got conflicting info so I'm a little confused as to what exactly you both are trying to say. Paul wrote Thessalonians in 52AD and John wrote his pre69AD. So both were written before this 'purge and both were based off the teachings of Christ.

 

[SirWilfordBrimley]

G'day again sir wilford, I have yet again a question for you.
Jesus often spoke of tribulation. How many tribulations do you understand there will be?
the other guy

Tis only one tribulation (by satan)
tis only one rapture
and then God's wrath

That is also what order it comes in.

 

[Major]

Ok...I'll take the bait, Intojoy: Where are your OT proofs of a pre-Trib "rapture"?

See comment #26. That is only 3 of many many examples.

 

[Major]

OK sorry had to get that out of my system.

I believe in Pre-trib.

1 Cor 15:51-52
1 Thess 4: 13-18

These verses clearly show what happens when Jesus returns. There is NO mention of a tribulation.

Matthew 24 IMO is Jesus telling the Apostles what will befall the lost sheep of Israel during the tribulation. In v22 Jesus says; “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."
When Jesus spoke of the elect here, He was speaking of the House of Israel, NOT born again Christians.
There is also a dividing line in Matthew 24 between the purge in 70AD and future events. Many Preterists use Matthew 24 to show that the end times has already happened.

What Stan said here is correct in so far as he went with it. BUT he stopped at the Rapture which is what 1 Corth. and 1 Thess. describe. These verses have nothing to do with the Coming of Christ at Armageddon which is commonly known as the Second Coming of Christ.

As for the comment of NO mention of Tribulation:
Amos 8:9...................
“And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day.”

Revelation 8:12 says the sun shall be smitten and 1/3 cease to shine. Will the earth freeze without a third of the sun's light?

Joel 2:1-32 is fascinating, describing the horrors of the Tribulation in detail. It seems to me that Nuclear war will devastate the earth in the end times. That is just my personal opinion however.

Zechariah 14:12, ........
"Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.”

NO tribulation, I beg to disagree. To say that there is NO tribulation is to reject the entire book of the Revelation.

The words from Jesus Himself tell us in Matthew 24:21..........
"For then shall be great TRIBULATION such as was not since the beginning of the worldto this time, no, nor ever shall be".

In no other period of human history, past or future of the world will there be so much suffering, destruction. TRIBULATION as during the seven years called the Great Tribulation. These years are full of God's wrath...........

Exekiel 7:19
"They shall cast their silver in the streets and their gold shall be removed; their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the DAY OF THE WRATH OF THE LORD; they shall not stisfy their souls neither fill their bowels because it is the stumbling block of their iniquity."

These years of TRIBULATION are wrought with judgment......
Revelation 14:7.........
"Saying with a loud voice...gear God and give glory to him for the hour of his JUDGMENT is come; and worship him that made heaven and earth and the sea and the fountains of waters."

These years will be a time of darkness..........
Joel 2:2 says....................
"A day of DARKNESS and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness as the morning spread upon the mountains, a great people and a strong, there hath not been ever like neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations".

These will be days of trouble........
Joel 30:7
"Alas! for that day is great so that none is like it; it is even the time of Jacobs trouble, but he shall be saved out of it".

I can go on and on but I think the picture is clear from the Scriptures that the Day of the Lord will be about TRIBULATION!

The Church will be removed from the earth BEFORE the appearing of the Antichrist (2nd Thessalonians 2:7,8). There isn't one verse in the entire Bible which indicates that the Church will go through the Tribulation period. In fact, if you want proof of a Pretribulation Rapture, you'll find it simply by studying the Bible. If we compare Scriptures having to do with the Translation of the Church (i.e., the Rapture), with those passages relating to the setting up of Christ's Kingdom, one can only reasonably conclude that it would be utterly IMPOSSIBLE for these two events to occur simultaneously.