Pre-rapture Vs Post Rapture

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by SirWilfordBrimley, Aug 28, 2013.

  1. Hello all. Today I wanted to see if you guys either believe in the Pre-Rapture Tribulation or the Post Rapture Tribulation. I've asked this question to a few different people in different denominations, but I've had quite a few different pieces of information brought up that didn't really add up to what the Bible said. Now orginally I believed in the Pre Rapture, but now I believe in the post rapture of Christ. Now my family disagrees because they have been told all their life "pre-rapture," in a certain denomination they were in. But I also was raised to believe this, and it wasn't until a friend mentioned this topic and even when I read revelations that I started to question the "pre-rapture" belief. I did some research online and many brought up reasons as to why the prerapture theory is incorrect including verses in the bible, but they also mentioned it is based off the teachings and doctrines of John Darby. I had never in my life heard of this until I indeed looked that up, and to my surprise I realized I was taught incorrect. This is important because this is stressed throughout many Christian denominations about the Prerapture belief. So my question is to all of you what do you believe as far as Pre and Post rapture and, if applicable, what denominations taught you this? If you are now, like me, non denominational, what part of the Bible brought you to your conclusion?

  2. G'day Sir wilford,
    Really, does it matter? Let me ask you a few pointed questions.
    If the Archangel Michael came to you and said "it is going to be pre-tribulation rapture, and the tribulation will start five days from now", what would you do that is different from what you are doing now?

    If the Archangel Michael came to you and said "it is going to be post tribulation rapture, and the tribulation will start five days from now", what would you do that is different from what you are doing now?
  3. #3 Rusty, Aug 28, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2013
    Hello, Sir WB: You are absolutely correct: the theory is almost entirely the invention of Darby and Scofield. You are also correct in that the majority of evangelicals have swallowed this theory hook, line and sinker.

    I think it's vital to know the truth, as error or complacency is spiritually hazardous.

    I also am non-denominational, and do not buy into the "Escape Club" ideas of the majority, or the pre-trib "Rapture"as populists love to call it , itself not even a Bible term.

    But I will hold off until the "big guns" start firing at ya, and will limit my input. Just want ya yo know ya ain't alone.
    SirWilfordBrimley and Kurt75 say Amen and like this.
  4. Sir, do you mind if I ask you a question?

    What do you consider the "Tribulation" to be and please be specific?

    And I think you mean pre-tribulation rapture or post-tribulation rapture.


  5. OK, so I have another question for you Sir wilford. By non denominational, do you mean that you do not go to Church, or, is it that you fellowship in a non denominational denomination? o_O
    You it would seem have been listening to those who do err in their statement that John darby might be resposible for the teaching of pre tribulation rapture.
    Please consider the material to be found at
    some of which I have supplied below..................
    The enemies of Christ are very aggressive when it comes to honest Biblical inquiry. It is plain that they are afraid of any truth (other than their truth) being discovered by honest inquiry.
    BTW, I have no barrow to push on this as some others do, I'm only interested in serving the Lord rather than self.
    That is why I asked you the first two questions:)
  6. #6 KingJ, Aug 28, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2013
    2 Thess 2:1-12 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

    Conclusion: The Holy Spirit / God / us need to be removed before the anti-christ can have his way.

    Then there is applied Christian common sense from looking at past examples of 1. God's wrath, 2. mans wrath and 3. the devils wrath.

    1. God's people have always escaped or being sheltered from His wrath. Just look at blood on the doors for the Jews in Egypt. So if we are here during the tribulation we should not fear God's wrath.
    2. We do not always escape man's wrath, just look at Hitler.
    3. We are all protected from the devil or else we would all be dead. The devil can simply not do anything more then what he is currently doing with us and God (Holy Spirit) still hanging around here. Any exorcist / Christian will harass / send him away :).

    Conclusion: Christians can and do go through hell on earth. So many can be forgiven for thinking we will endure the tribulation. But the tribulation is not wrath from man or initially God. Rather it is the 'devils time in the sun'. Chiefly, I believe to fulfil scripture of God's promise to the Jews as mentioned here by Major,
    Major likes this.
  7. So....KingJ, are you saying that you believe that the (great) Tribulation is by the hand of the Lord, by the hand of man or by the hand of Satan?
    I have no argument, I am just :unsure: what you mean.
  8. Its all God ordained. First half satan's wrath, second half, God. Not sure if you read my last bit of editing there, I make full use of the 25 min window :).
  9. OK thanks for the clarification. I had just come home and didn't think to look at the time of your posting else I would have waited. I too like to take advantage of the 25 minute window.
  10. Excellent point sir.
  11. It must be stated here that other than the doctrine of the first coming of Christ, his death and resurrection and Messiahship, the doctrine of the Second Coming of Christ is the most important doctrine in scripture, in short it is the final act in God's promise of redemption. The return of the Messiah, Jesus Christ, to save his Church, the true Israel and heirs to the promise is the single most important doctrine in the Bible, with the possible exception of Christ's bodily resurrection. In short it is the consummation of the work of Jesus Christ. So how can any believer say, 'It isn't important', or 'it will all come out in the wash' or 'we'll know when he comes'?That was the mistake the Jews made when Christ came the first time and THEY WERE REJECTED FOR NOT KNOWING THE TIME OF THEIR VISITATION. Jesus told us to watch, over and over again he warns us to watch. How are we to know what to watch for? The answer to that is in the scriptures, in the writings of the Prophets and in the Messiah's words. This is a critical doctrine, because if you do not get this right, you will be as a man looking towards the east, when all the things he should be watching for are in the west. Remember, the Jews during Christs time, were hell-bound and eventually wound up hating and murdering the Christ who came to save them because they did not expect him to do the things that he did at the time that he did them. They wanted someone who would restore the kingdom of David and rid them of Roman Dominance without really turning towards God and doing the things that he commanded them to do. Today, believers want Christ to come to save them from the reign of Antichrist and severe persecution without the true repentance and more importantly the complete submission to Christ's Lordship (obedience) that leads to true salvation. In short, they want to fly away. Yet the scriptures clearly teach something very different. Lay hold of this, it is very important.

    Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    (Mat 24:26-27)
    Paul also warned:
    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    (2Th 2:1-4)

    In conclusion, to answer your question, there is no 5 day warning. Either the trumpet sounds off or it doesn't. If I believed in the pre-rapture, I would have already been deceived and would have taken the mark of the beast. If I obeyed his word, I would have already been persecuted til the 7th trumpet sound.
    Rusty likes this.
  12. Well.......There are several theories on what you ask about the Rapture, but IMO it seems that there are only two that dominate.

    1. The Pre-tribulation Rapture.
    2. The Post-tribulation Rapture.

    The Post-tribulation theory is the belief that the church will not be raptured until the very end of Tribulation, and that the Rapture and the Second coming of Christ are a single event rather than two separate events as held by those who follow the Pre-tribulation teaching.

    Now as for Mr. Darby being the one who brought this to the attention of the Christian world.........what does that matter???
    The Rapture even has been in the Scriptures for almost 2000 years. The fact that Brother Darby expounded it has no relevance at all to its truth or non-truth. He was a man whom God used to get out the Word of God.

    Martin Luther expounded the "Saved by Grace" doctrine in 1524 but Ephesians 2:8 has also been in the Scriptures for 2000 years. Just like Darby, Luther was a man God used to get out the Word of God.

    To be totally honest and straight forward.......I pretty much reject anything said by experts (?) today when who dinagrate the great Christian men of past ages who have opened their Bible to study just like I open my today. Were they all perfect, did they never make a mistake or say something that maybe they should not have said, YES. But haven't we all done the same thing in our lives today????? The point is.........did David sin and do some wrong things, did Ezekiel sin and do some wrong things, did Moses sin and do some wrong things? Who are we to condemn those great saints we it is US that does not accept the teachings of God's Word regardless of "when" it is expounded.

    Example: There are people on this website who believe and teach that speaking in tongues (Un-entelligable uttering) is valid today but reject the Rapture because it was only expounded in the middle 1800's by Mr. Darby. But tongues were not seen here until 1900. In the year 1900 Charles F. Parham opened the Bethel Bible School in Topeka, Kansas, and this school held that the signs of tongues and healing should be normal for the church.

    You can argue and post all you want but the practice of speaking in tongues began in about 1900. It is accepted and practiced but the Rapture pre-dates the teaching of tongues and it is rejected because it is too recent to be valid.

    Does that make any logical sense????

    Now, back to the point. What was that point? O yea...........If the Rapture is to take place before the Tribulation, then it could happen at any moment. That speaks to anticipation and immanance. Now this is not rocket science or brain surgery. IF an old man like man can figure this out, everyone can. Now follow this......................................

    On the other hand, if the Rapture is to take place at the end of Tribulation, after all the prophecy concerning the events of the Tribulation period have taken place, we certainly will not find ourselves living as if He could appear at any moment.

    The fact is that we will know He is coming by post dating the beginning of the Tribulation and then counting forward to the end of 7 years. Do you see what I have just done????????????

    I have told you when Jesus is coming back. Now is that in line with the Word of God.??????

    Matthew 25:36, Jesus tells us about His Second coming and who knows.........................
    "But of that day (2nd Coming) and hour knoweth no man, no not the angels of heaven BUT MY FATHER ONLY".

    I submit that those who hold to the post-tribulation Rapture know as much as God the Father does according to what His Word says in Matthew. How can that be possible????

    We all might want to THINK about this before being talked into something from false teachers on the internet.
  13. By non denominational I mean I do not follow the teachings of the church, but the teachings of Christ in the Bible.
    I already know about that article. My point of mentioning darby was merely to show that it is the teachings of man and not of Christ. This is much like the Book of Mormon. The main difference betweem Joseph Smith and Darby is that Joseph printed his book as another Bible instead of one of his many doctrines and the mormons worship in the temple of the latter day saints where as many Christians include the rapture doctrine in many denominational churches of Christ. So by adding this pre-rapture doctrine to the Bible, what makes them any different than the mormons? Grace you say? Yes that is true, mormons believe you get to 'heavens' by works, and christians believe to get to heaven by Jesus' grace, but then I would ask you this; Which Jesus are you talking about?
  14. Sir Wilford......You asked.......
    "So my question is to all of you what do you believe as far as Pre and Post rapture and, if applicable, what denominations taught you this? If you are now, like me, non denominational, what part of the Bible brought you to your conclusion? "

    Now, I am a Pre Rapture believer.

    BUT........why does it become necessary to place blame or praise on a denomination? We are all old enough to read and study and even use a computer, so IMO the fact of what we believe is on us not someone we listened to in our past.

    Pre and Post Rapture people come from all kinds of denominations. I was brought up as a non-denominational, educated in a Presbyterian college, and have served the Lord in the Baptist faith. I can assure you that the beliefs are all over the board.
    I am a Baptist today because having been in or passed through most, I feel in my heart that as a whole the Baptist faith is closer to the Word of God as a whole than the others. That is my opinion so there is no need to feel as if I am putting the others down, it is just me.

    Being also a Dispensationalist, the Bible itself taught me that there will be this event which will remove the saints from the wrath of God. The Bible also taught me that there is coming a SEVEN year time frame when God will turn all of His attention to the nation of Israel to bring them to Christ whom they have rejected.
    (Isaiah 26:21, Zephaniah 1:18, Zecheriah 14:1-10; Daniel chapters 7:25,27 - & inc. chapter 11. Matt, 24:7-8; 14

    The Bible told me that the Holy Spirit will leave the earth with the believers and an evil man of sin named the Anti-Christ will come to power. He will rule in peace for 3 1/2 years and then the Bible told me he would declare himself to be God and demand worship from the world.
    (Rev. 3:10, 2 Corth. 15:1-7; 2 Thess. 4:17-31)

    The Bible told me that it will be at this point (mid Trib) that the Jews will try to escape this man but he will work to kill all believers in Christ.
    (2 Thess. 2:1-14, Rev. 6-15)

    The Bible told me that 7 years after he comes to power, the Lord Jesus will come back with the host of heaven and stand on the Mt. of Olives and then sit on the throne of David in Jers. and rule for 1000 years.
    (Zech. 14:1-10 and Rev. 19:11-20)
  15. "calvin".......what do you think of Rev. 17:17
    "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will and to agree and give their kingdom unto the beast until the words of God shall be fulfilled".

    Now when read with Ephesians 1:9-11, does it give us a better idea ?
    9 "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
    10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
    11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will".
  16. A. Read both my replies to the other guy
    B. We are able to look at the signs of the weather and see when the seasons are changing and a new season is coming. So we can also look for the signs that he has told us of, and we can know that the time is near that he will be coming. Also, in regard to knowing the time of his coming Jesus said:

    “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

    -Matthew 24:36

    This is true; we do not know exactly what day, and we especially do not know what hour of the day he is coming back. We can see the signs of his coming and prepare for his appearing.

    “But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

    For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

    Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”

    -1 Thessalonians 5:1-6

    The pre-tribulation rapture teaches that the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is going to come on us with no announcement - that he will come as a thief in the night. Paul said that the day should not overtake us as a thief, but we are to watch and be sober! What are we watching for? The signs that Jesus told us to watch for!
  17. Sir Willford............There is a lot of differance but the biggest is that Mr. Darby was a Bible believing Christian of the Brethren denomination.

    You said............". So by adding this pre-rapture doctrine to the Bible, what makes them any different than the Mormons?"

    Mr. Smith was a cultist who rejected Jesus Christ as Messiah and called himself the Messiah. Christ. To this day, Mormons are taught that heaven is obtained through Joseph Smith. He was not a Christian and cannot be compared with Mr. Darby.

    "Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it and see if it will stand the test," (Brigham Young, May 18, 1873, Journal of Discourses, vol. 16, p. 46.)
    What does Mormonism Teach? Well, here are some of the basics, plain and simple.
    God came from another planet
    God is a man with a body of flesh and bones
    There is a mother goddess
    God and his goddess wife are married
    You can become gods
    The Bible is NOT infallible, and is only acceptable when read in accordance with the Book of Mormon
    A man can be saved after death if someone alive is baptized for him
    Mormon believe Jesus’s birth was natural
    Mormons do not see god as one and as holy spirit, they believe god himself was once like us.
    Mormons do not accept in trinity, they believe there is three separate Gods
    As for John Darby:
    Griffith Thomas had this tribute to make: “Among the children of God, it was they who were most able to rightly divide the word of truth.” The biographer of H. A. Ironside, E. Schuyler English, said, “The Church owes a great debt to the Brethren. Many of its early leaders...were the Spirit's instruments to search out and open the truths in the unchanging Scriptures in a new way” (p. 83). Harry A. Ironside himself remarked, “Whether among those who know the brothers or those who do not know the brothers, all those who know God have received help from the brothers directly or indirectly.” Watchman Nee and Witness Lee were among those that received much help.

    Conclusion.......No way to compare these two men.
  18. That sounds good to me Sir. It sounds like we are on the same page.
  19. #19 Intojoy, Aug 28, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2013
    Challenge: prove your position from the Old Testament only. :)
  20. Hello Sir.

    May I speak to your comment of ........." So by adding this pre-rapture doctrine to the Bible, what makes them any different than the Mormons".

    John Darby did not add the Rapture to the Bible Sir.........2 Corth. and 1 Thess. were written in about 60 AD. It was always there and he explained what was there as the Holy Spirit moved him to understanding in the same way He did to Martin Luther concerning grace. Any believer can reject the writings of John Darby and no one cares.

    Joseph Smith DID change the Bible completely. He claimed to have received golden plates from Gabriel and from them he wrote the book of Mormon. Mormons doctrine is that the Bible is the Word of God when read in conjuction with the book of Mormon. Reject the book of Mormon and you are excamunicated!!!!!

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