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Pope's New Tweet

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by LanceA, Sep 17, 2014.

  1. And because we are his children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, prompting us to call out, “Abba, Father.” Now you are no longer a slave but God’s own child. And since you are his child, God has made you his heir. (‭Galatians‬ ‭4‬:‭6-7‬ NLT)
    I'm not an orphan, the Word of God says I'm a child of God.
     
    Major, JG27_chili, Abdicate and 1 other person say Amen and like this.
  2. This isn't really news. Every pope who has written about Mary has expressed this. Not sure how this is news. And I agree with him. Though from a non-Catholic Christian perspective, it will lead to lots of misunderstanding.

    The misunderstanding, with all due respect of course, leads to statements like "Why would I be an orphan if I have Jesus? I don't need Mary, I have Jesus." This isn't the sentiment that Catholicism has addressed. We go to Jesus directly and also through the intercession of the mother. Though I suspect even that will be misunderstood.

    All I can say for now is don't mistake this as a replacement of Christ or a worship of Mary. It is none of those. It is a recognition of the role of Mary which is that she directs us to her Son, the only one who has saved us.

    While I do get annoyed with the pope sometimes for saying so many things that get misunderstood (we really need more direct and clear speak), he hasn't said anything new or rebellious. He's said the same thing every pope has said for the past 2000 years.
     
  3. Thanks for response. I just don't see where we need mary to intercede for us? Our only mediator is Jesus. I guess I would really like to understand where it comes from.
     
  4. #5 LysanderShapiro, Sep 17, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014
    You're right for saying our only mediator is Jesus -- this is true. Only one has been a mediator between man and God, and that's Christ -- this is the position of the Catholic Church as well, so the Church and you are in total agreement.

    Mary isn't a secondary mediator between man and God, but we do intercede for one another when we pray for each other. Let's say Joe Schmoe is having problems with his spiritual life. He could go to his room and pray, one on one, to God, and I'd say that's not a bad thing at all--actually, it's a good thing. However, it would be even better if Joe went to his prayer group or to his church pastor and asked everyone to pray for him. The intercession of fellow Christians--especially ones close to God--is so much more powerful.

    This is the role of Mary. We understand that no one has ever been so close to our Lord than she was because she is His mother. We also honor her (not worship her) because Jesus honored her since we are all commanded to honor our parents. When we honor her, we only mean to imitate Jesus.

    So to briefly put it:
    -Jesus is the only mediator between man and God.
    -We have a duty, as Christians, to pray for each other and help direct each other to Christ.
    -Mary, being the mother, was the closest person to Christ.
    -Mary helps direct us to her son.
    -We honor Mary as a mother because that's what Jesus did, and we want to be like Jesus.

    That's the simplest way I could put it. I think without explanation, it does lead to a lot of misunderstanding.
     
    Ghid likes this.
  5. I like your response. (y) Intercessors are necessary. Charles Finny had one go before him into any city God laid on his heart to visit before arriving. To prepare the ground. My only problem with anything about Mary is the "praying to her" part. Would anyone pray to Finny's intercessor? No. Nor would any intercessor hear the prayers of someone, for they are not God. And I think that's the rub for non-Catholics.
     
    LysanderShapiro likes this.
  6. Yep. The word "pray" has almost a different meaning with Catholics and orthodox. It could mean worship as long as it is directed to God. But to pray also means to offer petitions. Catholics don't pray TO Mary so much as we pray THROUGH Mary -- we ask her to pray with us and for is.

    So if the concern is "step aside, God -- I'll just talk to Mary," then both the Catholic Church and you share the same concern.
     
  7. I agree with you that having someone pray with me is better than one on one but I don't see where Mary is being that person.
     
  8. Consider this analogy:
    If you were to ask either your co-worker or your pastor who you are close to to pray for you, you'd first go to your pastor because you know he has a closer, deeper relationship with God.

    We go to Mary for that same exact reason. No one has ever been closer to God than His own mother.

    That's the reason for it.
     
  9. I understand where you are coming from but can we back that up with scripture? To ask someone who is dead is basically trying to pray to them. And the bible also warns us not to communicate with the dead. I do appreciate you trying to explain this though.
     
    svdbyJesus likes this.
  10. Indeed. We know through Scripture that we shouldn't communicate with the dead, but we also know through Scripture that God is not a God of the dead, but f the living. We also know through Scripture that we receive eternal life in Heaven. And we further know through Scripture that we, as the body of Christ, must pray for one another.

    So those in heaven are not dead, but alive through Christ. Those in heaven remain part of the body of Christ, and therefore we continue to ask for their intercession in praying with and for us. They are not doing this in the earthy sense since they are no longer bound by earthly limitations like time and exhaustion, but through a greater heavenly sense since they are in God's presence.
     
  11. By the way, just so everyone knows, I'm not arguing against or trying to change the minds of anyone--just offering some clarity.

    If some misunderstanding on the subject makes more sense, then that's good enough for me :)
     
  12. I am a person who tests the spirits and to do this I need biblical verses that back up your claim that Saints, or people dead who are alive in heaven spiritually pray for us and that we should ask them to pray for us. Not saying you are trying to lead me wrong, I just can't take something as truth unless it is in the Bible.
     
    Major likes this.
  13. And so you should -- I wouldn't take anything like this at face value, and I wouldn't encourage it either.

    I mentioned that these things are in the Bible, but I didn't give Bible references (shame on me). Though in my defense, I was riding a crowded metro and couldn't get too deep into it.

    But here are the passages:

    1: Do not communicate with the dead.
    Leviticus 19:31 - Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God.

    100% agree. Though I'll give passages as to why this is not what intercession of Mary and angels and saints is. We're not talking about not necromancers.

    2: God is a God of the living.
    Matthew 22:32 - I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

    We first have to establish this. We recently got into the subject of heaven in a thread. We got into the souls of the saved and the resurrection of the bodies after the second coming, but that this is a gift to those who accepted Christ.

    3: We receive eternal life in heaven.
    Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    This is completely grounded in the Gospel as it our gift from God. So understanding that God is a God of the living and we receive that eternal life in heaven, not death, we have to conclude that it is a continuation of life (albeit, fulfilled spiritually and in the presence of God).

    4: Why ask those in heaven to pray for us if we could just pray ourselves or at least ask friends on earth to pray for us?
    1 Timothy 2:1 - First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,

    Of course we know to pray for others and ask others to pray for us, but why people in heaven? Well, while it is always a good idea to pray to God one-on-one and with friends and church leaders, it's still a great idea to ask those in heaven to intercede and pray for and with us. Why? Because they are literally in God's presence. They have reached their fullness and are with Him. No one is closer to Him than those who are literally with Him. But just because they aren't on earth doesn't mean they are now kicked out of the body of Christ -- in fact, they are more a part of it.

    5: Are there any passages on the saints?
    Hebrews 12:1, Revelation 8:3, Revelation 5:8 -- they directly talk about the support they offer in helping us see God's love and truth. In the passages in Revelation, they mention the prayers of the saints being lifted. In fact, if you go to some churches, the reason why they burn incense is to symbolize our prayers being lifted up to God. It's nothing meant to be New Agey or voo-dooey, but to help us focus on where our prayers ultimately lead to, which is God.

    One of the best things we could have in life is a friend or role model that will help us in our spiritual walk. Someone who will always help us up when we fall. While it's obvious that God will always be the best friend we could ever have and that He will not disappoint us, sometimes it can be easy to fall away from God. So having support from other Christians is what is not just recommended, but expected. It's something we need. This is the role of Mary and the saints -- and it isn't done for their glory, but for God's.

    One passage that sticks out to me when it comes to Mary's role in directing us to God is John 2:3-5 at the wedding in Cana - When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”

    This passage is very important as it illustrates what Mary has always done and continues to do.

    So these are the passages and logic behind why Mary is held in such a high regard (not on the level of worship, but as an important figure in the Church). The ultimate goal isn't to have a relationship with Mary -- that's a path -- the destination is to have that relationship with her son, Jesus.
     
  14. Larry, just so that we are all on the same page here, is there on record in the Catholic Church the idea that Mary is also a redeemer or co-redememtrix?
     
  15. The short answer is yes, the Catholic Church recognizes Mary as a co-redemptrix.

    But before walking away and saying "There you have it -- the Church doesn't believe in one mediator between man and God," you have to understand what this title means.

    To begin, it doesn't mean that there are now two mediators between man and God. Jesus has always and will always be the only one. It is only through Him that we have salvation. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. It is only through Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection that we are saved. But God willed that this work of salvation be accomplished through the collaboration of a woman, while still respecting her free will (Galatians 4:4).

    When Jesus was presented in the temple, the prophet Simeon, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, told Mary that "a sword will pierce your own heart also" (Luke 2:35). This passage is the basis for the Catholic understanding that Mary shared in the sufferings of Jesus in a mysterious way, and that her sufferings were a part of the suffering He went through.

    The term "mediatrix" was originated at least in the 3rd century but became more common in the 4th century. My experience when I was critical of these terms was that I still found the title "Co-Redemptrix" a stretch. Even after my conversion, there was some difficulty in accepting these terms -- they seemed out of place. However, when I looked further, Mary may have had an intimate understanding of the redemptive work of Christ, and she may have a role as intercessor and prayer warrior, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that she is the Co-Redemptrix. At this point, it is worth mentioning that we don’t suggest that Mary’s cooperation with God is equal to Christ’s work -- it's not, clearly. It's of a different order, but it's necessary nonetheless. Mother Teresa’s words "No Mary, No Jesus" express a pretty profound truth -- God chose to bring His Son into the world through the cooperation of Mary. Without that cooperation there would have been no Incarnation and therefore no Redemption.

    And this is what the term means.
     
  16. #17 LysanderShapiro, Sep 18, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014
    Just a heads up, I'm only explaining the terms and understandings we have of Mary from a Catholic position. I don't mind discussion, but if I see some attack coming from either side (Catholics attacking Protestants or Protestants attacking Catholics--even if it is unintentional), action might be taken.

    Subjects like these can be hot button, so I think it's necessary to remind the thread to approach it with responsibility, respect, and understanding.

    Any attempt to smear or twist heresies on anyone is out of the question, period.
     
  17. From...http://churchsociety.org/issues_new/ecum/roman/iss_ecum_roman_mary1.asp#mediatrix

    Roman Catholic Church in the Lumen Gentium , the Second Vatican Council, 21st November 1964. Thus Roman Catholic Catechism 966 states:

    'You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.' Para 968: 'Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. In a wholly singular way she co-operated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the Saviour's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace.' Para 969: ' This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.'

    This is the official stance of the Roman Catholic Church on Mary's role as mediatrix and co-redemptrix.

    I hope that you can see how this Catholic doctrine can be an obstacle for Protestant believers. And yes it can and has led to many arguments but IMO we all have the knowledge and liberty to believe as we wish. I see no reason to argue over someone's choice of religion.

    As always, it is good to speak with you and may God bless you. And congrats on being s staff member!
     
  18. I agree with you.
     
  19. #20 LysanderShapiro, Sep 18, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014
    The paragraph in Lumen Gentium hasn't said anything in contradiction. In fact, I said the same exact thing, but in laymen's terms.

    There's a polish bishop in Kazakhstan named Archbishop Athanasius Schneider. He has been pushing for a council and document to be released in regards to the understanding of Vatican II. It's called a Syllabus of Errors. Its intention is to explain what Vatican II was, what it wasn't, how people have misunderstood so much of it, and how it can be corrected.

    Much of it is in regards to the liturgy, but another is to explain, in simple terms for laity, the role of Mary.

    Vatican II itself isn't wrong, but it has lead to a lot of confusion, even within clergy.

    Also, thanks Major! May God bless you too.
     

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