Please help my little mind :3

[Fish Catcher Jim]

What other way could be used, that doesn't invalidate it?

If you use the scripture at hand only then you may miss out on a true prophet.
If I said hey like Isaiahs words did not happen.....false prophet......I would be cutting my self off or making false claims against a true prophet....

This entie conversation started about Deut. 18:22......I am just saying to use this scripture or approuch ONLY may not be the best way......Because like with Jonah and Isaiah and others, God is merciful and repentence can change what was spoken and if you go by if the prophets words dont happen then a false prophet....well it's just not good....

 

[Relentless]

If you use the scripture at hand only then you may miss out on a true prophet.
If I said hey like Isaiahs words did not happen.....false prophet......I would be cutting my self off or making false claims against a true prophet....

This entie conversation started about Deut. 18:22......I am just saying to use this scripture or approuch ONLY may not be the best way......Because like with Jonah and Isaiah and others, God is merciful and repentence can change what was spoken and if you go by if the prophets words dont happen then a false prophet....well it's just not good....

And I had responded already about times when God leaves the door open to alternatives. The problem with most self-proclaimed prophets today is that they never have any word from God about conditions for fulfillment. When someone says Jesus is coming back on Tuesday, without any conditions, they cannot claim after the fact that conditions applied. Otherwise we have no way of determining true from false, and we can never use Deut. 18:22 as a test.

So once again: What is your test of a prophet, based on scripture?

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

And I had responded already about times when God leaves the door open to alternatives. The problem with most self-proclaimed prophets today is that they never have any word from God about conditions for fulfillment. When someone says Jesus is coming back on Tuesday, without any conditions, they cannot claim after the fact that conditions applied. Otherwise we have no way of determining true from false, and we can never use Deut. 18:22 as a test.

So once again: What is your test of a prophet, based on scripture?

Well as Believers we would not pay any attention to such mumbo jumbo as Jesus is coming back tuesday. We are taught to be prepared, sober minded and walking uprightly with Our God because Jesus will come like a thief in the night. So if even Jesus does not know when this time the Father has set forth why would any man know different ?

This thing here we are going back and forth with started when I said to the OP that Deut 18:22 was not the only way and we should not depend on this totally. We agreed that God is merciful and will change a message sent by Him when repentance is at hand. He has used a donkey to speak to a prophet who was going in the wrong direction.

You pray about what is said. You seek God about what is said. You line it up with the word of God.. You simply can not say a prophet is false if a message they gave did not come to pass. If one claims some silly off the wall message then why would you need any scripture to check it out...If you are renewing your mind to the word of God and walking in the spirit then Discernment would play in.

I do not know what it is you want me to say. As far as I am concerned it is settled. I hope this does not sound harsh,,,,,I truly is not meant to be.
Have a wonderful day.

 

[Relentless]

You pray about what is said. You seek God about what is said. You line it up with the word of God.. You simply can not say a prophet is false if a message they gave did not come to pass. If one claims some silly off the wall message then why would you need any scripture to check it out...If you are renewing your mind to the word of God and walking in the spirit then Discernment would play in.

I do not know what it is you want me to say. As far as I am concerned it is settled. I hope this does not sound harsh,,,,,I truly is not meant to be.
Have a wonderful day.

What I've been trying to say is that we have an explicit scripture telling us how to test whether a prophet is from God, but you say we cannot use that test. And as for discernment, there are many people who will claim that what we consider 'silly' is a direct word from God, so leaving it up to our own personal preferences is shaky ground. When we have a specific scripture telling us how to test a prophet, we cannot lightly dismiss it.

I was only looking for you to explain why the explicit test given in scripture is not to be obeyed. The matter certainly isn't settled, but probably isn't going to be. You have a nice day too.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

What I've been trying to say is that we have an explicit scripture telling us how to test whether a prophet is from God, but you say we cannot use that test. And as for discernment, there are many people who will claim that what we consider 'silly' is a direct word from God, so leaving it up to our own personal preferences is shaky ground. When we have a specific scripture telling us how to test a prophet, we cannot lightly dismiss it.

I was only looking for you to explain why the explicit test given in scripture is not to be obeyed. The matter certainly isn't settled, but probably isn't going to be. You have a nice day too.

Ok lets try this again...... I wish we had better smilies in here.
I have NOT said we can NOT use this scripture...what I have been saying is that we SHOULD NOT ONLY use this scripture. I would not ever say a scripture is wrong....

We both agreed that God can give a prophet a message and then when it is delivered if the person or persons in which this message was given has a repentitive heart that God is merciful and has a habbit of changing the out come. Some times I think God knew along how the person would react and simply used the message as a wake up call so He could get this person moving in the right direction.

I also said discerment was a tool that a believer who is walking in the spirit should use as well to determine if what is being said is on the line or not.

Then you replied with this........as for discernment, there are many people who will claim that what we consider 'silly' is a direct word from God, so leaving it up to our own personal preferences is shaky ground.

Discernment and personal preferences go together like water and electricity...
They are not even close to being the same thing. Personal preferences is what you see alot of through out the forum world......God given Discerment is right on time.

If some one thinks what a believer knows is silly and then wants to believe something else, how does this make using discernment wrong or on shaky ground. People will think a lot of things are silly that a true believer knows to be true. Besides we were not talking about other people, but giving the OP a better way to judge what a prophet or one who claims to be a prophet is saying......

You also said.......I was only looking for you to explain why the explicit test given in scripture is not to be obeyed. The matter certainly isn't settled, but probably isn't going to be. You have a nice day

Well there you go, you can stop looking for me to explain why the explicit test given in scripture is not to be obeyed.... Because I have not ever claimed it was not to be obeyed.
So I wont be doing any such thing.
We are faith people right ? so why the sad statment that it probably wont be settled? Where is your faith my friend ?

Ok to sum this up real quick
Discernment
Knowing the scriptures
Praying and seeking God on what has been said
Deut: 18:22
Are all ways one should be using to determine if what is said is true...That has been my point from the start...

So now what do you have to say ? Hey it's kind of like tag your it....LOL
Have a wonderful day my friend
Jim

 

[Relentless]

Ok lets try this again...... I wish we had better smilies in here.
I have NOT said we can NOT use this scripture...what I have been saying is that we SHOULD NOT ONLY use this scripture. I would not ever say a scripture is wrong....

Let me try to explain with an analogy. Looking at the requirements for church leaders, we see a list of characteristics that include integrity, self-discipline, and compassion. Then suppose we are assessing the possibility that a person in our congregation is leadership material. We see that this person has integrity but lacks compassion. Should we consider this person a leader? No, because the list of requirements is "and", not "or". That is, the leader must have all of the qualities, not just some of them.

Likewise, if someone claims to have a prophecy from God, we have a list of requirements, and the list is "and" rather than "or". So if the list item "comes true" is not met, it invalidates the claim to divine prophecy. You gave a list of sorts in the last part of your comment, but it appears that to you this is an "or" list rather than and "and" list. To me, we cannot discard the item "doesn't come true" even if all the other criteria are met. My conviction is that nothing subjective will ever override or contradict what is objective; that is, discernment cannot override an explicit teaching of scripture. And scripture says explicitly that the prophecy must always come true.

I also said discerment was a tool that a believer who is walking in the spirit should use as well to determine if what is being said is on the line or not.

I've known people who had no discernment at all, but who claimed to have it in abundance. Various denominations think they each have discernment but clearly they can't all have it in all areas. So while one person may deem a prophecy legitimate, another may not. Discernment by itself, being but one item on the list, is not enough. This is what I meant by personal preferences.

We are faith people right ? so why the sad statment that it probably wont be settled? Where is your faith my friend ?

I could say the same thing in response to your "the matter is settled".

Where is my faith? In God, not in people. This is not to say I have no faith in you as a Christian, but that people can disagree and come to realize that no progress is being made in that disagreement.

 

[Big Moose]

Let me try to explain with an analogy. Looking at the requirements for church leaders, we see a list of characteristics that include integrity, self-discipline, and compassion. Then suppose we are assessing the possibility that a person in our congregation is leadership material. We see that this person has integrity but lacks compassion. Should we consider this person a leader? No, because the list of requirements is "and", not "or". That is, the leader must have all of the qualities, not just some of them.

Likewise, if someone claims to have a prophecy from God, we have a list of requirements, and the list is "and" rather than "or". So if the list item "comes true" is not met, it invalidates the claim to divine prophecy. You gave a list of sorts in the last part of your comment, but it appears that to you this is an "or" list rather than and "and" list. To me, we cannot discard the item "doesn't come true" even if all the other criteria are met. My conviction is that nothing subjective will ever override or contradict what is objective; that is, discernment cannot override an explicit teaching of scripture. And scripture says explicitly that the prophecy must always come true.


I've known people who had no discernment at all, but who claimed to have it in abundance. Various denominations think they each have discernment but clearly they can't all have it in all areas. So while one person may deem a prophecy legitimate, another may not. Discernment by itself, being but one item on the list, is not enough. This is what I meant by personal preferences.


I could say the same thing in response to your "the matter is settled".

Where is my faith? In God, not in people. This is not to say I have no faith in you as a Christian, but that people can disagree and come to realize that no progress is being made in that disagreement.

I think you are missing the point. Some prophecy comes true in stages, little by little. Someone sees the first part, but not the last, will claim them to be false. Some cannot understand what is meant by the prophecy, such as the disciples and others who didn't understand "this temple I will raise up in three days." And then there is prophecy which does not come true in your lifetime.
All these can and have happened, so you have to be careful to not throw the blanket statement on a prophecy and put out the flame of the Spirit. Spirit driven discernment is needed.

 

[Relentless]

I think you are missing the point. Some prophecy comes true in stages, little by little. Someone sees the first part, but not the last, will claim them to be false. Some cannot understand what is meant by the prophecy, such as the disciples and others who didn't understand "this temple I will raise up in three days." And then there is prophecy which does not come true in your lifetime.
All these can and have happened, so you have to be careful to not throw the blanket statement on a prophecy and put out the flame of the Spirit. Spirit driven discernment is needed.

No one is saying to put out the flame of the Spirit.

No amount of discernment can overturn the requirement for prophecy to be fulfilled. But the point about fulfillment is that most of the claimed prophecies today are coming from a multitude of people, none of whom have been recognized as prophets. But more importantly, when they give a specific prophecy with a specific deadline and it passes unfulfilled, that is the mark of a false prophet. Many had claimed that the Rapture would take place in 2011, yet it clearly did not happen. Are we to look for some future fulfillment? Impossible; the deadline of the 2011 prophecy has passed. And if this is not to be considered, then we might as well just blindly accept every prophetic claim... well, of course, if we "discern" that it must await a future fulfillment.

We know Jesus was not a false prophet because he has a 100% accuracy rate so far. Not so for modern day prophets. And if we can brush aside that requirement by saying that future fulfillment remains, in spite of missed deadlines, then we are saying that "must come to pass" isn't ever to be considered, since everything can be fulfilled someday, somehow.

So no, I'm not missing the point at all. But I've run out of ways to get mine across.