Please help my little mind :3

[LanceA]

Understood. But on the other hand...

Yes the Pastor is to serve his flock not the other way around. This doesn't mean that there shouldn't be some sort of organization within the church. I went to a church where members of the congregation were allowed to preach every other weekend and there was hurt feelings because of who was allowed to preach and who wasn't. Just because people go to the same church doesn't mean they agree on everything 100% of the time. This can lead one person one weekend saying one thing and then the next weekend someone else saying something totally different. How does a church manage and control what is taught and ensuring the people stay within the doctrine of that Church?

Lets use this forum as an example. We pretty much all believe the main thing that Jesus is God and he died for our sins. Basic fundamentals are there but when we dive deeper into the bible there are many differences. Just today we have a difference in interpretation on Women Pastors. How does a Church control this when so many people think they have the right interpretation that they claim was given to them by Holy Spirit? I think you would have chaos in that Church and people would leave out of anger, hurt feelings.

 

[Relentless]

Yes the Pastor is to serve his flock not the other way around. This doesn't mean that there shouldn't be some sort of organization within the church. I went to a church where members of the congregation were allowed to preach every other weekend and there was hurt feelings because of who was allowed to preach and who wasn't. Just because people go to the same church doesn't mean they agree on everything 100% of the time. This can lead one person one weekend saying one thing and then the next weekend someone else saying something totally different. How does a church manage and control what is taught and ensuring the people stay within the doctrine of that Church?

Lets use this forum as an example. We pretty much all believe the main thing that Jesus is God and he died for our sins. Basic fundamentals are there but when we dive deeper into the bible there are many differences. Just today we have a difference in interpretation on Women Pastors. How does a Church control this when so many people think they have the right interpretation that they claim was given to them by Holy Spirit? I think you would have chaos in that Church and people would leave out of anger, hurt feelings.

I don't see any organization at all in the NT. Various people had various gifts, and no one was put in charge of anyone else. Even in a couple verses in the last chapter of Hebrews, which have been used as authority proof texts, don't say so in the Greek. Rather, they speak of leaders by example, as people whose behavior is something to emulate. And along with that, there's no need to have a speaker at all. If people were getting competitive about it, the problem lay with their attitude toward this activity. But I think part of that attitude grew from the idea that "the pastor" was a position of importance beyond those of other believers. There is nothing that says we must pick one authoritative human being so that everyone can get along better. Our authority is scripture, not the vessels through whom it may be spoken.

As for agreement, I don't see any improvement in designating one person as the tie-breaker so to speak. Disagreement is why there are so many denominations, so the problem of differences of opinion isn't solved. Why should "the church manage and control" anything or anyone? The scriptures alone speak with authority, and if people disagree on its interpretation, nothing is gained by picking one person whose opinions have authority over others.

Yes, this forum is a good example. But again I ask, why should "a church" control this? Why is it only chaos in a "church" setting and not here? I think this forum is a good illustration of what a "church" or any gathering of believers should be. And if people's feelings get hurt, once again the problem isn't solved by forcing them to defer to the opinions of a designated human authority. This is, to a degree, exactly what the Roman Catholic Church does; they control by claiming human authority to interpret. This is, essentially, brushing aside the Holy Spirit and not trusting him to lead and guide. I do realize that everyone thinks they alone have the Spirit's ear, but we still cannot solve the problem by choosing one person's opinion over others.

 

[LanceA]

Actually I think we hijacked this thread lol. Maybe should allow it to get back on track

 

[Relentless]

Actually I think we hijacked this thread lol. Maybe should allow it to get back on track

Yeah, agree.

 

[Brother Paul]

#1 Yes, Jesus and the Father are One including the Holy Spirit. Three manifestations of the Same. Man (and women) is three parts too - Body, Soul, Spirit - yet one person.

#2 Taking the communion is to do what the word implies, to commune - fellowship. In this case, to remember what Jesus did on the cross for us. I don't go to church and so I buy the unleavened bread (matzah) and some red wine and have my own communion with the Lord, remember His work on the cross. The Jews don't understand, but they do it anyhow: the Matzah bread must be punctured, and baked.

To make wine, you must take grapes and squeeze out the juices and let the sugar turn to vinegar.

So how does this apply to us and the communion?

Jesus was pierced for our sins, John 19:37, Psa 22:16 and was offered vinegar for His thirst, Matt 27:34, Psa 69:21. The Bread of Life died (unleavened bread)!

I would give a big amen to what AB posted here only I would include remembrance of how by His crushing and bruising He poured forth His blood for us....(like squeezed grapes...though I think that was also implied in what AB said)

Also 4nails, God is...the Word/Son (who became incarnate as Jesus) and the Father (together with the Holy Spirit) one God

The Lord bless

 

[Butch5]

I've got 2 *main* questions:

1. John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
Is that in the context of Jesus and God as a single being, or two individuals with a common goal?

2. What is the purpose of partaking in the sacrament, is it vital to the faith? If it is, and I'm not going to church, what can I do about it? Also, regarding the sacrament, are only males (and/or pastors/priests) "authorized" to pass it?

I hope someone can help me with these...

-edit-
sorry I'm not too sure if this is supposed to be posted in the doctrine segment.. :S

The answer to your first questions is they are two individuals with a common goal, they one in purpose, not person.

The second question, it appears you're referring to communion correct? I would suggest partaking in communion as it is communion with Christ. The church isn't told how often to have communion, just to do it in remembrance of the Lord. I would submit Jesus' words.

53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 "For My flesh is food indeed1, and My blood is drink indeed. (Joh 6:53-55 NKJ)

He later said at the last supper that the bread and wine were his body and blood of the new covenant.
And no, it isn't passed only by men as I understand it.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Deuteronomy 18:22 – “When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”

Relentless Hello,
I have a couple of questions for you. They have to do with your thoughts on Prophets and your scripture choice.....

First of all Why did Jonah run from God....What was His answer to God ?
Second... What did Isaiah come to say to Hezekiah ? Who sent Isaiah to deliver this message to Hezekiah? What happened when it was delivered ?
Thank You and have a blessed day
Jim....P.S all but these past 6 years I was a true blue Buckeye too. lol 49 and a half years worth...

 

[Relentless]

Relentless Hello,
I have a couple of questions for you. They have to do with your thoughts on Prophets and your scripture choice.....

First of all Why did Jonah run from God....What was His answer to God ?
Second... What did Isaiah come to say to Hezekiah ? Who sent Isaiah to deliver this message to Hezekiah? What happened when it was delivered ?
Thank You and have a blessed day
Jim....P.S all but these past 6 years I was a true blue Buckeye too. lol 49 and a half years worth...

Hi Jim,

1. Jonah ran because he did not want God to forgive the people of Nineveh. Finally he told them what he was supposed to, which was that God would indeed relent from destroying them if they repented. So when they repented, God did not destroy them (which irritated Jonah).

2. Isaiah told Hezekiah of his impending death, but once again God allowed a change of outcome based on Hezekiah's request.

Of course, the implication you're going after is that not all prophecies come true because God allows for people's changes of heart. Yet more than just the situations you mentioned were prophecies that God indicated could be altered. Yet in modern times, in fact throughout the church age, when has God directly allowed for any changes to the thousands of claims of prophetic words from him, that can be confirmed by anyone but the people claiming to have it? Which part of Daniel's prophecy of the 70 Weeks has come with any conditions, or when has God spoken to say that they will not take place? When can anyone confirm that the many online prophecies of the Tribulation beginning in 2008 were from God, and that God then spoke to each of them and told them there was a delay? This is the issue: so many unsubstantiated claims of prophetic words from God, without God ever saying what the conditions were or explaining why anything was delayed.

Now a question for you: If fulfillment is not necessarily required to prove that someone is a genuine prophet of God, then what do you do with the scripture that says it is a requirement?

 

[3nails+1cross=4GIVEN]

The answer to your first questions is they are two individuals with a common goal, they one in purpose, not person.

The second question, it appears you're referring to communion correct? I would suggest partaking in communion as it is communion with Christ. The church isn't told how often to have communion, just to do it in remembrance of the Lord. I would submit Jesus' words.

53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 "For My flesh is food indeed1, and My blood is drink indeed. (Joh 6:53-55 NKJ)

He later said at the last supper that the bread and wine were his body and blood of the new covenant.
And no, it isn't passed only by men as I understand it.

Thank you! I wasn't sure if I was being clear in the first question, but your answer was what I was looking for; in that I thought they were two beings with a common purpose rather than a trinity model...

And yes, I was talking about the communion, although the churches I've been to called it sacrament so I was more used to calling it as such.. If I'm not wrong though, there needs to be a prayer said before partaking the communion? If so, would one not need a priest/pastor for that? Just curious...

 

[3nails+1cross=4GIVEN]

I would say yes and no to this question. I believe scripture proves that women can teach in a church setting but can't be over men such as a Pastor or deacon. There are great women speakers who aren't in a leadership role and who teach bible studies.

This comes a bit late, but what does it mean that "women can teach in a church setting but can't be over men"? As in there shouldn't be women pastors,or? If they could be in charge of a cell group/bible study group, would that not be a leadership position?

 

[3nails+1cross=4GIVEN]

I would give a big amen to what AB posted here only I would include remembrance of how by His crushing and bruising He poured forth His blood for us....(like squeezed grapes...though I think that was also implied in what AB said)

Also 4nails, God is...the Word/Son (who became incarnate as Jesus) and the Father (together with the Holy Spirit) one God

The Lord bless

hello, regarding the last bit, does that allude to a trinity? Sorry I'm just confused..

 

[LanceA]

This comes a bit late, but what does it mean that "women can teach in a church setting but can't be over men"? As in there shouldn't be women pastors,or? If they could be in charge of a cell group/bible study group, would that not be a leadership position?

Leadership in the Church such as Elders and Pastors

 

[Relentless]

This comes a bit late, but what does it mean that "women can teach in a church setting but can't be over men"? As in there shouldn't be women pastors,or? If they could be in charge of a cell group/bible study group, would that not be a leadership position?

One of the problems with the belief that women, solely because they are women, cannot do certain things, is that the boundary lines are drawn in a bazillion different ways, depending on whom you ask. Whenever we start saying "God says I can do anything but you are restricted due to your flesh", it opens the door to much confusion and debate over where to draw the lines. It also makes God "look on the flesh" before even considering the heart. In addition, it violates clear commands against any part of the Body wielding authority over any other part. Service is mutual and horizontal among believers.

Jesus said that wherever two or three gathered in his name, there he would be. So defining a "church setting" by the NT means any time at least two believers get together to discuss spiritual things. But history and tradition have turned "church setting" into a business organizational chart. So then people argue over who is allowed to do what... a teaching of division. When Jesus found out that his disciples were arguing over who would be greatest in the coming kingdom, he rebuked them and told them that the greatest must be the least, and that the hierarchy of the world was opposite to the kingdom of God. That being the case, those considered leaders are to be in the place of no authority, no prestige. So for anyone to say "No, you cannot be the lowest servant because of your flesh" is to completely misunderstand what Jesus taught. Nobody tries to keep other people from being lowly servants, so the fact that some people would tell other people they cannot serve as Christian leaders exposes the wrong attitude toward leadership. If they know it is the lowest place, they will not fight to protect it.

Authority is all vested in Jesus, as he stated in the Great Commission. The Bible is authoritative because it comes from God. So no human being has had authority since the apostles died. Scripture tells leaders to lead by example, not dictate. And no woman is barred, because she is a woman, from being a good example, from rightly dividing the word of truth, or from any lowly position of service. And when it comes to teaching, surely God would not tell women to teach the most vulnerable and gullible (children and other women), if women were somehow defective and deceivable just because they're women.

Women are adult human beings and not restricted or in need of the oversight of men. The proof texts used to say otherwise ignore the overarching principles of humility and mutuality of service. If God calls a woman to teach, no man can say the Holy Spirit made a mistake, and no man can justify conceding that women can teach children without saying God wants the deceivable to teach the vulnerable. Whatever spiritual gift a woman receives, she must use. And no "role playing", restricting, or personal preference can stop her. If a traditional church won't accept a woman's gifts of teaching and preaching, then it's their loss, and she will take her gifts to whomever is receptive.

I am fully aware that what I've written is seen by many as some kind of rebellion, or lust for power (!), or disrespect for the Word. None of that is true however, and I have many writings to back up what I believe. I do respond briefly whenever I see this topic arise, but for in-depth discussion I only point people to my writings, rather than engage in prolonged debate.

 

[Butch5]

Thank you! I wasn't sure if I was being clear in the first question, but your answer was what I was looking for; in that I thought they were two beings with a common purpose rather than a trinity model...

And yes, I was talking about the communion, although the churches I've been to called it sacrament so I was more used to calling it as such.. If I'm not wrong though, there needs to be a prayer said before partaking the communion? If so, would one not need a priest/pastor for that? Just curious...

Communion is called a sacrament but there are others too, that's why I asked. When you ask if there has to be a priest of pastor I'm not certain what you mean. The early Christians had pastors that were appointed by the apostles or faithful men. If you're asking should there be a leader or shepard I think it would help. If you're asking if an official church sanctioned pastor or priest have to be there, I don't think so.

 

[CCW95A]

This comes a bit late, but what does it mean that "women can teach in a church setting but can't be over men"? As in there shouldn't be women pastors,or? If they could be in charge of a cell group/bible study group, would that not be a leadership position?

I am a man, and I am not the head of any women, except my wife. Paul was teaching about a husband and wife situations, and not that men have authority over women, because we don't. In all cases where Paul address men and women, he is referring to husband and wife team. The wife is to submit to her husband in the same way Jesus submits to his Father. Jesus is not inferior to his Father as they are both co-equal. Jesus has no authority over his Father any more than a woman has authority over her husband. In fact the Bible tells us....

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Jesus Christ is the head over the man, the same as he the head over the women because there is no male, female in the Lord.

 

[LanceA]

I am a man, and I am not the head of any women, except my wife. Paul was teaching about a husband and wife situations, and not that men have authority over women, because we don't. In fact the Bible tells us....

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Jesus Christ is the head over the man, the same as he the head over the women because there is no male, female in the Lord.

This is equal heirs in Christ and is talking about a spiritual relationship with Christ. God still assigned roles in marriage and in other aspects of life and society and these remain unchanged.

 

[CCW95A]

This is equal heirs in Christ and is talking about a spiritual relationship with Christ. God still assigned roles in marriage and in other aspects of life and society and these remain unchanged.

Were there any "women" in the Bible that spoke in Church?

ACTS 2:16-18
16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,
I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons
AND YOUR DAUGHTERS shall prophesy, and your
young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream
dreams:
18And on my servants AND ON MY HANDMAIDENS
I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall
prophesy.


1 CORINTHIANS 11:5
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her
head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all
one as if she were shaven.

Prophesying is done in a Church setting.

ACTS 1:13,14
13And when they were come in, they went up into an upper
room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and
Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew,
James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas
the brother of James.
14These all continued with one accord in prayer and sup
plication, WITH THE WOMEN, and Mary the mother of
Jesus, and with his brethren.

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The 120 in the upper room were in a Church setting, and they ALL spoke in tongues along with the women.

LUKE 2:36-38
36And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter
of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age,
and had lived with an husband seven years from her
virginity;
37And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years,
which departed not from the temple, but served God with
fastings and prayers night and day.
38And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise
unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked
for redemption in Jerusalem.

This lady prophesied in a Church setting.

ACTS 18:26
26 And he [Apollos] began to speak boldly in the
synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard,
they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way
of God more perfectly.

Here we find a "woman" teaching a man (Apollos)

Psa 68:11 The Lord gives the word; the women who announce the news are a great host: (ESV)

Some of the most "anointed" preachers I have ever heard were women. In fact the very first preacher of the new Testament was a woman...Mary...He is risen!!

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Now a question for you: If fulfillment is not necessarily required to prove that someone is a genuine prophet of God, then what do you do with the scripture that says it is a requirement?

Hi Relentless,
I am not saying that this scripture was not valid, "but I am saying" it should not be the only way used to check this out.

 

[LanceA]

Were there any "women" in the Bible that spoke in Church?

ACTS 2:16-18
16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,
I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons
AND YOUR DAUGHTERS shall prophesy, and your
young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream
dreams:
18And on my servants AND ON MY HANDMAIDENS
I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall
prophesy.


1 CORINTHIANS 11:5
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her
head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all
one as if she were shaven.

Prophesying is done in a Church setting.

ACTS 1:13,14
13And when they were come in, they went up into an upper
room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and
Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew,
James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas
the brother of James.
14These all continued with one accord in prayer and sup
plication, WITH THE WOMEN, and Mary the mother of
Jesus, and with his brethren.

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The 120 in the upper room were in a Church setting, and they ALL spoke in tongues along with the women.

LUKE 2:36-38
36And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter
of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age,
and had lived with an husband seven years from her
virginity;
37And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years,
which departed not from the temple, but served God with
fastings and prayers night and day.
38And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise
unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked
for redemption in Jerusalem.

This lady prophesied in a Church setting.

ACTS 18:26
26 And he [Apollos] began to speak boldly in the
synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard,
they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way
of God more perfectly.

Here we find a "woman" teaching a man (Apollos)

Psa 68:11 The Lord gives the word; the women who announce the news are a great host: (ESV)

Some of the most "anointed" preachers I have ever heard were women. In fact the very first preacher of the new Testament was a woman...Mary...He is risen!!

Not going to go back and forth on a subject that won't change your mind or my mind on this. Doesn't change salvation and what is really important and that being Jesus

 

[Relentless]

Hi Relentless,
I am not saying that this scripture was not valid, "but I am saying" it should not be the only way used to check this out.

What other way could be used, that doesn't invalidate it?