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Please Explain 1 John 5:17

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Jake, Dec 3, 2013.

  1. Hey guys,

    Was just wondering if someone could explain the following bit of scripture to me. I have read some explanations online & believe I know what it means although would like your input on it too.

    1 John 5:17 - “All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.”

    Thanks everyone
    Blessings
     
  2. At first glance verse 16 and 17 sound like solid Arminian scripture teaching falling from grace (which I believe). Making the explanation simply that God will forgive us 7 x 70 times a day for sincere repentance. When we continue in sin with no repentance we enter death. Example... for a Christian to think of adultery is bad, yet something easy to repent of as it is not a depth of rebellion. But for a Christian to commit the act of adultery consistently, takes a depth of rebellion / grieving / cursing the Holy Spirit where sincere repentance is simply not possible = death.

    However, when looking at verse 18 it says 'anyone born of God does not continue to sin' and 'One who was born of God keeps them safe' We get a case for OSAS and Calvinism. I guess here a person believing OSAS could still sanely state that death = spiritual death, which is not our end. Rather entering a period of chastisement.

    As an Arminian I would say that 'anyone born of God does not continue to sin' is saying that to sin is against our nature which is why staying in extremities of it is unacceptable. As long as we are 'abiding in Christ' John 15:4 we are fine.

    It seems that many scriptures draw a fine line between 'OSAS if truly saved' and losing salvation after continued unrepentant / grieving of the Holy Spirit. God can surely forgive and understand the confusion amongst us :).
     
  3. (1 John 5:17)Every kind of wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.”


    Any wrongdoing/sin committed by a spiritual person/one who has been given the knowledge of the truth, is deadly.


    (John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”


    (Acts 5:1-11) The Fraud of Ananias and Sapphira


    A person who has shown Jesus he or she loves him by living his Word has told the Holy Spirit that they love God. If such a person deliberately commits sin they are blaspheming the Holy Spirit and there is no forgiveness for such an act.

    (Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
     
  4. The are different "grades" of sins.
    The Catholic church rates them as mortal or venial.
    As examples, a venial sin would be to be angry with your brother because you're in a foul mood.
    A mortal sin would be to murder your brother.
    KingJ's examples above are equally good.

    Mortal sins lead to Hell.
    Venial sins lead to chastisement.
     
  5. Didn't we just go through this same topic a few weeks ago?
     
  6. This is a forum with new people joining all the time, is it not?


    Also this subject is the most important one involving our Christian walk. Sin is the reason Jesus came.


    (1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”
     
  7. It is, but not one person in this thread is new. In fact, one joined just after I did, and the other has been here longer than me. I guess I just get tired of hearing the same old arguments rehashed over and over again when I know that there will never be agreement. I'm not stepping in as a moderator, just wondering why we need to reopen such a very specific topic.
     
  8. That is news to me that this site has so few new members. I wonder if that is because the site does not come across as safe? I have wondered often if it is this site where my computer bugs are coming from.


    Yesterday Norton my virus detector told me this site was dangerous, and I accessed it anyway.


    Have others had this expierance, of do you know why Norton warned me?
     
  9. We have quite a few members actually, just the ones in this topic right now are all seasoned. They aren't new people, so it isn't a matter of new people introducing new topics. I don't really care, honestly. In fact, far too much has been said about it. I was just curious. I don't want to have three or four topics open that are just copies. Once a point has been made, it doesn't need to be continually debated and fought over. Either we convince others that we are actually looking out for their best interest and built trust so that they will believe what we say, or we are just slinging words at each other hoping something sticks. There is a time for both approaches I suppose.

    I don't know why Norton would have warned you. I know that the code is safe, but there is an ad service that Jeff uses to offset the cost of running the forum software that I don't have direct access to. However, being a Christian site, it is entirely likely that disgruntled ex-posters and even external trolls and spammers have marked our site with the intention of scaring people away.
     
  10. Thank you, and you may be right about what people will do with Christian sites.


    As far as this thread goes, I did not start it, but it is in my opinion the most important subject to be discussed.


    My reason to discuss is not to convince anyone. I don’t believe that is possible. Only God can convince people about sin.
     
  11. Arm-a-What Brother King? Could you explain your definition of Death, used in the sense that all sin leads to death?
    I have looked at the Calvinist V.S the Arminian positions. OSAS is not a Arminian position, however after examining the Arminian belief it's a bit underhanded in a way. I don't like the Calvinist position either though, but I have to admit it would make more sense if it were actually true.

    What John say?

    John said if you see a brother sin, then pray for them.

    Rom_6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Every single sin is death. All of them, and in fact the payment for any sin is death. Death is the opposite what Jesus came to give us as He came to give life and give it abundantly. (John 10:10) Jesus said I am the way, the truth and Life. (John 14:16)

    Life that is opposite of what Jesus came to give us is living under the death.

    Rom_5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Serving the Lord produces life, in our life. Not serving the Lord produces things in our life to die. It's called the curse of the law, and the curse was designed to eventually destroy us. Jesus has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us (Gal 3:15) and (Deut 28 last half with list of curses)

    So we can obey the Lord unto Right standing with God and blessings (Righteousness) or we can obey sin which produces cursed things in our life or death.

    What did John say again?

    If any man see his brother sin (a) sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is (a) sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
    (1Jn 5:16-19)

    1) There is sin that is not unto death. That would be all of them but one here.
    2) There is a sin unto death, John said don't pray for that one.
    3) Who is born of God does not continue to miss the mark. (Sinneth literally means to miss the mark, or stay off the path of righteousness "Thayer") In other Words a Person Born of God the seed remains the person will want to get back on track.
    4) Sin gives place to the devil to kill, Steal or destroy. This is why obedience to sin, makes Satan your temporary Lord by whom you serve and Satan will take a shot at you once you give him that place. Don't give that rat a place!!!!

    Since we know better to take One scripture and make any conclusion or doctrine we need to compare line upon line to find out what this sin is that John was talking about. We also just don't take part of a chapter and not read the rest. I know everyone follows this rule, but for the new people in the Lord I thought I would mention it.

    Example: Did Angels have sex with humans and produce Giants? We have ONE scripture in Gen 6 that would make it apparently so, but we don't have any other scripture to compare that says the same thing. Circumstantial evidence by our interpretation does not make is so either. We need ONE more witness in the Word of God that says the EXACT SAME THING to make it a doctrine of truth. There are Zero more scriptures that give that information so we file it off as interesting, but not fact.

    John said..............................

    Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
    (1Jn 5:21)

    John mentions ONE SIN and warns about it. Is this the sin John was speaking about? It's a sin only a believer can commit as John said if you see a "Brother sin"

    For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
    (Heb 6:4-6)

    Here is one sin, like John spoke of. Is it turning away from Jesus, despite the Spirit of Grace (Holy Spirit) to serve another god? Like turning from Jesus to Allah? Once the person understands what they are leaving behind? Is this it?

    Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    Here is the sin again............. It's wilfully, it's after the person knows the truth. What sin is that?

    Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    No other sin matches this but to deny Jesus, deny the blood covenant, deny the Holy Spirit and all the gifts and to go to serve another god. That is to willfully turn to Allah, Budda, New Age, whatever to get power and help from another source and to worship another god.
    Anyone that wants to leave God and counts what Jesus did not good enough, John said don't pray for them.

    Michael.
     
  12. "Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    Here is the sin again............. It's wilfully, it's after the person knows the truth. What sin is that?"

    I would like to answer you question. If after one receives the knowledge of the truth, and then deliberately commits any sin; that is the end of that person’s quest. He or she will never enter the kingdom of God. That is truly death.



    (1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”


    A sinner is of the devil.


    (1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”
     
  13. Your mixing this up!!
    (I can help)​

    John said ONE sin, you say "ANY" sin. Your mixing scriptures up here and putting together things that don't match. I can help though.

    If it were true that no sacrifice remains for sin we commit with full knowledge of the truth that it is sin, then Nobody here is going to make it. Everyone has done something they knew was sin and did it anyway.

    God is faithful and just to forgives us our sins if we repent.

    I can not repent if I did not know I committed sin or had the truth about a sin. If I don't know stealing is wrong, it never occurs to me to ask forgiveness about stealing until the Lord reveals that to me.

    If I have knowledge of stealing, yet steal then I know I need to repent for stealing.

    So it can't be like your saying, or else the Blood does not cover, and we make it by perfect works after we accept Jesus. Salvation by works can never be the answer.

    (1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

    Let's get a better and more consistent translation with the Greek.

    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    (1Jn 1:9)

    Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    (1Co 6:9-10)

    Adikos= Unrighteous (Greek Adjective)
    Adikia= Unrighteousness (Greek Female Noun)

    Those living in (adikos) Shall not inherit the Kingdom of God, being a Greek Adjective, we are given the list of things that may cover what Adikos is speaking about, since it's a Greek Adjective that needs clarification or can stand on it's own.

    Those that Confess their acts of unrighteousness (Adikia) Greek female noun as in General doing lots of stuff bad. God is faithful and just to forgive and clean us from all those acts of unrighteousness.

    So Paul could not be talking about just committing a sin with knowledge where you don't make it to Heaven. That would be twisting scriptures to come to that conclusion.

    What did Paul say?

    Paul said those doing these acts of unrighteousness will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

    Since we already know that
    Basileia (Kingdom) is a Greek Female noun So it possibly can't define it's own place and a Greek Female noun can never be a place. and that Theos or (God) is a male noun and not a place but a deity. We know Paul was not talking about a place that we don't inherit.


    This should clear things up.

    Blessings.
     
  14. My God who has made a home in me always keeps me safe from Satan/sin.


    Jesus defeated Satan/sin. He did not fail in what he came to do.


    People have accepted Satan’s lies. Satan tells people that everyone still sin, and people welcome his lie.


    God gave man all the grace he needs to defeat Satan/sin, but man on the whole has refused God’s grace.


    Most people have no idea of how the Holy Spirit actually teaches, and gives one the grace to live the whole Word of God.


    (John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”


    There is no sin in God’s home.


    A sinner is of the devil.


    (1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”


    No! A spiritual Christian will not sin, and if one is evil enough to commit a sin there is no repentance.
     
  15. I guess despite scripture, I am honored to meet a believer that never sins. This would be a first for me. I am glad to meet you. :)
     
  16. You have not met me. You also don’t know scripture.


    (1 John 3:4-6) “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”


    (1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”
     
  17. Thankyou all for the input on this verse. Yes it is always very important to look at the whole context of the passage before examining any scripture from close.

    Banarenth: Apologies mate! Yes I certainly am not a new member although didn't think about doing a search before posting this thread! Just wanted to get down to the bottom of this quickly!

    The bible says in Romans 3:23 - "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

    Also Romans 8:1 - "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

    To fall short of the Glory of God is to sin and ALL of us have done it. Now 2 Corinthians 5:17 - "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new"

    Sin is inevitable because we are just human and that's why the Lord's blood was shed for our sins. Now being and abiding in Christ is the key here John 15:4. As long as we are abiding in Christ although we sin, it can't and will not have dominion on our lives. 1 John 1:9 "But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness"

    Now I ain't talking about "continuous deliberate sin" because that is a different story hence why I brought up this thread.

    Thanks again for the input everyone - Having a bit of a revelation here myself through the power of the Holy Spirit.

    God Bless

     
  18. Michael,

    You were precise when you pointed out that the only sin that John say's not to pray for them is when they have been in Christ and then go another way. That is the exact meaning of "No other sacrifice for sins" in that verse. Jesus sacrifice is the ONLY and will be the ONLY way for the redemption of sins. There is NO other way!!

    I found a bit of a prompt & confirmation when I read this:

    http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/hebrews-10-26.html


    However,

    This is not to say that we should deliberately keep on sinning with other sins still knowing the truth because there is a consequence for every sin. Then again there is NO believer that I know who has the truth in them and doesn't deliberately sins - if that makes sense.

    "All of us have fallen short of the Glory of God"

    God personally deals with us and convicts us when we do wrong through his Holy Spirit! Amen! So grateful for him :)

    Blessings in Christ
     
  19. You've never met a believer that doesn't deliberately sin? I can understand that many believe that everyone sins because they count unconscious thoughts, or moments of weakness as sin, but to say that every believe you have ever met deliberately rebels against God is a very, very disturbing statement to me. Such rebellion cannot be tolerated or excused under any circumstances. To know something is a sin, and to still do it intentionally does not show a changed life or a repentant heart. That is showing a person who is living in rebellion to God intentionally. I'm not sure if you meant to word that differently, but as it stands, I find it rather disturbing.
     
  20. Thank you Brother Jake :)
    You found the same stuff I have studied out, and only really looked into this because of the OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) doctrine. It's a very interesting Doctrine because I can take some Greek and prove both. I think the point is to Obey the Lord and get help if stuck in some sin right away.

    Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    1 Co 6:9-10

    All that Paul mentioned are titles. Not someone that committed (A) sin but someone that is titled that way. A thief keeps stealing, and Drunk keeps drinking and so on.
    None inherit the Kingdom of God.

    This is what you described as
    Give the devil a place, serve sin is serving the master of sin and so on. It's what Paul stated.
    Inherit Kingdom of God is literally translated.......... Will not have promise or Reign with God and have no authority as a son of God.

    Thayer Definition: Kingdom
    1) royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
    1a) not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom

    I have blown it and rebellion is bad, it removes our fellowship with God and it gives the devil a place. To sin when you know better can cost you, and cost you more than what you thought you would pay.
    So anyone practicing sin, removes themselves from the right to the promises and makes them powerless as a priest, King unto the Lord.
    Thank you for the Holy Spirit and Amen to that.

    What happens is a person that knows something is wrong, does it anyway, is rebellion. God is faithful, the Holy Spirit throws up the stop signs. If a person makes excuses............... "Well, God knows we love each other anyway." "It's not really stealing, the government pays for it." The Holy Spirit stops prompting about the sin, the person becomes self deceived into believing a lie and they are in trouble at this point.

    I have had more than one person tell me they know they are not suppose to be with that guy, but................ ends up marrying them and disregarding the first thing they knew was right. It never ends well.


     

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