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Persistence : Do we need to bug God?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Big Moose, Dec 31, 2014.

  1. Is Jesus saying we need to bug God long term to get results?
    The Parable of the Persistent Widow in Luke 18

    18 Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart, 2 saying: “There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man. 3 Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, ‘Get justice for me from my adversary.’ 4 And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, ‘Though I do not fear God nor regard man, 5 yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.’”

    6 Then the Lord said, “Hear what the unjust judge said. 7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? 8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”
    Silk likes this.
  2. The Greek says "Ask, ask, and keep on asking and you will receive." But there are qualifications

    a) Ask according to God's will as much as is possible (predominately needs not wants) not just asking to be burned upon your own lusts
    b) Believe, not doubting, that you will receive...KNOWING He who promised is faithful
    c) Ask with genuine thanksgiving whatever the answer to that prayer (yes, no, later)...trusting that Father knows best...
    d) If and when possible pray His own words back to Him since His word does not return to Him void but like the rain which causes the flowers to
    grow will accomplish what He had sent it forth to perform

    I am sure this is not an exhaustive list and His will will always be done even when it is merely something He is allowing in this case....

    So I say it is okay to pray more than once for the same matter (JMHO)

    KingJ, Silk and Big Moose says Amen and like this.
  3. 7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? 8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

    "Though He bears long with them...but will avenge them speedily." Not sure how those can both be true. Is it that there needs to be time for enough evidence to accumulate before vengeance/justice is warranted?

    Then Jesus wonders in the third person whether the Son of Man will find faith on the earth. Seems He wasn't sure that would be the case. Or it was just an effort to show His disappointment at the current faith levels.
  4. This begs the question: Why pray for His will to be done, when it will be done one way or the other? Is it in hopes of being included in His will? Why pray about our (in the grand scheme of things) petty lives, wants and desires. I know He loves us at a basic level, enough to suffer and die.
    I guess it boils down to - do we have influence over what becomes the Father's will? I believe we do to some extent, otherwise what purpose does it matter is two or more agree on earth on something.
  5. This begs the question: Why pray for His will to be done, when it will be done one way or the other?

    But this is not the case with His creatures to whom He has given a degree of free will...I am sure it was not "the will of God" that Satan rebel and take a third of the angelic host with him....the Bible tells us that "God wills that all men everywhere repent" yet all will not. You know what I mean. When God gave Adam a degree of "dominion" (rulership, control) over all the things on the earth it was a true dominion (as an underlord with Him as the ultimate authority)....

    When Satan said to Jesus Luke 4:5 "And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time,6 and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will.7 If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours”, it was truly his to give...Adam bowed to his lordship transferring dominion to him who is now the god of this world....

    God foreknew this would happen but it was not His irresistible plan....of course He would have preferred Adam and Eve choose to obey...but they would not. The idea of being a god unto themselves (Genesis 3:5) appealed to their pride/vanity and they liked the notion of deciding good and evil for themselves (doing what was right in THEIR own eyes)....

    God's will is not always irresistible though when He implements it or imposes it it is...

    So when you say "I believe we do to some extent, otherwise what purpose does it matter is two or more agree on earth on something" I can only agree.
    KingJ and Big Moose say Amen and like this.
  6. Interesting thread. I think Eve chose to eat because she was deceived but I think she wanted to be like God because she loved Him. Not out of pride so much. I've also find myself leaning to Adam making his choice out of love for Eve.

    I pray for households now so it includes all that the person named loves. I also pray for households because of the whole Abraham, Lot and Sodom & Gomorroh judgement. In reading James, Brother of Jesus by Eisenman (http://www.amazon.com/James-Brother-Jesus-Unlocking-Christianity/dp/014025773X ) I was fascinated that many in ancient times (including Josephus) felt that God waited to pass the diaspora judgement against Israel until James, regarded as the righteous by many in and out of Israel was taken out of the picture (62 AD). I think there is something to this righteousness. Through belief in Christ, we have righteousness. There are other examples of households. Rehab's household was saved altho the rest of Jericho was burnt to the ground - all others slain -no plunder taken. Joseph's household was saved from famine.

    When I pray now I pray that all household eyes, ears, hearts, minds and souls be open and kept open so they/we will all see clearly God's infinte love for us and more clearly see His Will for us and for the world. I don't ask for vengeance or justice because all bills will be settled come the 2nd Great appearing. I kinda see praying as a reminder to self of all these things and to show God that I know and have not forgotten. Persistence means you keep remembering.
    Big Moose likes this.
  7. I pray that all household eyes, ears, hearts, minds and souls be open and kept open so they/we will all see clearly God's infinte love for us and more clearly see His Will for us and for the world.

    Big Moose and Silk say Amen and like this.
  8. Something that made me think a lot! Great question.. But few things which we need to consider before making any blanket assumptions.. we should look at what the widow asked for. She was asking for justice. It was not her "desires". She was asking for "justice". The same would hold good in our prayers. We are not ask to bug God with our desires. We are to pray persistently for God's "revealed will" to be accomplished. Praying for a promotion at work is different from praying for a sincere heart that will server the employee faithfully. God is telling we should pray persistently for the latter. The reason is not for us to change God's mind. The reason for the God's will to be engraved in our hearts. The more we ask, the more we will realize how much we need it. When it fully gets into our heart, Lord will grant it. So the point is not to ask why pray when anyway God is going to get His will accomplished. It is more for us to understand His will.
    KingJ, Big Moose and Silk says Amen and like this.
  9. Great comment. I didn't look at it from the "asking for justice" angle. Thanks
  10. The question should be CAN we bug God......... The answer would be no.... Not only is His love infinite but His patience also. His attributes are not things God does they are what He is. If He were less than 100% of any of them He would not be God.

    Psa 147:5

    Great is our Lord and abundant in strength;
    His understanding is fninfinite.

    KingJ and Silk say Amen and like this.
  11. Rofl. Are we there yet?
    Ph8th likes this.
  12. Great answer Pete....God is only limited to His own self-imposed limitations (like when He has chosen to remember our sins)
  13. I believe long term prayer / pleading is needed when we are far from God / knowing His will. Moses pleaded short term in Ex 32 for God to spare the Jews and God did Ex 32:14.

    If Moses did not plead would God have relented? Was it God's will to destroy them and Moses changed His will? I believe God is VERY complex and we CANNOT grasp Him. He has a will and then a greater will and then an even greater will. His will was to destroy the Jews for the golden calf. His greater will was to honor Moses's request because Moses was someone who respected, trusted, pleased and obeyed Him. God's relationship with Moses > God relationship / care / interest / hatred for the Jews sin.

    I liked the devil example above. The devil rebelled after He had been entrusted by God with so much. It was God's will to give him gifts. It was never in God / His will to set him up for a fall. The devil could have asked to sit temporarily on God's seat and God would have allowed Him. But the devil wanted God's seat. It reminds me a lot of healing preachers who want the power of God over God.

    Our prayers are a reflection of our heart condition. Anyone praying ''thy will be done'' after their request has the right heart condition. Anyone saying ''I believe it and therefore it will be so / or I claim it'', I doubt God even hears the prayer. It is just really raw common sense. God is very good. Our lives and happiness do concern Him. Like a good Father He wants us to be happy and have our prayers answered / grow in trust that He cares for us. But He is not dumb. He knows the heart behind every prayer request on a level we cannot comprehend.
    Ravindran and Silk say Amen and like this.
  14. So, then, what of Psalm 106:15
    "And He gave them their request
    But sent leanness to their soul."

    How many times have we experienced this in our own life... We go on and on and on and on and on to God.... He finally relents and gives it to us - and it turns out to be *Not* what we expected.....

    This is why it's so important to pray always that God's will be done... Not what I want, but YOUR will be done!

    More and more - I find myself asking God for clarity... If You don't want this for me, let me understand so I can stop wringing my hands, accept it, and move on....

    Silk likes this.
  15. I saw this just today and posted it for someone else, but I think it is so helpful in this situation!

  16. Pray over and over and God may Relent our will to His will?
    (When personally asking for something)

    NO, NO, NO,NO and NO.
    God Does not change his will according to begging, or pleading. That is serious unbelief.

    Unjust Judge
    What the women do? She came in and stopped everything everyone else was doing. She was adamant and bold. She said Avenge me of mine advasaries!!!
    The Judge would not for awhile and went back to his bed chamber thinking. The judge said to himself. This women weary me, and "LEAST" (If I don't do this, then this will happen) by her continually coming I better grant her what she wants.

    The women came one time, the judge did not want her back.

    Jesus said God's folks cry day and night........... Crying, not being bold and expecting an answer right now. Over and over crying. Jesus said God bears with this nonesense, but will help them. Will He find faith on earth though? Crying and begging is not faith, it's not pleasing to the Lord at all.

    1Jn 5:14 kjva And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

    Here is your issue. We need to know God's will "BEFORE" praying. You can't expect anything from someone if you don't know what they think about it.

    Mar 11:24 kjva Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

    Now if you already have recieved something, you don't continue asking for it. Unbelief, and disobedience to scripture is why there is so much defeat and prayer failure today.

    Eph 5:17 amp Therefore do not be vague and thoughtless and foolish, but understanding and firmly grasping what the will of the Lord is.

    Here is the issue. Not taking the time, consideration and care to seek God and find out His will. Just praying and hoping something takes hold.

    Prayer for others

    Paul said I "CEASE" not to pray for you. People's lives change, and constant things are introduced to them every day. We continue to pray for others in faith. It's something we are not personally expecting, but empowering their lives.

    This worked for me when I was a baby needing Milk. It can get you in trouble, even dead. Ask Balaam, it cost him his life. I have seen lives destroyed using your method.

    You know the answer the first time. Every time. If you don't have 100% peace about something, then don't go after it. Not knowing of God wants you to have something is not faith. It's doubting.

    What did Paul say, He who doubts and eats is in sin.

    We don't pray God's will be done. We should know that before Asking. This is why James said any lack wisdom, ask God. Wisdom is right there.

    This women we know was going to marry this guy. I said no, by the Spirit of the Lord. I knew it would end up horrible. She sat at my table and said, "I know I am suppose to leave this guy alone"

    What she do? Just like Balaam, she kept asking, and asking. Finally she is hearing, "Go marry this guy, serve God together."

    Just like BAlaam. She over rode what she knew was right from the start.

    It ended OK, The guy only beat her and had his hands around her neck a few times. She escaped alive and everything healed.

    Time to grow up Brother. We don't want to stay children, or be natural led, allowing fleeces and events to determine if it's God's will for something or not.
  17. This brings up Abraham's pleading with the Lord over the city of Sodom. Abraham seems to be negotiating with the Lord and trying to strike a deal to be able to save Lot and his family. The text indicates that the Lord adjusted His position on what constituted deserving destruction. You can't explain it away with "God knew ahead of time...". The text clearly says that He, the Lord, will go see if the situation there is as bad as the outcry He has heard.
  18. Let's look at the specifics of Jesus saying here....

    Notice in this case, the judge does not regard Man... This was a REQUIREMENT of a Judge... It was a GOOD thing that he did not regard Man.... My reading is that he had ALREADY decided against her based on the merits of the case before him - and had decided against her........ He had done his RESPONSIBILITY as a Judge....

    Notice that Jesus then declares the judge Unjust - WHY? Because he let himself be swayed by the constant annoyance of this widow and changed his mind - allowing her to be avenged when it was not merited by the actual specifics of the case! He was NOT supposed to be swayed by this - he was to judge righteously only based on the merits of the case.....

    So... Here you have a spiteful widow taking out her anger, jealousy, and spite on somebody who doesn't deserve it - and the Judge finally relents and goes along with it because she annoys him too much.....

    Then WE are compared to this widow... That God has no basis for avenging us because we are getting what we deserve... But yet - we cry out to Him and he avenges us anyway - though we do not deserve it....

    I can name off at least a half dozen instances in my own life where God has done this (outside of Salvation).... Where He acted on my behalf - though I did not deserve His help because my own actions landed me where I ended up.....

    The thing that should terrify us about this sort of action is the lesson in the parable of Lazarus the Begger....
    "In your life you received your good things and Lazarus his evil things. Now he is comforted and you are punished"....

    Do you want all your good things HERE?
  19. #20 Big Moose, Jan 28, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2015
    Interesting take. A key is that the judge does not regard God or man. He is not interested in justice, only that he not be hassled. I think the first and last verses contain the purpose for the parable.
    First, Jesus is encouraging all to pray often and have confidence in God. The last, He indicates God is faithful to see to justice, but will those actions by God on our behalf translate into any real faith? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe, i.e. have confidence in God.
    The "what have you done for me lately" believers are too easily swayed by life's ups and downs.
    Build your house on the Rock and stand on the promises.

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