Pauls thorn. The facts

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by The Word or nothing, Dec 23, 2014.

  1. I decided to write this, as in an other thread. It was claimed that God gives His children sickness for what ever reason.
    The main problem with this cliam is people see something and then come to a concusion.
    This is the problem verse. "there was given to me a thorn in the flesh,"
    Now I will need a little time to put together what I need to prove this is an afront to God.

    So the last two threads I started were closed down because they were getting hot.
    So I would ask at the start. If you are going to get involved in this thread. Then please obey all the rules as I did in the other two threads. I dont get hot or btherd about anything you would say to me.
    The other thing I will ask if you get involde please dont bring you opinions I dont want or care for what anyone thinks. I will quote the relivant scripture and we must remember.
    Revalation 22:18-19

    18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    So do not add anything scripture doesnt say and you will not go far wrong.
    also remember that the numbers Verses and chapter is not in the origanl scripture it does end when, The theologens say it does. I wil break down the verses tonight when I get home from Road To Recovery Programme, I am involved in.

    (Colossians 1:24-29)

    16I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. 17That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. 18Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also. 19For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. 20For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face. 21I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also. 22Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. 23Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. 24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. 25Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. 28Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?

    30If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities. 31The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not. 32In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me: 33And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.

    Paul's Revelation

    1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

    Paul's Thorn and God's Grace

    7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
  2. Hey Brother, you posted lots of scriptures, but did not really conclude what the point was. I understand some irratation at the start of the post with folks thinking God put the whammy on Paul, then said no to healing Paul. So God must want some sick and suffering because His Grace is sufficient.

    Am I misreading what your trying to get across?

    Also, there is no problem with any scriptures. We are the problem. I use to say this scripture was problematic, but the Lord corrected me. We are problematic, not the Lord's Word.

    What was the Thorn?

    Paul tells us. A messenger. Who sent the thorn? Paul tells us, Satan, it was Satans Messenger.

    What do messengers do? Spread messages to people, real simple.

    What was Paul's Issue?

    The messenger kicked the slats from underneath Paul with it's own message to the people stiring up the people against Paul's Message of the gospel.

    Why did Paul use the Word Thorn for a Messenger?

    Real simple, Paul is quoting OT. The thorn is a people who hinders the things of God. (Num 33:55) (Jos 23:13) (Jdg 2:3)

    2Sa 23:6 kjva But the sons of Belial shall be all of them as thorns thrust away, because they cannot be taken with hands:

    Paul knew the OT like the back of his hand, He often quoted parts of it.

    What did Paul do Wrong?

    Paul tells us. It's what we all do wrong. Go into a situation under our own wisdom and knowledge, thinking we can handle something without factoring in the Anointing or God's help. This is what Paul is teaching us here.

    Why did not Jesus answer Paul's prayer to remove the Messenger?

    Jesus already answered that prayer at the Cross. Jesus did not say no to Paul. Jesus said My Grace is sufficient. The grace and power was already there to fix the problem. Paul is the one that had to make adjustments, Not the Lord doing something extra. Sufficient means in Greek more than enough. It does not mean barley get by, or have to suffer, but more than enough to fix everything.

    We have already been blessed with all spiritual blessings in Heavenly places. It's all there already. We have already been given everything that pertains to this life through the knowledge of Jesus. That is what Paul lacked, the knowledge part.

    Eph 1:3 kjva Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    2Pe 1:3 kjva According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

    Everything we need and Paul needed is already there and done.

    What did Paul learn?

    2Co 12:9 kjva And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

    Paul said I would rather be weak in a area than to think I know all about it and can handle it on my own. Where I am weak, I trust in the power of the anointing (Christ) Which is more than enough to handle any messenger Satan has to offer.

    What did the messenger (thorne) effect?
    2Co 12:10-11 kjva 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's (The anointing) sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. 11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

    This is what the messenger was doing, Stiring up the people against Paul in distresses, persecutions, and reproaches. This verse does not say we go through these things for Christ sake. It says we glory in these things that we can trust in the Power of the Anointed one and His anointing to see us through.

    When things are going well, we tend to forget to include the Lord in things we should be including Him in.

    It's when we think we are really smart in something, that is when we get into trouble.

    Paul latter wrote:

    Phi 4:13 kjva I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

    Phi 3:8 kjva Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

    Paul is not trying to "WIN" Salvation. He is going after greater levels of Christ "Anointing" through the knowledge of the Lord Jesus. (Same thing Peter said)
    The Word or nothing and Abdicate say Amen and like this.
  3. Amen @By Faith! Grace is what super-abounds, Rom 5:20, and covers all who accepts Him, because of the blood of Christ, speaking better things than Able. What was Abel's blood saying in God's ears? "Revenge!" "Justice!" "Judgement on my murder!", Gen 4:10. What is Jesus' blood saying? "Mercy!" "Pardon!" "Healing!" "Justification!", Heb 12:24! And it still speaks today because the word λαλουντι (speaks) is Active, Present, Participle - meaning the Blood is "constantly happening right now" waiting only for believers to believe the better things of the blood of Christ. To believe "I have the favor of God" to believe "I am innocent in God's eyes" that "I am righteous through Christ"!

    Hebrews 12:25 (KJV)
    See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven:

    By the Law (speaking on Earth) they did not escape, how can those that hear the truth from the One from heaven, if they refuse to listen, not suffer more, by ignoring Grace!
    The Word or nothing likes this.
  4. Amen, faith in what God said activates the switch so to speak in what God said to come to pass. We have abounding grace toward us to do all we are suppose to do and called to do.

    Paul, went in with tons of knowledge thinking they will really listen to this great wisdom. Without that grace and help factored in though, all the wisdom and knowledge is not going to work out so well.

    So Paul decicided that It's best to be weak in something, so I have to count on the grace of God to get it accomplished.

    Paul said that I can do all things through Christ (Through the Anointed ones anointing and his anointing for us) He did not say I can do all things beause I know all about it, move out of the way God, I got this.

    The Word or nothing likes this.
  5. Yes this is what I said and I was going to post very simler to what you posted. So you post was perfect thank you. I just wanted to say That God never puts sickness on us ever. Because there are some who think He does. What an afront to Jehovah rapha. So again thanks for a great post. and thanks to Abdicate for another great post good to see some people on board.
    Abdicate likes this.
  6. Amen bro what a great post. Where were you when the God heals today post was running?
  7. Praise God. It's not that we want to be "ON BOARD" do I get upset because folks don't compare scriptures and believe goofy things, thinking I am wrong? Or, does it bother me that I love them and want them to see something that can save their life and the life of the loved ones?

    After maturing a whole lot through the years and still maturing. It's US against the enemy hurting our brothers and sisters who name Jesus as their Lord. Satan has no right to touch us, we are Citizens of Heaven, and not of HIs World down here. Just as Paul was about to get beat, He spoke up and said, Is it lawful to beat a Roman citizen? it's not lawful to beat Paul, and it's not lawful the enemy harm and kills us.

    The Word or nothing likes this.
  8. It was the way you presented yourself that I didn't like on the other thread. And you mentioned Andrew Wommack as someone you watch and listen to. I have been listening to Andrew since 1996, well I took a break from him when I went through some soul searching times. I attend his college as well so I think you are in pretty good company listening to his lessons.
    Major likes this.
  9. I don't think that God puts sickness on us, He does allow it to happen. We live in a fallen world still. A world filled with death and sickness. Christians get sick and some get healed, and others for whatever reason do not.

    I gave you the example of my wife. She has been prayed for, over, hands laid on, anointed with oil. Yet, she still has MS and it continues to worsen. You may not believe that God sometimes says My grace is sufficient for you, but I do. I also believe that she will be healed, as I said either while she is alive or when she goes to be with the Lord.

    If it happens when she goes to be with the Lord, then God didn't lie. He still healed her completely.

    I do have a question for you.

    Why did Paul say to Timothy for him to take some wine for his stomach issues if all he had to do was go to an elder to be healed? Surely, Timothy, who was like as son to Paul, had prayed and been prayed for and hands laid on for healing.
    Major likes this.
  10. I cant speak on healing any more sorry bro. I can speak on skype if you like.
  11. Does your wife speak like this though? After prayer we say I still have the disease and it continues to get worse? Why would someone say that? Because they believe more in the symptoms, than they do what God said.

    Is anointing someone with oil mean anything, the whole church praying mean anything? Even the best in the Land tried, but could not cast the devil out of that boy and get him healed. The best the World had to offer, could not.

    Did the best in the Land go make a doctrine that Sometimes God heals and sometimes he does not? They were a little smarter than that, they asked, "Why could we not cast him out?"

    Peter did not go off and say I need to write a book on how the Lord does not always healed because "I" failed at something.

    Jesus said because of your unbelief. Had nothing to do with the will of God, or what God wanted.

    It's pretty presumptious to say we tried, and we did this or had hands laid on us but no healing, so it's God's fault. It's also prideful.

    Your wife healed now, or in heaven? Two outcomes to what I believe.

    What did James call this?

    Let him ask in faith, nothing waivering, for He that wavers is like the sea tossed with the wind, let not that man think He shall recieve anything of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

    I believe God will Heal me, but if Not............ Then .................... double minded.

    Jesus said, when you pray, believe that your recieve, then you have it. Someone that has recived, does not need to pray anymore. It's theirs.

    Abraham recived Issacc and did not consider his own body, but coutned the Lord Faithful as promised. As far as Abraham was concerned, it was a done deal after the Ishmael incident which fouled a lot of things up.

    You have to settle if it's God's will to heal your wife our not. If you don't know the Lord's will concerning something, then you won't have faith to recive anything.

    If you need help, I have free material you both can listen to together. You can't just believe and say what you want against scriptures and expect results. It does not work that way.


    Wisdom is the principle thing, therefore get wisdom. Most healing comes from just getting the Wisdom of God. We do what God says do. God say wash in the river, we go wash. He says march around a city, we march. he says put mud in your eye, we go get the mud.

    If God through Paul says to drink wine, then we go get some wine.

    Water in them days was not the most safe to drink, and Alchol killed a lot of the harmful bacteria back then that caused stomach issues. Some people were more suseptable than others. We just do as instructed and it's fixed.

    The Word or nothing likes this.
  12. I can clearly see the difference in you speaking from 17 years and me speaking from two years experiance. :)
  13. Believe what you wish, and I shall do the same.
  14. I don't Skype.
  15. That is fine, but let it be recorded between the FAther and us that Help and light was offered for your wife. Have a awesome day.
  16. Let it also be recorded between the Father and us that I have used discernment and the leading of the Holy Spirit to come to the belief that I have and is the reason why I stand by it.
    Major likes this.
  17. With that I will bow out of the thread, again but the Holy Spirit's leading.

    Have a Merry Christmas!
  18. Busy...
  19. Isa 53:5 KJV - 5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    The word for "healed" is רָפָא (rafa) in Hebrew and literally means to mend (by stitching), i.e. (figuratively) to cure -- cure, (cause to) heal, physician, repair, thoroughly, make whole. So the question is, why are folks still ill. I don't have a scriptureal answer, but in Hebrew each letter has its own meaning and רָפָא means, according to each letter, man, mouth, sacrifice (or authority). So what does a man do with their mouth besides eat? They speak. What then, from the letter meaning are we to speak? The sacrifice, what sacrifice? Jesus, the sacrificed Lamb.

    So Peter quotes this verse:

    1Pe 2:24 KJV - 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    Healed here is in the aorist passive indicative verb tense in Greek. It means it is done for you, there's nothing required. Greek verbs tenses indicate not only time of action, but more especially kind of action. Aorist tense is a secondary tense, and accordingly, in the indicative mood it indicates past action. The kind of action indicated by the aorist tense is undefined. Inasmuch as there is no definition of the kind of action, the emphasis is upon the fact of the action rather than the duration of the action. In the indicative mood, the significance is that it happened. Whether it happened over a period of time or in an instant is not indicated.
  20. #20 The Word or nothing, Dec 24, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2014
    I do have a scripture for why some dont get healed. And I know you know it, but maybe never crossed the two together.

    Jesus Heals a Boy with a Demon

    Matt 17:14-21

    And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
    15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. 16And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. 17Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. 18And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

    19Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? 20And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. 21Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
    Also remember that this was after this.
    The Twelve Apostles
    (Mark 3:13-19; Luke 6:12-16) 1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

    And another important thing is what we say as you just said.

    Proverbs 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
    If we say God gave our children this. We speak for death. If we say God only heals some , death again. If there is unbelief then death is your reward in everything.
    satan came to steal kill and destroy. Jesus came to give LIFE.

    Jesus where are thy accusers?

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