Pastor system

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by eric m williams, May 1, 2015.

  1. #1 eric m williams, May 1, 2015
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
    Given that the example of church leadership we see described in scripture is something quite different than the customary model (senior pastor, music pastor, etc...) why do so many churches and denominations embrace the current system rather than working with or at least toward the system the bible demonstrates?

    What, if any, is the biblical justification for using such a model?

    You thoughts....?
  2. Would you please post the Scriptural example you are talking about so we can all be on the same page.
    Cturtle, Fish Catcher Jim and Angela333 says Amen and like this.
  3. Yeah, I'd say since we're approaching this from a Biblical perspective, it would be useful to get an idea of which passages you are referring to.

    We do also have non-Denominationals, Calvinists, Lutherans, and Catholics on this forum, so you'll find different models represented and each side providing a different answer.
    Fish Catcher Jim likes this.
  4. That's a bit difficult to do as there is little that is set in a cut and clear system. There is a pattern laid out throughout Acts and the epistles.
    1) They met primarily in homes. We meet primarily in large buildings (churches). This could have been because of persecution. It could have been because of low funds. It could have been because Jesus didn't need one (or recommend one) so they saw no need for it.

    2) They gave all or as each had need. Even when they were told to gather the offering once a week, there was no mention of an amount. There was also no mention of it being required. They were told to give alms from what they had.

    3) There was no formal training. The first disciples were uneducated and unlearned yet they changed the world (that hated them) by being obedient to Jesus. I have been referred to where Paul wrote Timothy to study to show himself approved. Paul was referring to scripture, and he wrote "approved unto God". He did not write "Go to an institution of learning" or "be approved unto man".

    4) They acted on the belief that it was their responsibility to take care of those who could not take care of themselves (widows and orphans). We have almost entirely delegated this to the government.

    5) They met often (daily) not just 1-3 times a week. No importance was placed on one day as being more important than another. Every day was to be spent in prayer, worship, and obedience.

    6) We expect one person to perform oversight for hundreds of people. We are not told anything about this in the New Testament. Everywhere the apostles went they appointed "elders". They did not appoint a head pastor, assistant pastor, music minister, or any other form of hierarchy. Nothing states that one elder was over another.

    When we go to church we are one of many. We can go there and make an appearance or get our spiritual food and never contribute. The bible tells us that all Christians are given 'gifts of the Spirit'. In allowing people to fade into the background we allow them to hide from what the Spirit is calling them to do. A few pastors cannot truly disciple people that they do not fully interact with. When the groups are smaller there is less chance to hide and more chance for people to know each other. When you know someone you know when they are hurting, when they are being persecuted, when they are falling into sin, and you can see the impact/blessing someone has on others (and themselves) when they use the gifts that the spirit has given them.

    Paul often only knew of backsliders when he was told of them by the elders of the churches. Paul could not watch all these people. It is worth noting that he did not try. He responded to threats to the church (body of believers) and to those failings he was told of. He did not try to run himself ragged watching everyone. Jesus chose 12 men to be His disciples. Yes he did have many more, but he made a point of setting aside twelve people for close instruction. If Jesus did this then what business do have telling one person that they are in charge of dozens, hundreds, or more. I can do amazing things by letting the spirit use me, but I AM NOT JESUS. Jesus was God in the flesh and he chose ONLY twelve for direct discipleship. If we expect one person to disciple hundreds, that person will fail.

    There are many mature believers that are not afforded the opportunity for speaking on what they have been shown (to the body or to individuals) because of the time requirements and because of misinterpretation of what the bible says about order in the church. We know that all were given the chance to speak in the first church. The benefits of this can be enormous. The Spirit may well have shown you something that I have yet to learn. There are few things more awesome than learning more about Jesus and what he has shown us. This also allows people to speak things that are not of God. This is another area where accountability comes in. A person may be new in faith and have made a mistake or been told something wrong by a false teacher. The Holy Spirit knows itself and what came from itself. Those that have learned to listen more closely (mature believers) need to correct, admonish, and encourage others whose hearing is still congested by more background noise.
    Angela333 and Mykuhl say Amen and like this.
  5. will this count for as an "appointment"?....

    Acts 6:1-7New King James Version (NKJV)
    Seven Chosen to Serve
    6 Now in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplying, there arose a complaint against the Hebrews by the Hellenists,a]'>[a] because their widows were neglected in the daily distribution. 2 Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, “It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables. 3 Therefore, brethren, seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business; 4 but we will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the word.”

    5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch, 6 whom they set before the apostles; and when they had prayed, they laid hands on them.

    7 Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.
    Major likes this.
  6. Aha, if I may ask are you prior military?

    That covers the appointment of deacons and I don't think it really counts as being a hierarchy position as scripture describes it here.
    Many churches who appoint deacons use them as elders or church heads, when that is not what they are supposed to be.
  7. I think that many churches attempt to take a business model and apply it, trying to run a church like a business. Another example of bringing the world into the church.
    eric m williams likes this.
  8. I think they read the 'purpose driven life'
  9. Apparently the guy that wrote it was sad to see pastors not earning any money to 'run' the churches. He grew fat after moving to a richer area, the wealthy Orange County in america.
    Then he wrote a book about his methods.
  10. He used a lot of different paraphrased bibles to back up his methods.
  11. Our pastor (shepherd) tells us that Jesus is our lead pastor...and his. He also teaches us rightly that he is a recipient of a particular gift and ministry along with all of us, and he is no different than any of those who serve God, as we ALL have spiritual gifts and ALL have been given a ministry by God. He implores us to remember that we are all equals in the Kingdom, working to bring glory to God and Jesus' name---side by side and shoulder to shoulder.
    Major, Cturtle and Mykuhl says Amen and like this.
  12. That is not the truth.
  13. That is a refreshing thing to read! I need to go to your church lol![emoji2]
  14. You'd LOVE it. God led me there and He feeds me there.
    Mykuhl likes this.
  15. It seems to me the methodists were the closest in recent times to follow the pattern set by the early church. I dont know if its still the case though, certainly they met in homes and shared the gospel.
  16. From my understanding, they performed the Sabbath prayers in temples, but there isn't major recording of which building (aside from the Cenacle where the last supper was had).

    Most churches that I remember ever did this. Granted, I've been to so many different kinds, but the ones I especially knew well of since I was old enough to consider my faith more seriously were Presbyterian, Non-Denominational, and Catholic. None of them ever had a requirement otherwise that could be considered extortion.

    Training for Christ Himself, I'd say, is the most formal training one could have because it comes directly from God in the flesh. Each of the disciples went on to become bishops, and each of them trained others, and so on. While the university system wasn't put into place until much later, the training did exist and it would have been regarded as very formal.

    This is still Christian practice taught proper, although the Christian teaching is that it should especially be a help to the soul than to the body, and even the government is so frequently at odds with the Church (especially in other countries and eras).

    Granted not all denominations have daily worship (other than home devotionals), some churches do daily worship. Catholics aren't the only ones who do, but speaking on the Catholic behalf, that is a very major part of being sincere in faith since. Not only does it take place daily, but for some parishes, it may be 3-5 times every day.

    I'm having trouble with this one -- is this more in regards to the title than the positions?

    Putting mega churches aside for the moment, many parishes that are larger tend to hold more need for a larger staff and rectory. When I go to the National Basilica, there is a swarm of priests toward the front because so many people go there. When I go to my home parish, there are only three priests since it's a much smaller group. And while it is the church leader's responsibility to reach out to his parishioners, it's also the parishioner's responsibility to do to God's will and listen to the wisdom that is being delivered. This tradition existed long before Christianity was brought to fruition under the Jewish tradition.

    The reason why there were 12 original disciples isn't because it was an arbitrary number. It's because of the 12 tribes of Israel and each one played a role of fulfilling those tribes. That's why when Judas betrayed Our Lord, they didn't say "Well, we've got 11 now." Judas had a replacement, Matthias.

    Each of them didn't go off into their diocese and preside as acting bishops without training other men into the life of discipleship and bishophood. They had many people who worked beside them, like Ignatius of Antioch, Clement, Timothy, Linus, Anacletus, etc. etc. But even look at Christ as the root since his work wasn't done alone, which is why he had the original 12. This wasn't to say he couldn't have done it without them, but he used them because there would continue to be a use after his ascension.

    Well, this is definitely one of the dangers of having tens of thousands of different denominations, and today, that is just a reality...misinterpretation can happen very easily and heresies can develop and even become popular -- and each side will claim that they have been divinely inspired to believe what they believe even when it contradicts what the other divinely inspired person may say. So you're right in that a spiritual maturity is very important because that immaturity can lead people away, even if they think they are closer than ever.
  17. Sorry I dont really know what a parish or diocese it like an area?
  18. I dont think the disciples had formal training in that they studied out of books and had classes.
    Jesus teaching methods were hands on.

    Also christians were kicked out of synagogues where they had formal meetings so they had to meet in homes. I think only in times of constantine where churches as buildings came to be a big thing, cos he wanted all those temples converted to his religion. Which I very much doubt he was truly born again.
  19. A parish is just a specific church building where a congregant may go to regularly, so he knows the pastor and the fellow church-goers...a home church if you will. An yes, you got it -- a diocese is an area, but more specifically, it's an area of multiple parishes. Sometimes this word was used simply as a church even though there were multiple parishes within that.

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