Our Glorious Gospel -miles Stanford

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by netchaplain, Jan 24, 2012.

  1. The Lord Jesus, as Israel's Messiah in His pre-Cross humiliation, "went about all Galilee, teaching in their [Israel's] synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom" (Matthew 4:23). It was at this time that He sat upon the mountainside and taught His disciples the Sermon on the Mount.

    The Lord Jesus Christ, after the Cross and in His ascension glory as Head and Life, ministered His "glorious Gospel of Christ" (2 Corinthians 4:4) to His Body--and He did it through Paul. "I want you to know brothers, that the Gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ." (Galatians 1:11,12). "...I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven" (Acts 26:19).

    Not one of the apostles or disciples taught the Gospel of the kingdom, or any other gospel, to Paul. The "glorious Gospel of Christ," of and to the Church, had been hidden in God--it was not in any of the Scriptures--until the glorified Bridegroom presented it to His Bride, through Paul.

    Dr. William R. Newell presents clearly the new-creation difference between the Lord Jesus as Messiah speaking to His earthly people, Israel, and the glorified Lord Jesus Christ as Head speaking to His heavenly Body. "He is the Head of the Body, the Church; He is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead..." (Colossians 1:18).

    There are two great revelators, or unfolders of Divine Truth in the Bible--Moses in the Old Testament, and Paul in the New Testament. Some may ask, "Is not Jesus the Great Teacher?" In a sense that is true, but actually He is the Person taught about, rather than teaching, in the Gospel. The Law and the prophets pointed forward to Him; the Epistles point up to Him; and the Revelation points to His second coming, and those things connected with it. The Lord Jesus Christ, therefore, is the theme of the Bible.

    Unto none of the Twelve Apostles did God directly reveal the great body of doctrine for this dispensation. Just as He chose Moses to be the revelator to Israel of the Ten Commandments and all connected with the Law dispensation, so He chose Saul of Tarsus to be the unfolder of those mighty truths connected with our Lord's death, burial, resurrection and His ascended Person. And all the "mysteries," revealed to the Church in this dispensation by the Holy Spirit in the Word, are set forth by Paul. Finally, Paul is the revelator of that great company of God's elect, called the Church, the Body of Christ, which is also His Bride--members of the Lord Jesus Himself.

    Paul is the glorified Lord Jesus' declarer of the Gospel to us. Take his thirteen Epistles of Romans to Philemon out of the Bible and you are bereft of Christian doctrine. If you were to take Paul's Epistles from the Word, you could not find anything about the Church, the Body of Christ, for none of the Apostles mention that Body.

    You could not find the exact meaning of any of the great doctrines, such as: 1) Justification, 2) Redemption, 3) Propitiation, 4) Reconciliation, 5) Identification, or 6) Sanctification. You could not find what is perhaps the most tremendous fact of every Christian's life, that of his personal union with the Lord Jesus Christ in glory.

    Saul already stood in clearer light regarding the Risen Lord than did the other apostles; for they had known Him primarily in His humiliation, and they were His messengers to Israel, of whom is Christ according to His "human ancestry" (Romans 9:5). But Paul's first vision of Christ was as the Glorified One, the Son of God, in ascension glory.

    The concept of the Lord Jesus in Paul's Epistles is one of constant, unspeakable glory. We do not mean that the other apostles did not recognize the Lord Jesus as the Son of God. They had, long since (Matthew 16:16; John 1:14, etc.). But their first testimony at Jerusalem and to Israel had been more of the Messiahship and Lordship of Jesus, as the Crucified and now risen King, who was ready to return to Israel and set up His kingdom if they would repent (Acts 2:36; 3:19, etc). But Paul received his teaching all from heaven, from the Lord Jesus Christ in glory, rather than on earth in Jewish connections. Paul's glorious Gospel has nothing Jewish about it.

    You can discern a man's preaching or teaching by this rule--is he Pauline? Does his doctrine start and finish according to those statements of Christian doctrine written by the glorified Lord Jesus Christ through Paul? No matter how wonderful and popular a man may seem in his gifts and apparent leadership, if his Gospel is not Pauline, it is not the Gospel; and we might as well get our minds settled once and for all as to that.

    Failure or refusal to discern the Pauline Gospel as a separate and new revelation, and not a "development from Judaism," accounts for most of the confusion in many people's minds today as regards just what the Gospel is.
  2. Not that Paul had more revelation of Christ but of His Body, the Church and Bride (Eph 5:32). Jesus only mentioned His church to the Apostles (Mat 16:18) but waited to use Paul to teach it. It's founded, ofcourse, on the Gospel of Christ, which is salvation by Him only, which they all learned from Christ.

    It's not that Paul was superior, we're all equeal in Him, but are used by Him in various positions, as Paul was, to be the one to reveal the Church dispensation. Not to say that any of them were superior to the other but the difference of Christ communicating to His Apostles after His ressurrection and before His ascention, wasn't the same as His communication with Paul after His ascention and back in His glory.

    I believe the mystery of the Church is mostly that it may comprise only those who believe in Christ before they see Him (Jhn 20:29). Finally saved Israel and Judah (Ezek 36:27) may have a different eternal position in God (they won't believe until they see Him) but we will still be "one flock". Israel eternally inheriting the New Earth, and the Curch (Jews and Gentiles who believed without seeing) the New Heaven? Scripture isn't direct on this concept but it seems to be indicated so.
  3. Just to confirm your comment of Jesus being the CENTER of the Scriptures.....................

    Luke 24:27
    "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He (Jesus) expounded unto them in all the Scriptures THE THINGS CONCERNING HIMSELF".

    The death and resurrection on Jesus had fulfilled their prophecies. Wouldn't you have loved to have been there that evening???? Jesus is the center piece of all the Scriptures. He is on every page from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22.

    Jesus says that there are two things which are essential to the understanding of God's Word.

    1). Luke 24:25 indicates that we must have faith in the Bible. Jesus said in verse 25......
    "O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken".

    Pascal said......
    "Human knowledge must be understood to be believed BUT divine knowledge must be believed to be

    I believe that the Bible is a closed book to the critic and infidel. He/they can learn facts, use philosophy to explain away what is not understood, but they miss the message. On the other hand, we have all I think seen the simple soul whose heart is turned in humble faith to God, his mind and heart is enlightened by the Holy Spirit of God and he/she has more understanding of God's Word than does the greatest of all Bible commentators.

    2). The Lord says that the Bible can only be divinely understood.

    Human intellect is simply not enough to comprehend its truths.

    Luke 23:45...
    "Then He opened their understanding that they might understand the Scriptures."

    Then Paul confirms that in 1 Corth. 2:14...........
    "But the natural man reciveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are "spiritual discerned".

    There are things that are above and beyound human comprehension and only the Holy Spirit of God can make them real to us. I believe that the prayer of every believer should be.................................

    "Dear God, open my eyes that I may behold the wonderful things of YOUR WORD".

    Thanks Netchaplin for your inciteful post. I enjoyed it greatly.
  4. I am sorry Netchaplain but I do have to point out that this erroneous theology of Paul being the instigator of the New testament to the church while the Twelve original Apostles are relegated to mere reinforcers of the OT to the Jews has been pushed on CFS some time ago and was thoroughly and demonstrably proven to be contrary to Biblical truth. It seems to be part of the theology that spawned the "Two Covenant" theology that you put up previously.

    I am merely pointing this out so that people here understand that what you are putting up here is merely the opinion of a particular theology held by some and should not, in any way, be construed as biblically accurate even though that is how you present it.

    I note there are a number of people here putting up the opinions of certain theologies that some people adhere to under the guise of accurate biblical exposition. I think it is important that members and visitors alike be made well aware they are just a variety of particular theological opinions and should, in no way, be construed as biblical truths despite the writers presenting them as if they were. They should all be thoroughly tested against what the Bible actually says. Sadly just about all of them fall far short of Biblical accuracy and accordance as this one does also.

    Regards Misty.
  5. You posted............
    "Israel eternally inheriting the New Earth, and the Church (Jews and Gentiles who believed without seeing) the New Heaven? Scripture isn't direct on this concept but it seems to be indicated so."

    Revelation 22:1-2
    "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John,saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

    We know by the Scripture that there will in fact be an Earth eternally. Will the present Earth be done away with with...YES and NO. I think the best answer is that the earth will BE CHANGED. Clearly the Scriptures teach that this present economy of creation is to pass away in order to make room for a "New Heaven and a New EARTH".
    2 Peter 3:7-11 tells us that there is going to be a great change coming to the old Earth.

    Matt. 24:35..........
    "Heaven and earth shall pass awaybut my words shall not pass away."

    The old creation was made for the first Adam. Christ, the Last Adam has a NEW CREATION for His NEW CREATURES.

    Isaiah 65:17..............
    "For behold, I create NEW heavens and a NEW EARTH; and the former shall not be remembered nor come to mind".

    Isaiah 66:22..........
    "For as the NEW heaven and the NEW EARTH, which I will make, shall remain before me saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain".

    God promised Abraham a land forever and David a throne forever......is that not true?????

    Daniel prophesied in 2:44 of.........................
    "a kingdom which shall never be destroyed"!!!!!

    Now, folks........the Bible is either true or false. ALL of it is true or ALL of it is false.

    The NEW EARTH will see total fulfillment of all the Old Testament prophecies which means that there must be an EARTH here for that to happen to and in.

    Consider than Hebrews 11"13-16 and the faith of those Old Testament people.............
    "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. "

    "Heavenly" does not mean they are going to heaven.....but that heaven is coming to this earth!!!!

    THINK!!! What do we pray when we say Matthew 6:10??????
    "Thy Kingdom COME...in earth as it is in heaven"!!!!

    Then we see in verse two New Jerusalem. I believe that is the home of the church of believers and where they/we shall live. This city comes into view at the end of the 1000 year rule of Christ..

    It is a definate..LITERAL place. It will be the habitation/eternal home for the Bride of Christ..the Church.

    Well, I have once again rambled on and on. This is what I believe is in our future as believers as told to us by the Holy Scriptures.
  6. Hi Major and God's blessings to you! I know there's going to be a new Heaven and I believe the new Earth will be, not a restoration but something which hasn't existed before because "the first Heaven and the first Earth were passed away" (Rev 21:1) and "the Earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (2Pet 3:10). My supposition was concerning the concept that Scripture isn't clear if the Jews will have the new Earth and the Church will have the new Heaven.

    Hi Mistmann and God's blessings to you also! What others say, past or whenever, we can see if the material coincides with Scripture. It's most accurate to judge experiences and knowledge by Scripture, not judge Scripture by experiences and knowledge. Not saying you do either.
  7. Hi Netchaplain,

    On the first matter you are correct in that the Bible speaks of a totally new earth. We must remember also that when Jesus ascended UP into Heaven by ascending UP into the sky and the Apostles stood around looking UP into Heaven meaning they were standing around looking UP into the sky (just so people begin to understand what it is the Bible calls "Heaven"). Jesus said before He ascended that He goes to PREPARE a place for us and when He returns He will take us (as in ALL of His people) THERE. John also sees the Moon sized New Jerusalem DESCENDING (ie landing) out of Heaven onto the NEW Earth.

    Two thing are clear from this. The first is that the NEW Earth will exist BEFORE THIS Earth is destroyed when Christ returns AFTER preparing the place we are to go. The second is that ALL who are in Christ go to the New Earth via the moon sized New Jerusalem. Jesus did not say He goes to prepare TWO places but only ONE place for His people.

    As to the other I was merely alerting people to the fact that the theology being discussed has previously been demonstrated to be not in accordance with Biblical teaching. But if you would like (as you seem to be saying) I am happy to demonstrate again why it is not in accordance with the Bible.

    Here to start with is just one demonstration:-

    We note from this that it is PETER, not Paul that declares it is by HIS mouth, not Paul's that God chose to preach the word to the Gentiles. We also see it is PETER, not Paul who declares what the Gentiles need and need not observe of the Mosaic Laws and Jewish traditions. It is, at PETER'S direction that the APOSTLES, ELDERS, and WHOLE CHURCH write to the Gentiles regarding what they should observe and what they need not observe, NOT Paul.

    This alone totally demolishes the theology you are puting forward but there is a whole lot more places where the theology is contrary to the Bible. But the horse is now well and truly dead, is there need to flog it any more??

    Regards Misty
  8. I understand my friend. I should have been clearer.

    IMHO, for what it is worth..........believe that the New Jerusalem which comes down from Heaven and is the Bride of Christ will be the home of the church, which is in fact the Bride of Christ. By that I mean that they will be ONE. It is there that the Bride will be on display for all eternity, which confirms Ephesians 5:27.

    Ephesians 5:27
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

    Isaiah 65:17-25 clearly mentions Jerusalem and its people. There’s no justification for thinking of this as anything other than a passage pertaining to Israel in the Millennium. Remember, for Israel the Millennium is the promised Kingdom Age, so it doesn’t make any sense to have a Millennium without them in their land.

    Jewish believers who survive the Great Tribulation will live in Israel during the Millennium while believing Gentile survivors will populate the nations. They and their children will live on Earth during the Millennium marrying and having children as they will be human.

    The Church will inhabit the New Jerusalem, and that’s where the mansions are that Jesus spoke of in John 14:1-2. It’s seen coming down from Heaven in Rev. 21 but is never described as actually landing here. Truth be told, it wouldn’t really fit anywhere. Far bigger than all of Israel it will have a foot print as big as western Europe, or all of the Eastern US from the Atlantic coast to the Mississippi River and Maine to Florida. Besides that it’s 1400 miles tall. Compare that to the tallest building on earth today at 1800 feet. In volume it’s 1/6th the size of Earth.

    Therefore, to the Jews He promised them the "Promised LAND" in the Old Testament which is going to be the Kingdoom and the Church will have its home in heaven.
  9. General reminder to keep things civil.

    Remember, this is not a topic affecting one's salvation so don't treat it as a life or death issue.
  10. You my brother are preachingto the choir! Nothing would make me happier! I hope it did not come across in any other way friends.

  11. Hi Mistmann! Jesus was referring to His sheep or His fold (believing Jews and Gentiles) when He said " He goes to PREPARE a place for us", and I believe that place is the New Heaven, because the Abrahamic promise was to the unbelieving Jews whom God saves in Ezekel's prophecy, during the Millennium, and one promise of God to them was that they would inherit the promised land forever--New Earth.

    God sent Peter and Paul to the Gentiles: "That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost" (Jhn 10:16). The difference was that He used Paul to reveal His Church " (Eph 5:32). The Church Paul was referring to here is His Body and Bride. The church referred here, " the apostles and elders, with the whole church" was just a regular local gathering--group or church.
    Major likes this.
  12. That's good timing with the admonishment Admin. We should agree on the essentials (i.e., doctrine of salvation) and can lovingly dissagree on the non-essentials (i.e., dispensatioanlaism, predestination, etc.). The essentials are a must for salvation and the non-essentials are for growth in Christ image.

    "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God; Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment" (Heb 6:2). These are the essentials. We're admonished not to stay as "babes in Christ" but continue on to maturity in Him. For many, this is as far as they have gone, but they can go on from there to maturity.
  13. Above, post #11 Scripture, Jhn 10:16, is suppose to be Rom 15:16. Also this: ". . . the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me (Paul), as [the gospel] for the circumcised [was] to Peter" (Gal 2:7),
    for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me (Paul) toward the Gentiles . . . they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we [should go] to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised" (Gal 2:7-9).
  14. If I may address the last, first. The point was that it was the APOSTLES and elders of the WHOLE church that instructed the Gentiles as to how to follow Christ, NOT Paul. Nothing in the Bible declares Paul's teachings had precedence over those of the Apostles when it came to the Gentiles. Paul, least of all, placed himself and his teaching above those of the 12 Apostles. Indeed he regarded himself as a LESSER Apostle than the 12. Nor did he declare his teaching to be any different to that of the 12:-

    In short PAUL would be the first person to disown this theology as not according to even his OWN teaching.

    But as to the first perhaps you can answer this:-

    If in Christ there is no difference between Jew and Gentile and the only way to get OFF this earth is to be IN CHRIST why is there need of two separate places in Heaven? For only those who are NEITHER Jew NOR Gentile (in Christ) will be saved from THIS world? Or are you saying there is another way to be saved OTHER than in Christ by the blood of His sacrifice?
  15. We need to understand this is a division of LABOUR, not a division of Gospel or doctrine. As I quoted in the previous post Paul himself declared no difference whatsoever between what he preached and what the other 12 preached.

    If Paul preached a different gospel to the 12 then would not he be calling for them to be accursed when HE said:

    Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    Ga 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    (Note he uses the plural, not the singular, meaning he is speaking in relation to ALL the apostles not just himself).

    No matter where one goes in the Bible one finds that this theology you have mentioned is contrary to it.
  16. Mistmann , I don't know where you got the idea that I said that "Paul's teachings had precedence over those of the Apostles when it came to the Gentiles". I don't think Paul meant he was less important than the other Apostles, he was being humble, because all are equeal in Christ. Paul said he labored more than them, but that didn't give him "precedence" either.

    I believe God used Paul's teachings the most when it concerns the Church's growth in Christ, but all of them were used concerning being "born again" into the Church. This isn't saying he's superior, even when considering he wrote the majority of the New Testament. God just used Paul to major on a subject (Church) more than the rest.

    To answer you here, "why is there need of two separate places in Heaven", it's not that there are two seperate places in Heaven but that the New Heaven is a different place than the New Earth, hence two places.

    To answer here, "are you saying there is another way to be saved OTHER than in Christ by the blood of His sacrifice?" We realize that most of the Jews in the world don't believe in Christ presently but I believe most of these unbelieving Jews will have to believe when God initiates the Abrahamic promise of Ezek 36:27. The issue at that time could very well be the result of a lesser blessing because they won't believe until they see Christ and the Father causes them to believe. Since it will be a belief by sight, I believe their rewards will not be the same as those who believed without seeing! (Jhn 20:29).

    To answer you here, "Paul himself declared no difference whatsoever between what he preached and what the other 12 preached." They all preached the same concerning salvation by Christ only but I believe Paul had more details concerning the Church and her growth in Christ. " . . . Neither was I taught it by man, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ" (Gal 1:12). Christ appeared only to Paul, post-glory, after His ascention (Acts 9:5, Jhn 20:17) and wanted him to also know and teach revelations concerning His Body and Bride--the Church.
    Again, this doesn't make him superior, just used differently.
  18. Well said and I agree with you.

    To confirm your comment lets look to the Scriptures..........

    Zechariah 12:10
    "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications (remember this is the house of David, no Gentiles are there): and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced (His Crucifixion),..."

    Zechariah 13:6
    "And one (this remnant of Israel) shall say unto him, `What are these wounds in thine hands?' Then he shall answer, `Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends,'"
  19. Your original two posts were liberally sprinkled with statements such as those quoted below:-

    This declares Paul not only preached a different gospel but a superior Gospel to that of the 12 Apostles Christ PERSONALLY appointed and taught face to face daily for around three years. A Christ who clearly had the power to transfigure into His full glory any time He chose as He did at the transfiguration BEFORE the cross. The FATHER Himself in Heaven spoke directly to the Apostles at least one time but there is no record of Him doing so with Paul.

    The mistake here is that the greater number of letters from Paul somehow signifies more spiritual authority and a different Gospel. However Paul admits

    a) that He is not greater than the 12 but if anything, less than.
    b) He does NOT teach a gospel and doctrine that is any different to that taught by the 12.
    c) The church was ALREADY well established BY th 12 BEFORE he joined it for he lamented persecuting it.

    The Bible also tells us it was PETER and not Paul who first preached to and baptised the Gentiles and determined what the Gentiles should and need not observe.

    There is one very obvious reason why most of the letters in the NT come from Paul and not from the others. Paul was the one stuck in prison in Rome and was forced to communicate to the churches by letter while the other Apostles were free to visit them and speak face to face. Naturally he wrote more than the others, he HAD to in order to communicate with them.

    But it is not without reason why Paul was the obvious choice of the Lord to "work" the gentile mission fields as well as be the main letter writer / recorder of the gospel and doctrine they ALL preached. Unlike most of the Apostles Paul was not only a Roman citizen able to freely travel, but also highly educated and knowledgeable of Greek, Roman and other Gentile cultures as well as skilled in writing. Remember many of the 12 were humble Jewish fishermen from the shores of Gallilee, simple tax collectors, etc.

    Any difference between the ministry of Paul and the ministry of the 12 is of a PRATICAL nature, not a spiritual one.

    But I note the strong well defined position of your first two posts as highlighted above appears to differ considerably from the seemingly vaguer less defined position of your last post. Have you had a change of heart or change of position since the strong and definitive stance of your original posts?

    Regards Misty
  20. Not changed but trying to explain Stanford's materials in a more basic form. Many read his teachings but don't study it, which I've been doing since I've been a Chpalain, for about ten years. I'm trying to get people past the dispensational teachings so we can get on to other growth material. I share with eight Christian forum sights at present and still adding due to the responses.

    Regardless of who the Lord uses and with what level of teaching He reveals to them, He knows they will be humble and loving using them. It needs to be done outside of the arena of conflict, even though beliefs will very. The truth is always to be shared in love, as you know!

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