OT law & New Testament giving

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Siloam, Mar 17, 2015.

  1. Over the years, I have been a member or regular attainder of many churches and congregations. Without exception they have preach Christ, and Him raised. We are saved by His grace and our sins forgiven and ourselves justified by the blood of Jesus Christ. Amen.

    Although it is sometimes less to the front of teaching, but usually a significant part of the teaching is that we are freed from the Old Testament Law. The Law is holy, but we are unable to live up to it. Its purpose, in part, was and is to emphasize in our experience that we cannot achieve righteousness by following a set of rules, however holy those rules may be. Christ’s sacrifice is the fulfillment of the law and we thus are freed from jot and tittle judgment according to that law.

    I would appreciate sometime hearing a series of sermons showing how the rule of love, both for God, and for our neighbor fulfills Old Testament Law. Examples could be given showing how breaking any of the Ten Commandments would require breaking either the commandment to love God or the commandment to love your neighbor. Further examples could be given for many other OT laws.

    An inconsistency that I perceive with concept of Old Testament law being filled by Christ’s sacrifice and common church teaching is in the subject of tithes. I have heard a preacher one week preach Christ’s fulfillment of the Law, and the very next preach on the importance of tithing. Usually, the only New Testament text given specifically addressing the quantity of the offering is the story from Acts 4 of Ananias and Sapphira.

    If you read Acts 5, it is clear that the issue wasn't the amount. Even if it where there is nothing hinting at 10%. It is clear that the contribution was voluntary, and the problem concerns their attempt to deceive The Lord. To be fair, one pastor at a church where I had membership also considered the 10% figure part of the Old Testament Law and that the Lord’s economy in today’s world is based upon giving as the Spirit leads.

    From my viewpoint there are several problems with this. Besides being contrary to the idea of Christ as complete fulfillment of Old Testament requirements, it is spiritually counterproductive and financially unnecessary.

    There are many struggling, even in the best economy at the best of times. I am quite sure that the enemy works in the minds of both spiritually weak brothers, and those that are close to giving their lives to Christ and wreak great mischief. For those that are saved, but have little, inability to contribute money can cause undeserved shame. There are many ways to give to God. I am quite convinced that He can do wonders with talents and time. If one has little monetary treasure, he is just as welcome.

    For my part, God has blessed be greatly both spiritually and in worldly goods. Few but the most very poor b would call me financially rich, but I had a long unbroken and well paid career. My wife also worked at a well paying career with the exception of a few years when my sons were small. The economic downturn cut my career short in 2009, and another complication a few years later cut into my retirement savings, but I have lived within my meansm prepared for the future, and do not worry too much about the bills the mail may bring. A 10% standard for me has been and is now much too low. I believe in sacrificial giving, meaning that my gifts to the Lord’s work should large enough that I have to plan and prepare and forego or limit some of the extras.

    I would like to see more emphasis on sacrificial giving and much less on extracting funds based on a numeric formula.

    I have never spoken up much about this in Bible studies. I am sure that many who should be giving more would only hear that there is no hard rule. I am also cognizant that any man’s reason sounds good to himself, but my thoughts here have not had the benefit of anther brothers comment. I invite comment here.
    Roads likes this.
  2. Greetings Siloam,

    Love is a direct cammandment from God. To Love Him and to love thy neighbor. No area for questioning.......Just obey and honor......Pluss it pleases Him as well. So if you find Love in the OT or NT one must remember.........Jesus told us.....It is a cammand from God the Father. That is all I need to know. : ) Know what I mean ?

    Tithe or 10 percent of our increase or income belongs to God. It's amazing that He honors this with blessings even though it is already His. Ever stop and think about that ? God is an awesome God. In all truth.........it is all His any ways...He is our source. Not our jobs or hobbies or what have you. God is and always will be our source. However if you get out there thinking and acting like it is you or your job and it is by you that you get paid, Well you have slipped into an area that is not going to be real stable. Now you are placing mammon with a higher authority over God and that is simply not going to work long, if you are a born again beleiver...The world system is just that, seeking to meet their own needs with out God in any way they can.

    I believe the book of acts is more along the line of seed or gift then tithe. They would take up collections and send them to Christians who were having trouble or need in one area and then when they got back on their feet they would take up collections and send them out. This way Christians all across the land were never with out. They kept blessing each other and God and GOD kept pouring out unto them....

    Unlike today where far to many Christians wont even tithe litte known, plant seed or help others out. It is sad to hear a Spirit Filled Believer Born into the Kingdom of God saying I can not afford to tithe or those preachers just want your money.....Sadly enough, if they only would grasp that this is the time to be tithing unto God not holding back or keeping from God what is His. We honor God when we tithe......When will people wake up and stop being so carnal minded ?

    Any way Siloam, Peace to you and thank you for your post and all this that I wrote is your fault ya know !! LOL.....
    Euphemia likes this.
  3. Yes I agree.
    Some churches are really bad, I mark those and avoid them.
    God knows my financial circumstances, not some preacher.

    I found out that they only started doing this cos they wanted new church buildings, but before that everyone got along fine without them meeting in each others houses.

    I think its sneaky how some preachers twist scripture, and then even more abominable to misuse the funds and spend it all on their own self. Can anyone say Judas?

    I do know God sees however much you offer and does bless you if you give faithfully and with a cheerful heart..but dont waste your money if it only goes to support a greedy preacher and a money pit that is a church building that God could destroy in 3 seconds with an earthquake. Remember the temple?
    Pastor Gary likes this.
  4. #4 LysanderShapiro, Mar 17, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2015
    In the defense of numeric formula, it's only intended to be used as a tool to help someone in discerning their tithing. It isn't dogmatic, doctrinal, etc.

    Not everyone is able to give financially, so some instead offer their time and services to God -- and others offer both. In fact, the ideal is to offer both if one has it to give.

    The connection of OT law, as you put it, was fulfilled by Christ, but that isn't to mean that we are free to take as we please to leave what we want. The law of the OT is really broken up into multiple categories; Universal Moral Law (divine law), Culture-Specific Law (Mosaic law), and Culture-Specific tradition. Tithing isn't related to the last two; it is an act of giving back to God and recognized as an extension of charity. This act existed prior to Christ and continued to exist under the New Covenant.

    It would be wrong for Sam to judge Kat based on what he saw her put in the collection plate at church. "$3? I'm pretty sure she could have gone further." For all we know, Kat was giving the last $3 she had despite living paycheck to paycheck. Who knows. Or perhaps Sam's judgment was right just by chance and Kat could have given $30 but knew by doing that, she'd have to hold out on buying filet Mignon (which doesn't justify Sam's judging -- it's just coincidence in this case). But even if Sam wasn't in the scenario and regardless of what Kat put in the collection plate and why, God still knows and He will either bless her for it or will regard what she did as greedy and prideful depending. I'm not inclined to think He'll be indifferent about it.

    Some preachers have been sneaky about getting more funding. When I was in grade school, my family left one church because the head pastor wouldn't ease off on the funding. "We're [x amount] still behind," he said at the pulpit. "You all didn't pray hard enough and giving back to God what you owe Him."
    KingJ likes this.
  5. If most christians would just put 10% into the bank for a rainy day, they'd never be in debt!
    Major likes this.
  6. Um..dont know what you talking bout abdicate.
    Jesus forgives all our debts.

    Actually theres a ministry called CAP christians against poverty that helps people budget and pay off their debts by consolidation. Many become christians because of this ministry.

    We all ought to keep short accounts...and Jesus never asks us to pay him anything. He paid it all wit his own precious blood. There is no price on that.
  7. If youve borrowed money you are a slave to the bank. Its wrong that govts encourage this. Like student loans, subprime mortgages etc. 'investment' the debt is going to fall onto the next generation and no matter how hard they work will never pay it all off. Think US in debt to tune of trillions.

    It is modern day slavery.
  8. Third world countries too. Its criminal.
  9. Many ppl decieved and must learn budgetting, cos they covetous and want things now, but a,so govts are to blame. They spend money they dont have like water, many politicians on themselves.
  10. Its not that simple abdicate.
  11. Btw church is not a bank.
    Our treasures in heaven. Some cant even save 10 percent as cost of living is so high. Dont get paid enough. Also govts do steal our money, call it taxes, but dont use it properly. They invest it in other things, calling it saving. Some wont even let you have your own savings unless you put it into a house, encouraging you to go into further debt, since land prices are so high.
  12. Actually, the local church acts as the OT storehouse. We contribute to where we are fed from. god is very generous to us, allowing us to do what we need and want with 90% of our income, while only requiring 10%.

    To bring in one's tithe can be a very difficult thing to do if one has not done it before and one's finances are such that one is living from pay to pay. We found it hard when we realized the truth about the tithe, and the pain of living the way we were was just like the curse associated with not tithing, so we asked God to help us, and so we started with 2% and gradually worked our way up to the full 10%, and within 18 months, we were debt free as a benefit! God honoured our obedience! We had never been debt-free in our lives! This kind of situation can afford people to add offerings to their tithe.
    Arrie03 and Fish Catcher Jim say Amen and like this.
  13. Amen! Paul says to bring what you can.

    1 Corinthians 16:2 KJV
    Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. ​
  14. When we talk about Christ paying our debt through his death, understand our accepting this and submitting to him is only the beginning. From the point of our acceptance of Christianity, we proceed a life of service and giving in His name. It might be done in different vocations (some are married, some are single, some are wealthy and some may be poor), but regardless of our different vocations, an act of giving and service is still a mission we must take. What it is we are doing and giving is what may differ.
    Abdicate likes this.
  15. Lanolin Hello,
    You seem to be mixing scriptures together and confusing the issue.
    Jesus paid all of our depts..............Yes sister He did However.........this is NOT about money in any way. He took our SIN for us. He paid our dept in Hell. NO unsaved man will ever suffer as Jesus did in those hours He was in hell. No man can, for no human being can ever carry that much sin as Jesus carried, EVERY SINGLER SIN-PAST-PRESENT-FUTURE. He carried sins that has not even happened yet. He took it all for us and GAVE US HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Him with our sin and us with His righteousness. That is your dept paid sister.....

  16. Lanolin Hello again,

    Why do you slander other servants of God like this ? Have you not read or studied or even heard any anointed servant of God teach on this. Let me be blunt.......it's NOT a good thing to do and in the eyes of our Heavenly Father, our robes must look very, very off white to put it nicely.

    First of all, Pastors and Preachers are anointed servant of God. One is not any better then the other. They pastor a flock or congregation of the body of Christ. These members give form their hearts and there are those there that don't. They are not fleeced for their life savings or money. No one is forced to give.

    Now about the new buildings. So what is that to you if Jesus wants a bigger building ? LOL

    Sorry I just like that line in John...What is it to you if I want this man to live until I come back.

    Ok back to the point........If God wants them to get a bigger building then all they should do is YES SIR I am ready to be commanded....God may know there will be problems down the road with the old one or they may have out grown one or God is getting ready pour out His spirit and send many their way.....

    It is not that easy meeting in houses all the time. It is not practical either. I would also Caution you sister to stop accusing Gods Holy Servants of twisting scripture. This is not anything we are called to do. God is more then able to take care of His own.

    I just wanted to bring this to your attention sister because with an attitude as this, well you are limiting what God can do for you and will do for you and giving the devil right to enter into your affairs......... Mark 11:25 is only but many hints of requirement or commands of God.

    25... And when ye stand praying, FORGIVE, if ye have AUGHT AGAINST ANY; that your Father which is in Heaven may FORGIVE YOU YOUR TRESPASSES.

    This means forthwith or straightaway which means RIGHT NOW !! If you forgive any aught then you can not be speaking against them......even if you THINK you know or feel you know or from others who claim to know.......we do not have the right.

    I hope this falls on ears that hear........I can only say this now because I was once like this and God got a hold of me and set me straight.......I wont be doing that ever again.........NO, not for the best slip in the marina or anchor ball. ; )

    Blessings and Love Lanolin

  17. I must say that I shudder when I hear a sermon teaching that Jesus fulfilled the Law and therefore it no longer applies to us.
    It seems to me that there is a balance to be achieved between the 'Law' and justification by faith in Jesus.
    It is not that there is some sort of fine line to be drawn, it is that there needs to be a more skillful exegesis of the passage most frequently used misused to do away with the necessity of the Law. As Paul rightly observed:
    2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,

    Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
    Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

    Notice that Jesus says that the Law will not change till all be accomplished.. Ask:
    Has heaven passed away?
    Has the Earth passed away?
    Has Jesus returned and taken His saints away to eternal life?
    No? well then the Law is still valid...according to Jesus.
    So then a fair question would be "what did Jesus mean....fulfill them"?

    Luke 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
    John 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
    Act 28:23 When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.
    Can we notice that these passages are about Jesus, not about us.

    There are plenty of passages that teach that Jesus has set the captives, (us) free....Just not Matt 5:17,18. IMNSHO
    Luk 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
    I believe the Law still stands, but Jesus has freed us from bondage under the Law.. a Law we simply can not keep.
    Major likes this.
  18. Greetings calvin,
    Look at verse 20. (Matthew 5)
    20... For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed (t) the righteousness of the pharisees, ye shall in NO CASE enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
    ( the pharisees were operating under the law and curse )(NO FAITH)
    NOW (t) is to Romans 10:3
    3...For they being being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, HAVE NOT SUBMITTED themselves UNTO the Righteousness of God.

    The law was done away with or made void..........any one who tries to live under the law will fail for the law is as to a curse. That is why it is said we are redeemed from the curse of the law. ( Galations 3:13 ) No one can enter the kingdom of Heaven through the law.......Only by Gods gift of Righteousness through Christ Jesus......So yea it stands if someone digs it up and tries to use it.
    Euphemia likes this.
  19. Yes I thought I made it clear that I was addressing only a poor exegisis relating to v17,18 and in no way attempting to re assert the Law.
    According to Jesus this is not so..not one jot, not one title, until all be fulfilled. Did I miss His second coming?:eek:
  20. #20 Fish Catcher Jim, Mar 18, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015
    Brother relax.....I just added to what you said....sheesh....one part any way........
    What is your point to me here ?
    Question what law are you talking about ?
    10 commandments ?
    Or the 613 do's and donts of the Law of Moses ? OT laws that were added !
    Big difference in them..........

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