Ot And My Views On It.

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Brian J. Rivera, Jul 13, 2014.

  1. To be honest I'm not against anyone that holds the OT to be completely true. I support and and even defend the belief that I do not hold. Tell me what you think of my views on the old testament and even some other views. I actually switch between a few views so it gets pretty complicated.

    My views: current* I do not know.
    While I do accept that some content is god inspired I'm unsure about other laws. I personally think that the israelites copied many laws from others. I also believe that they were heavily influenced by the code of hammurabi. I consider many of the stories in the old testament to be just religious stories. (Like Job, abraham, etc.) That doesn't mean that they cannot be god inspired though and important. To be honest the babylonian talmud seems to be a sort of double edged sword. While it does help with interpretation they rabbis get a lot wrong.(such as stating beating slaves is acceptable)
    Anyway those are my 2 cents on the idea. I do not flat out reject it but i am skeptical about a lot. Lastly I also have another theory it's basically that we have to extract the human interpretation from the word of god.

    Other views: the old testament god is not compatible with Jesus. Jesus just agrees with the Hebrews theology about the nature of god.

    The OT is completely literal

    Tell me what you think about these views.
  2. When reading the old testament I think its a good idea to remember everything had a purpose. Even the most conservative orthodox Jews now days don't believe in instituting the death penalty in the cases of many laws that were imposed at the time, notwithstanding that it would be the "proper" punishment.

    Anyways, as far as Jews re-purposing old moral codes I insert some of my own postulates regarding world religion. That is, I believe that since we are all ultimately derived from the same God, a third of our moral perception is self evident (with the other third coming from the Bible and a final from sacred tradition). In that case it would make sense for other religious traditions to apply similar morals to their own religion. So, I know what your thinking, what makes us right and them wrong? Well, Christianity is the largest world religion, and if you combine it with the other Judeo-Christian religions (viz. Judaism and Islam) you have a majority of the human population, with most others identifying with Hinduism or its derivatives (i.e. Buddhism). So, just at that end, the fact that Judeo-Christianity has come to dominate the religious world this all provides confirmation of its morals.

    Now, from a theological perspective to a more human one, do not be of the mindset that you must understand the books at first glance. Allow yourself the capacity to cosign yourself to a "not understanding" state. This shows humility. It would be unwise to simply say, since I don't understand it, it must not be true. That would be arrogant.

    Finally, understand that the revelations in the OT tended to come at times of great spiritual uncertainty. In fact, with just a few exception, namely the Pentateuch, Samuel, Kings, Judges, Esther, Psalms, Proverbs, Hosea (and a few others), all the other prophets were sent to warn Israelites to come back to the path of righteousness. So, when it seems harsh, yes it is. But, it's also like if you only see a parent disciplining their child, that would seem like child abuse. The totality of God's revelation to His people has come with the New Testament of Jesus Christ. And in the New Testament you find how God's love and his wrath work parallel to each other, but also that the greatest thing in this world is love which is to see the face of God.

    So, the New Testament completes the Old Testament, it does not superseded it. They complement each other, they don't contrast. At least not if you have a deep understanding. But, at the end of the day, the important thing is to have faith in God and in doing good (and in fact the word good comes from the word god).
    Huntingteckel and KingJ say Amen and like this.
  3. I can't help but just to admire the Ten Commandments, it is very concise and address the very basic where I found lacking the other earlier or contemporary ancient laws....

    no.1 to 3 defines our identity, who, where, what we are .....

    no. 4 our physical limit: this rest day was applied by modern labor laws, maybe more so to aligned commerce, but as I observe it is more of a physical need, a balance from work and rest....

    no. 5: the very basic of human society: the family

    no. 6: respect of life: the dignity of human life

    no. 7 relationship of husband and wife: faithfulness

    no. 8 deals with property, ownership

    no. 9 relationship with commerce, doing business

    no. 10 deals with what is in our hearts...
    KingJ likes this.
  4. anyway, suggest you read/ contemplate on Matthew Chapters 5, 6 and 7.....

    Jesus explains the law.....

    Very true with the observance of those who heard:

    Matthew 7:28-29New King James Version (NKJV)
    28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
  5. #5 Brian J. Rivera, Jul 13, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2014

    OK I can't tell if you're serious or just joking. Anyway I have yet to receive one death threat from someone on this website. To be honest I'm not sure how serious I should take you....you seem(NO OFFENSE) like....a....joker

  6. Just read all of those chapters. I do not know what exactly you wanted me to see besides the fact that Jesus came to fulfill the law and it would not pass until it was fulfilled. Can you please elaborate more?
  7. The first three are about God, you left him out of your post entirely.
    KingJ likes this.

  8. No need for the rude comment friend, just trying to help out a newcomer. Take care.
  9. I agree with Murphy ''They complement each other, they don't contrast. At least not if you have a deep understanding.''

    The more one studies the OT the more we see God's goodness. Whenever someone says the OT God was bad and the NT God is good they just show their ignorance. This is crystal clear with your slavery study for example.
  10. What about the other 603 laws?

    Are they not as good as those ten?
  11. #11 KingJ, Jul 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
    Of course they are. I don't see Aha's post as suggesting they don't.

    God listed the things that irritate Him most and they were those ten. There are a million things that we do that irritate Him. Moses mentioned a lot more of them. Today, the Holy Spirit makes us aware of much more then 613 laws.
  12. We find Jesus quoting OT verses so often. Entire OT points to NT. We see Jesus fulfilling so many OT prophesises. If OT is not fully God inspired, then promise of Messiah is not true. If the promise is not true, then fulfillment is also not true. Then Jesus is not Messiah. Then Christianity is a false region. I just putting together a vague argument. I don't see someone believing in NT alone and fully believe Jesus is Lord. If someone truly believes Jesus is Lord, then Holy Spirit will certainly reveal the purpose of OT.
    KingJ likes this.
  13. Yes, thanks, I agree..... with that I think it deserves an explanation : )

    A short explanation:
    It is more of personal, a literary tool…..in the same manner I prefer to use “scripture” rather than “word of God”…
    I don’t know, am thinking..... maybe out of fear, reverence to “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain”….

    A long explanation:

    Proverbs 29:18King James Version (KJV)
    18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

    IMO/POV: That Proverbs can mean also a nation without a vision will perish…

    That is why the first steps of a new nation is to establish a constitution….
    The constitution have an introduction, a preamble, an identification of who is speaking: “We the people….”

    In communication: there is the speaker and the listener…. It is a Point of view as well: the POV of the speaker, and the POV of the listener…

    Now, why I used a literary tool like that:

    I can only comment on the POV of the listener….

    As a listener: those first 3 Commandments strikes me as identifying oneself as a listener before the speaker….

    Who: we fear, humble ourselves, humble = humus = ground = dust = we are simply dust…
    Where: we are created.
    What: we do not worship the created.

    Hope that clarifies....
  14. The point I was trying to make is that we are no longer under the Levite ways.

    As Christians we have the Two Great Commands that make true all 613. Including those ten that people just can't seem to get out of their heads.

    Christians only have 2. We need to remind everyone that we don't have ten or 613 we have 2.
    KingJ likes this.
  15. Agreed. But....obeying the two makes us appreciate the ten and the other 603.

    If we love God....how much more mindful must we be of the fact that God considered adultery in His top ten?
  16. For one, it contains the Matthew's Antithesis…
    • Murder
    • Adultery
    • Divorce
    • Oaths
    • An eye for an eye
    • Love for enemies
    Matthew's Antitheses is the traditional name given to a section of the Sermon on the Mount[Matt. 5:17–48] where Jesus takes six well known prescriptions of the Mosaic Law and calls his followers to do more than the Law requires. Protestant scholars since the Reformation have generally believed that Jesus was setting his teaching over against false interpretations of the Law current at the time.

    Is it “to do more than the Law requires” or “against false interpretations”? i think it can be one or can both....

    or IMO/POV: it can be more on the Teacher is teaching us what is more important: substance over the legal form….


    “Equity regards substance rather than form."

    Equity will not permit justice to be withheld just because of a technicality. Formalities that frustrate justice will be disregarded and a better approach found for each case. Equity enforces the spirit rather than the letter of the law alone.
  17. The 10 were the Covenant made at Horeb....also many ancient Rabbis believed anywhere where it is written "Thus saith the Lord" or "the Word of God came to me saying" is God's unalterable word. All else is History, Poetry, Narrative, etc., about God and the people of God....I would add to that the words of Jesus Himself and the word He gave to those that God gave Him (the writings of the Apostles)....but so not forget what Jesus said in John 17..."Father sanctify them by the truth, your word IS truth" not might be or contains, IS...so I do not believe it is possible to genuinely be a Christian (follower of Jesus) or saved (have eternal life, i.e., the Holy Spirit living in you) and say Jesus was in error or that He lied!

    And no, Moses did not copy (steal or otherwise) the 10 commandments (or the other 603 commandments) from Hammurabi’s Code. However, I do understand how a person raised without the knowledge of God in today’s world may see some similarities and make this connection, although to me such leaps are illogical.

    So let me begin here. 1 Kings 6:5 (a History book) reveals that the exodus occurred 480 years before Solomon began to build the Temple (966 B.C.), so the exodus occurred around the mid 1400–1500 B.C. period. Also I would not rely on the 1700’s date for Hammurabi as this is derived from the “conventional chronology” used by (contemporary) today’s liberal (biased) historians and it has been proven to be off by at least 2 centuries in almost every case. Because of this they say Joshua did not come to the land at the time of Jericho’s destruction…they claim he was 200 years too late, but the truth is all the Archaeologists who explored the remains (5 of them) not taking sides, by just the evidence alone, date the destruction at exactly the same time as Ai, Hatzor, etc., 200 years earlier (right at the time the Bible places him there).

    Their excuse is justified because they misjudge who Pharaoh was at the time of Moses, and move that incorrect date backwards misplacing Joseph and forward misplacing Joshua. I assure you they do this quite intentionally though claiming objective scholarship and never (and never will) admitting the truth. The misdating of Joshua’s arrival is based on the use of the alleged “conventional chronology” applied by Dame Kathleen Kenyon (but see also the work of John Garstang, Ben Tor, and many others).

    So for example, just because Confucius in 600 B.C. said “do not do to other what you would not want done to you” does not mean Jesus secretly went to China and stole the idea from the Confucians. How about it just makes sense! Oh! And then since He was God He may have shared some of His light with people other than Jews (Seth, Noah, and Abraham for example were not only not Jewish, but they were not even of the Children of Israel who were Jacob’s 12 offspring, they were what Jewish people today would call “gentiles”). God gave others seeking Him insights as well though in no comparison to the revelation given through Israel. Truth is given and discovered elsewhere at various times (2 + 2 = 4 no matter here, there, on the moon, in the past, the future, etc.,). The Bible NEVER claims to contain ALL the truth, it claims that all it contains is true (that is quite another matter).

    Next, the Bible tells us that God has placed a measure of faith in every man. By this inner witness there are certain things that all people intrinsically sense are just plain wrong, or not fair. And the basis of many early sets of laws are simply the application of this inborn human wisdom (by experience) and/or agreement by the community or culture, that these things are not good, taboo, or must be avoided. In other words, you do not need to hear from God to know murder is wrong. Even in a most primitive culture who does not know of God as we perceive Him, if you kill the King/Chief or rape his wife they will be coming for you...no matter where you run and if caught you will be punished/tortured/killed! As for other laws, consider gravity…it is only logical from experience…i.e., one learns quick enough not to stick one’s hand into the fire - AaeeiiiAHHHH!!!...screaming very loudly was probably the first universal term for fire, which led to a rule or law about what THOU SHALT NOT do regarding this bright warm twinkly stuff!

    So, before Hammurabi came along, the great, great grandfather of all people alive today (we call him Noah) already understood and respected many things lawfully, some from experience and some given him from God...for ex. Godly marriage is one husband one wife for life, with mutual regard and respect, the need for rest, the observance of the Holy, not to murder, don’t eat the spotted mushrooms, and so on. Since there were settlements and cities from even before Noah's time there were pre-Hammurabi and pre-Torah understandings of “property” and “ownership” and “trading” and “bartering”, etc.

    Because there were couples who were “husband and wife”, there also developed cultural guidelines as to what this meant and what governs those relationships. People like Hammurabi, whether under direction from some god/demons or name for God as they understood Him (like Marduk, but thats another whole discussion) or the true one and only God (known to mankind long before he was born), merely are counted as the person who “codified” or wrote them all down. In fact, when we discovered the pre-flood city of “Sippur” (literally “Booktown”, the worlds first library, from centuries before Hammurabi) we found 1,000’s of clay Tablets with all kinds of materials even civil and criminal laws and punishment/rewards, and what constitutes divorce, as well as books on math, astronomy, medicines, etc.,!

    So Moses received what was essential for YHVH’s covenant with Israel (a conditional covenant that did not promise salvation but blessings and curses on their land, persons, property, etc., see Deuteronomy 28) from YHVH. Whether or not some of these understandings were common to others in other times and cultures, or not, is irrelevant. And even foreknowledge of these rules/laws in history, is likewise irrelevant. In addition, there are many things in Hammurabi’s Code that the Bible does not discuss and many things in the Torah not considered in Hammarubi’s code, for example Commandments 1,2, and 4 of the big 10 are nowhere mentioned in Hammarubi’s code.

    So in conclusion, the person who told you this, or the website article...whether intentionally or unintentionally, is just straining at the gnat and swallowing the camel whole in an attempt to discredit the Bible and it’s God, and to steal the joy and squelch the faith of those who might believe and be saved, through philosophies of vain deceit after the rudiments of the world which is ruled by the god of this world, which is his/her god after their “self”!

    I hope this has added some perspective. Here is my advice…just believe God not just “in” Him and He will count your faith as Righteousness (Matthew 6:33; John 3:3-8; Acts 2:37-39; Romans 6:23; Titus 3:3-8). Amen!

    In His love

    KingJ likes this.
  18. The and New and Old testament are the very foundation in which Christianity is built on. How can one believe one and not the other?
  19. I didn't get anything from some website or some "other" person.

    What I am getting at is this whole adherence to the ten is merely out of tradition. Levitical tradition.

    And tradition for traditions sake is of no value.

    We have Two commands given by the King that fulfills all 613 commands.

    We should be teaching The King's words and not what the Levitical Order goes by.

    They are not able to give the God News anyway, so why use them?
  20. I understand your frustration with my post but the point is NO Moses did not borrow the 10 Commandments from Hammurabi....some are obviously not even remotely alluded to in his code (like one and two) and other are given to man innately (that it is wrong to murder, or steal)...some conclusions can be reached by consensus...finally I pointed out that we must not forget that NOAH who was a man of God to whom God audibly spoke is the ancestor of both these cultures...some wisdom must assuredly have been passed on...

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