Osas (once Saved Always Saved) Eternal Security?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Stan, May 27, 2013.

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  1. It IS irrelevant to the OP Mike. They were believers and died because of their overt lie to the body. I did not say they went to hell, and I am amazed you come up with that conclusion based on MY comments.
    Many posters here try to obfuscate or equivocate or both on the OP. I am clear about it and when people like you try to go away from the issue, my obligation is to address that and bring the thread back on course.
    Anyone who believes that if they die after they sin, they go to hell, does NOT understand salvation nor the Bible.
     
  2. How can it be read any other way? Only by welding OSAS glasses to the skull, I guess.
     
  3. *Sigh* You are using Paul's pagan vs. Jewish divine forgiveness ideas to shoot down what I am saying....You know as well as anyone I reckon that Christian's sin regularly without concern about losing their salvation....This would numb anyone to the fact of God deals with sin in the Christian very differently to the pagan sinner.

    It's fine to say the Spirit is in control in the Christian...but if that was 100% the case, matters would be very different in the world, I know.
     
  4. I never said this Fish: therefore who is warping whose words?

    To use my name and then quote "marks" is not kosher.

    These are your words not mine...
     


  5. I agree Rusty. To say we are eternally secure in our salvation but not from sin does NOT make any sense given the comments I have received about how much God loves us.
     
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  6. Mike...Hiding your walk from your local church is quite different than faking it during the Early Church times.
    Today there is 2000 years of "Christian code" that one can mimic: catchwords, looks, attendance, ethic's models, manners, etc.

    In Peter's day there was none of this at all...In fact no NT to quote so freely on any given occasion.

    I think a modern pastor can be hoodooed by most any "half converted" Christian, as your example clearly shows....BUT Peter was not faked out, IMO, but given the gift of discernment by the Spirit for this instant.

    Now as to you idea that God kills to teach lessons and terrify the church....That's another subject and this one is a hard enough slog.
     
  7. Dear Christian Brothers and Sisters---

    (The Holy Spirit through Paul):

    "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you WILL carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus". (Phil 1:6)

    Let's examine this verse closely. First, Paul states he is "confident" about something--and to be confident is to be assured, and quite positive about what you are saying. Secondly, what is Paul confident about? That "He who BEGAN a good work in you will carry it on to COMPLETION". And thirdly, when will that "completion" occur? "The day of Christ Jesus".

    Does Paul categorize which Christians this work will be completed in? Yes, he does. Everyone who has had a good work BEGUN in them will have that work carried on to COMPLETION. And just WHO IS IT that is completing the work that he has begun in all christians? GOD HIMSELF. Perhaps that is why Paul is so confident. Paul is not dependent on himself to arrive safely in Heaven. God will accomplish that in him--just as he promised to.

    Lastly, we need to center in on the word WILL in Phil 1:6. Is Paul confident about something that may or may not happen in the born-again Christian? Does Paul say "if you do this, or if you do that" God will carry his work to completion? No---it is not dependent on US. It is dependent on God. God WILL finish what he started--of this Paul is very confident.

    I mention these things so we may rejoice. If you believe that you are "holding on to God" you have it all wrong. And you will never have assurance or joy. When we realize God is holding on to us then we are truly believing the promises of God. Rejoice Christian! God is faithful! God WILL complete what he started in you!
     
  8. Yes....This is Paul's letter to very specific Christians, Greek formerly pagan Gentiles, 2000 years ago whom Paul personally brought to the Lord. It's about his connection to this fledgling church, otherwise he would not say things like this:

    If your verse, Fish, was for the universal church for all time, why is not this one and why is not Paul alive today? This is in that same chapter, so it is the same heart concern of Paul's.

    Taking things out of context is a bad habit, IMO.
     
  9. Is this supposed to make the verse more acceptable Fish? Do you believe we don't know that God inspired the Bible?
    What EXACTLY does v1 state?

    I'll stick with CONFIDENT thanks. That's how the KJV and five other modern English translation frame it. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Phil 1:6&version=NIV;MOUNCE;NRSV;NASB;NKJV
    We don't need you to amplify the Bible Fish, we see what Paul is conveying. Confidence still doesn't translate into OSAS, especially given v7 where Paul writes; It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart and, whether I am in chains or defending and confirming the gospel, all of you share in God’s grace with me.

    Paul has a special affinity and relationship for the BOC at Philippi, as v1 shows who it is directed to. If I was a Philippian then, I would be confident as well with Paul always praying for me. I'm pretty sure given Paul was taught BY Jesus, that the Holy Spirit would make him confident in what he prayed for. He sure ISN'T teaching OSAS.

    NO, he says this TO the people he addressed his letter to, the saints in Philippi. Paul may be speaking truth Fish but he is NOT speaking doctrine. That you pick ONE single verse to try and build your belief in OSAS on and ignore others you have been given that show OSAS doesn't exist, can only be taken as pure stubbornness. You continue to move from verse to verse without addressing what your have been told. Ignoring facts only serves to add to your own bias. Where and what did God promise here?

    Funny how you believe how we are made in God's image, and that He WILL, but that we don't have FREE WILL. Paul is confident in God answering his prayers for the Philippians. He ISN'T praying for ALL born again Christians as you try and assert here. What you have done is eisegete scripture, NOT exegete it.

    It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
     
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  10. That is absolutely dishonest Rusty--and Stan also. The Phillipians letter was not just written to the Philippians, any more than Ttus is writen solely to Titus:


    "To Titus, my true son in our common faith" (titus 1:4)

    Yet ends with:

    Grace be with you all. (Titus 3:15)

    We know Titus was not written to, or for only one man. Phillipians was not written to just the Phillipians. All of the epistles are meant for all Christians. Yes--Paul says he could go home and be with the Lord, or stay to help them. He is making a doctrinal point---that to be absent from the body is to be home with the Lord. But you have got to be kidding if you believe Phillipians was only written to the Phillipians---though God includes it in his New Testament which has been read by millions and millions of people---and is meant for millions and millions of people.

    I literally give up on the two of you----you will twist and warp anything to fit y9ur doctrine. This verse clearly shows that God will work in his beloved, and not stop working until he has accomplished all. Is God directing this promise to only the church at Phillipi? Give me a break---you can't be serious! So, now you are discounting scripture because it too clearly points to salvation forever. Only Philippians are included. LOL
     

  11. 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. 14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain. Philippians 2:12-16
     
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  12. Another ad hominem attack aye Fish?

    There is NO doubt God's word is for ALL mankind, but in the instance of Philippians, Paul's 'confidence' was in God answering his prayers, NOT that OSAS is in play. YOU look for words instead of looking at what is really going on and THAT is called eisegesis. Are you advocating that everyone who reads Titus 1:4 is a true son in the faith of Paul? Context is everything, and taking ANYTHING out of context is to say the least dishonest towards anyone you do it to. You can't even get the point Paul is making in Phil 1:23 and 2 Cor 5:8 in correct context Fish. He is NOT saying "to be absent from the body IS to be PRESENT with the Lord." That again is your doctrinal bias showing. What Paul actually says in 2 Cor 5:8 is: We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
    Then in Phil 1:23 he says: I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far.
    Paul desperately wanted to be with Jesus, but these two things don't happen simultaneously. WHERE does the Bible say we go to be with God when we die? It DOES say Jesus will return and that we will live on a new earth with God in the New Jerusalem.
    Heaven is for God, NOT us. The only human to ever go there was Jesus, however He is also God.
    You insist on running ALL your doctrine into one frame of reference and belief instead of seeing WHAT the scriptures actually teach, and then get upset at those who don't agree with you. FYI, OSAS is a doctrine which you are bound by. I don't teach a doctrine, I expose what the BIBLE says by proper hermeneutical exegesis.
     
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  13. Fish...Why do you call names and think that it's OK? How can you think that this is a fruit of the Spirit?

    Knowing what is specific to a person, group or time and what is for the entire church for all time is an ability given by the Spirit, not your denomination, IMO.....or else one would have to do this:

     
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  14. Clear to me....
     
  15. There was a Jewish rabbi who became a Christian and went on to write Christian commentaries on the bible. When he was old while on his death bed, he asked his sons who the picture on the wall was and they replied - that is our mother, your wife. Then he asked his sons, who is that picture? They replied its a picture of Jesus. The old man said no its not, we are not Christians we are Jews. His mind succumbed to senility and reverted back to a time when before he was saved when he was a rabbi. Did this man who lived such a dedicated life to our Lord lose his salvation?
     
  16. If he here truly saved he could not lose his salvation. Eternal life is a present possession (Jn. 5:24; Phil 1:6;p Hb. 10:14; I Jn. 5:13). The question that is unknown to anyone is: was he truly saved in the first place? Senility is a physical, not a spiritual condition.
     
  17. Gee...If he didn't recognize his wife, he probably wasn't married to her in the first place.
    Probably not Jewish in the first place, either.....Endless speculations...*sigh*
     
  18. To be "saved" is to be born-again. Once one is made a new creature in Christ through salvation the idea of being able to become that old creature again (becoming unsaved) is rather silly. John 6:37 Jesus said "All that the Father has given me will come to me and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." See that word never? It means never.:)
     
  19. I've forgotten his name but you all would recognize him because he was a famous biblical scholar and a born again believer. He did not lose his salvation just because he lost his mind. Psalm 90 teaches us that we get 70 years on average to live fruitful lives unto The Lord, after 70 there is no guarantee that our minds will remain sharp and obviously our bodies won't remain strong either. Praise The Lord that we can have full assurance of hope and trust in Him if we ever enter that state as this beloved Christian man did. Salvation is by grace alone thru faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing. If you do not believe that, then you are not of the faith of the bible and the verses about examining yourself to see whether you are of the faith applies to you.
     
  20. The difference between our faith and every other belief system is the difference between "advice" and "news". Yeshua didn't just come to give advice. He came to bear our debt, to pay for the penalty of our sins (the wages of sin is death), so that we could be free to forgive one another as he forgave us. Its not advice that is the message of the bible, but it is news, good news. The news that God has intervened on our behalf, and has provided forgiveness for our sins.
    We are beings that need unconditional all accepting love. Our problem is that none of us know how to give this kind of love because all of our love is conditional in some way and is self serving. But God who is the embodiment of love, and who does not need love, became a willing sacrifice and gave his life as a ransom for sin. Why? Because we needed love. And so that we could receive the kind of love we as beings so desperately needed - unconditional, accepting love and so that we could become the kind of people he created us to be.

    It's not what we can do for God but what He has done for us. He entered "our world," He took on
    "our humanity," He bore "our sins," He died "our death, "He was resurrected for "our life," He's coming again for "our glorification."
    Paul in his letter to the Romans is urging us on the basis of all that he taught on, on the basis of all that has been done, he urges us to become living sacrifices:
    I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove whiat is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:1, 2 KJV)

    If we have not understood all that the mercies of God has done, if we have not understood doctrinally and theologically deep enough, all that Messiah has accomplished for us, then we have become useless to him. God is calling us to live our lives as living sacrifices unto him. Our problem is, we are so prideful that we are not willing to give up anything for others. When a sacrifice was laid upon the altar there was a great deal of suffering involved, the animal experienced pain and suffering. What are we willing to give up? What are we willing to place upon the altar? So that we can become a blessing to others, and become servants of the Most High God?
     
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