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Osas (once Saved Always Saved) Eternal Security?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Stan, May 27, 2013.

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  1. Today I heard from a mod on another forum I'm on, that said he was a Pentacostal preacher for 20 years then converted to Islam. To me that not only negates OSAS, but enforces Heb 6:4-6

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. Probably wasn't saved to begin with...in my opinion....
     
    Intojoy, Mr. Darby and Major says Amen and like this.
  3. I know a lot will say that but what does Paul say in Rom 10:8-11?
    8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith that we proclaim: 9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart a person believes and is made righteous, and with the mouth he confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
     
  4. I would agree that he was probably never saved in the first place. "For by one offering He has perfected them forever them who are sanctified" (Hb. 10:14). If you are perfect forever in God's eyes, you can never be lost. I struggled with this question many years ago and came to see the perseverence of the saints in the Scripture. "They went out from among us and having gone out from among us we know they were never of us...." (I Jn . 2:19).
     
    Intojoy and Major say Amen and like this.
  5. When someone shipwrecks their salvation they become un-Godly, not a God-fearing Muslim. So I guess at first we would all assume he was not saved. Heb 6:4-6 as you quoted with Matt 16:17 and 1 Cor 12:3 are proof that we cannot truthfully convert from Christianity to another religion. If you know and have touched Jesus, you know and have touched Him.

    However, it is safer to assume that a pastor of 26 years was saved. Many years of inner rebellion built up and has now caused him to rebel against God. He is running from God now. Instead of going to an atheist camp, he desires a lessor extreme and goes to Islam. I doubt he is a good Muslim. We can't judge him as being beyond hope though. He is now simply a prodigal son that needs our prayers.
     

  6. Again just as you take 1 John 2:19 at face value I take Rom 10 at face value. In the case of 1 John, he is writing about antichrists, and in that vane and context I would agree. John stills warns those he is writing to, to be careful and NOT fall away as he writes in verse 24. As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
    There is however other scripture like Heb 6:4-6 that depicts a different story. One of actually experiencing ALL God has to offer through Jesus and then walking away. The late Charles Templeton was a good example of that. Please read the following link.
    http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/bl...n-at-some-point-we-have-to-decide-to-believe/

    There are many other scriptures in the NT, where we are warned to "continue in the faith", or "work out our own salvation". There warnings would NOT be necessary IF the premise of OSAS was a valid one.
     

  7. I don't see Heb 6 saying we become "un-Godly" to use your word. Given all the other warning we are given about anti-christs, accepting Mohammed would definitely fall within those warnings. No doubt Peter had special dispensation by the Holy Spirit, given his calling, and as Paul says, no one can confess Christ except by the Holy Spirit. There just ISN'T any scripture that shows WE can't make a choice down the road to "shrink back" as warned by Luke in Heb 10:38-39. As far as nothing being able to take US away from God the Bible is clear, but that doesn't include ourselves falling back or walking away. The prophecy of the Great Apostasy is proof of that.
    It is funny to hear you label Islam as a "lesser" extreme. Many would think of it as a "greater" extreme. In any event, it is an anti-christ.
     
  8. I asked a Pentecostal preacher one time if they thought you could lose your salvation. he said it was very difficult.
     
    Rusty likes this.
  9. Many, but the only ones that count are the ones from the Bible.

    Hebrews 6:4-6...........
    For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”

    These Scriptures are speaking about unbelievers, who have heard the Gospel, have experienced the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, and have had the opportunity to get saved; but have deliberately rejected Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.

    It is ridiculous to claim that these Scriptures apply to believers, because the Bible uses the word "impossible" in Hebrews 6:4. Is it impossible for believers to repent of their sins and get right with God? Did not Peter repent after denying and cursing the name of Jesus? Yes, he did. Did not king David repent after impregnating Bathsheba in an adulterous affair and murdering her husband, Uriah? Yes, he did. 1st John 1:9 promises that "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." So, clearly, Hebrews 6:4-6 is speaking about the unsaved. A person who rejects the Savior is hellbound, and there is no other hope for them apart from Christ.
     
  10. And your point is.........?
     


  11. I think the operative word here is "lose".
    I don't believe you can lose you salvation as far as it depends on God to keep us. 2 Tim 1:12

    Walking away is another matter. Just as we are saved by an action of our free will, we can walk away or "shrink back" by that same free will. I was saved in a Pentecostal church and have been one ever since, which was in 1971.
     
  12. You did not post a Scripture to consider, so I picked one that included your comment of ""continue in the faith".

    Colossians 1:21-23
    And you, who were once alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard . . .
    Does this verse teach that eternal life can be lost by failing to continue in the faith? no IT DOES NOT!
    ortunately the text is very explicit. Paul says that the Colossians he was addressing were once alienated from God, but were now reconciled to Him by the death of Christ. People who are no longer alienated from God are clearly believers.
    The fact that those being addressed were believers is confirmed by Paul's exhortation to "continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel." This is in addition to Paul's earlier reference to the faith which the readers had in Jesus Christ (1:4). Unbelievers by definition do not believe. They have no faith to continue in, no hope to hang on to.
    The key question is this: What did Paul mean when he said that God reconciled them in order "to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight"? It is a great mistake to view this purpose statement as dealing with the possession of eternal life.


    Then you use........" "work out our own salvation", but again you do not post the Scripture. Allow me to do so.

    Philippians 2:12 (ESV)
    "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".

    The New Testament is clear that escaping hell and getting to heaven is gift (see Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 6:23). Paul meant something else in Philippians 2:12.

    Verses2 & 13 show divine sovereignty and human freedom in coopreration. Our salavation is worked in by the Holy Spirit in answer to faith in God's promises and is worked out through the Holy Spirit by our obrdience to God's will.

    The verse does not say "WORK FOR" your salvation.
     
  13. JACK: The particular verse you alluded to is Phil. 2:12, "...work out your salvation with fear and trembling." The Greek word rendered "work out" is KATAERGADZESTHE meaning to work something from the inside to the outside or allow it to become visible. Let the salvation in you become visible to those around you. It is the same word Paul used in Romans 5:3, "...tribulation works patience" that is: it produces patience. Same idea in James 1:20 that says the wrath of a man never results in the righteousness of God. It really has nothing to do with the subject of eternal security.
     
  14. I agree. The key is in verse 9 that says "But we are persuaded better things of you Brethern, and THINGS WHICH ACCOMPANY SALVATION though we thus speak". Nothing in Hebrews 6:4-6 mentions salvation. But verse 9 does clearly. Verses 4-6 correlates with the "rocky ground" hearers in the PARABLE OF THE SOWER who "believe for a time. but HAVE NO ROOT IN THEMSELVES, and fall away.."

    A true believer in Jesus Christ can never be lost.
     
    Major likes this.
  15. LOL Jack I do have some memory!

    Yes I get what the Greek says, and I don't have a problem with how it is rendered in many English translations, as the following link shows; http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Phil 2:12&version=MOUNCE;NASB;NRSV;HCSB;NIV

    I trust the scholars who do this job of translating, KNOW what they are doing.
    My point is that we don't stop doing or working or performing in our walk with Christ. Doing so is just like not exercising, your muscles atrophy and next thing you know you're having a heart attack!
    Nothing secure in that.
     

  16. Sorry I don't agree. Clearly here these believers are much more than what Jesus referred to in that parable. Crucifying the Son again means you deny your salvation. This is a deliberate act of WALKING away, nothing to do with losing your salvation.

    It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
     
  17. I never said it did.
    Thinking about it more, I agree. If we are truly saved, going to Islam is 100% adultery. But for the unsaved, Christian > religious / God-fearing > un-Godly.
     
  18. Sorry but when I read..."When someone shipwrecks their salvation they become un-Godly", and then addressed Heb 6:4-6, I took it to mean that you thought the shipwrecking was what Heb 6:4-6 was talking about.

     
    KingJ likes this.
  19. What amazes me about those who believe a child of God could once again turn away and be lost, is that we are made
    in the image of God. Will a good EARTHLY Father ever renounce their own child? Even if that child is in total rebellion, shouts "I hate you!" and turns to a wicked path, a good earthly father will never say "You are no longer my child". Yet there are those who believe that God the Father is less of a Father than an earthly father might be.

    They actually teach that the Heavenly Father will ALLOW one of his children to turn their back on him and walk right back into Hell. Wait a second, who is holding onto whom? Do we hold onto God, and when we let go we're finished? Or is God holding onto us, as a child he will never lose? I think the latter. God is a Father---God is a Good Shepherd----he pursues his children---he chastizes his children---he uses his rod and his staff on His children.

    Those in Hebrews 6:4-6 are not children of God----how do we know that? They are ABLE to turn away for good--to apostasize. Those in Hebrews 6:9 CANNOT apostasize. That is why the writer says "we are persuaded better things of you BRETHREN, and things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION" (Heb. 6:9). He steps back for a moment in 6:4-6 to speak of those who are convicted, and yet reject the Gospel. He then turns back in verse 9 to those who have truly believed and become children of God.

    To teach a believer may be lost, in my opinion, is to greatly malign the very character of God, and his deep love for HIS OWN.
     

  20. You are apparently reading but NOT comprehending. Heb 6:4-6 says nothing about being lost or losing salvation. It talks about falling or walking away. Our choice. It ONE thought.
    It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming ageand who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.


    Your perception of what makes a good father and WHO God is are not required to be compatible nor should they. These scriptures are talking about a person and what they do by an act of their own free will, not how God loses them.


    The Bible and here, Luke, teaches this. Just as we were saved by an act of our free will, we can walk away by the same free will. It does sound though that you are of Calvin so I guess you won't agree with this. Regardless, it is a fact.
    Heb 10:38-39 show people do fall away or as Luke puts it in these scriptures, "shrink back".



    This is a totally blind observation. Did you not READ these scriptures?
    have once been enlightened,
    have tasted the heavenly gift,
    have shared in the Holy Spirit,
    have tasted the goodness of the word of God,
    have tasted the powers of the coming age,

    These ARE believers pure and simple.


    To see the words who have fallen away and not see those words but conclude they say lose your salvation, is not reading with your mind, it is reading with your bias.
    If you sit is a bus and your wallet drops out of your pocket onto the floor, that is LOSING your wallet. If you sit on a bus and put your wallet on the seat deliberately and then leave the bus, that is walking away. Can't see how you think this is the same thing.
    But of course if you are a full fledged Calvinist, then this is all part and parcel of the teaching you have received.
     
    KingJ likes this.
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