Old or New Earth.

[Major]

At this point going off what little I know, and really have not searched for an answer..... I tend to think that the earth is not as old as the people who study the dinosaur bones say. It's difficult for me to trust the words of anyone whom believes in the fact that we came from apes and that the first people just communicated in grunts and ughs.

God created Adam and eve in His image and likeness. God is super smart and communicated with them intelligently, plus being that Adam named all the animals and such is proof enough to me that they were very intelligent. Just looking at early Scriptures of Genesis is more proof.

I also believe that the Jews always have been and still are the entrusted caretakers of the Scriptures. I also believe that each day of creation was an actual day. And some day I will do the research to find out if my thoughts line up with Scripture.

Right now there are so many other things that I need to be mindful of and training myself in, so this, for now, has to take a back seat.

Blessings and thanks for asking.... if I get any answers I'll let ya know

I think that we are missing the point here.

What is it that the church is supposed to do? Some think that it is to be political and some think it is to change the world. Some think that it is to promote wealth and fame.

Mark 16:15.............
"15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

We are to spread the saving grace of God through the belief in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are to do that for all people. To do that we as Christians must be able to give that message out to those who are rooted in science.

Just so that we all will understand this, please know that the unsaved world laughs at Christians who hold to a Young Earth view, in particular concerning the matter of dinosaurs. We live in a world where most people are thinkers and they know bogus teachings when they hear it. IMO, It is simply absurd to claim that dinosaurs roamed the earth 4,500 years ago. IF.....IF we are are reach the world for Christ we must have the ability to reach those people as much as everyone else.

As evidenced right here on CFS very few Christians know how to reconcile the reality of dinosaurs with the Genesis flood of Noah's time and the account of Creation in the Bible. Because of that fact many people just like Matt Damon walk away lost and on there way to hell.

Mr. Damon made a comment about potential U.S. Presidential candidate Sarah Palin in 2008, implying that he would never vote for someone who believes that dinosaurs roamed the earth 4,000 years ago. Can you blame him? I have a problem with that claim myself. Albert Einstein said, “Religion without science is blind.”

1st Timothy 6:20 warns us about “science falsely so called” (such as the lies of Evolution); however, if we also reject legitimate science in ignorance, then we only discredit ourselves as Christians and we are not following the commission of Jesus to spread the gospel to all the world. That is our mission!!!!

It's important that Christians be scientifically correct as well as Biblical correct if they want people to respect their opinion and listen to them.

Psalms 102:25, “.......
Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.”

The human race is indeed only 6,000 years old and the advancement of civilizations (languages, inventions, medical, industry, et cetera) clearly evidence this fact.
However, IMO.....the earth is very old. I have no problem with scientists estimating that the universe is 12 billion years old. It may be several Trillion years old for all we know.

What I do know is that the Hebrew shows in Genesis 1:2 that the earth which God created became without form, and void and dark; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. The Bible says God's Word NEVER returns void. Isaiah 55:11,......
“So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.”

Everything that God has ever created is good. Only sin destroys good. God never created a devil. God never created a fallen man. God never created an earth that is void.

 

[Ravindran]

Right now there are so many other things that I need to be mindful of and training myself in, so this, for now, has to take a back seat.

Amen! Creation and eschatology are 2 doctrines people always fight about. One about beginning and one about end. But Bible only touches on these topics. There is entire Bible dealing with things in between So much else to learn. I do agree creation and eschatology should take back seat compared to what is happening right now

 

[Ravindran]

Mr. Damon made a comment about potential U.S. Presidential candidate Sarah Palin in 2008, implying that he would never vote for someone who believes that dinosaurs roamed the earth 4,000 years ago. Can you blame him? I have a problem with that claim myself. Albert Einstein said, “Religion without science is blind.”

I don't think he would have liked Sarah Palin if she believed in evolution. This is a lame excuse. This is a lame argument from atheists. They argue that if we cannot agree on 1st chapter of Genesis, how can we trust rest of the Bible. Many people fall for this trying to prove their scientific beliefs through Bible. Which is exactly what we should avoid. Bible supports creationism. We need to stand firm on that. Bible does not address young vs old earth explicitly. There is nothing wrong in having belief. It does not mean we say others are stupid for not thinking our way.

 

[Ravindran]

It's important that Christians be scientifically correct as well as Biblical correct if they want people to respect their opinion and listen to them.

Scientists deny existence of God. Christians will not be accepted as scientifically correct. Majority of scientists believe in evolution and not creation. Christians would never be "correct" in the eyes of scientists.
Our discussions with the world should not be about age of earth. We should not even bring it up. We should focus on the condition of life rather than speculating on age of earth (which provides no value)

 

[Major]

Scientists deny existence of God. Christians will not be accepted as scientifically correct. Majority of scientists believe in evolution and not creation. Christians would never be "correct" in the eyes of scientists.
Our discussions with the world should not be about age of earth. We should not even bring it up. We should focus on the condition of life rather than speculating on age of earth (which provides no value)

I must disagree with you brother. Not all scientists deny God no more than do all politicians or medical doctors do. The Lost are people who are everywhere in all sorts of walks of life.

Again, the commission from Jesus was "Go ye into all the world".

Now when a lost man comes to you and says...........
"I would like to know more about Jesus but I have a problem with the Creation of the earth being 6000 years old".......do we say to them.......
to bad, take it or leave it because that it the way it is when in fact most of us do not know the way it is?
Or do we say to them............I am not going to talk to you about that.

Isn't the question all by itself a condition of life for that person?

Shouldn't we try to make the effort to explain our position rationally and Biblically. I live in a town with a small University in it. Stetson University is its name. I promise you that personally I have had many young college students visit with me and talk with me and ask about the Creation question.
I have been able to us this as a an effective tool in leading many to Christ who just could not accept the 6000 year position that most believe but actually do not know why.

 

[Major]

I don't think he would have liked Sarah Palin if she believed in evolution. This is a lame excuse. This is a lame argument from atheists. They argue that if we cannot agree on 1st chapter of Genesis, how can we trust rest of the Bible. Many people fall for this trying to prove their scientific beliefs through Bible. Which is exactly what we should avoid. Bible supports creationism. We need to stand firm on that. Bible does not address young vs old earth explicitly. There is nothing wrong in having belief. It does not mean we say others are stupid for not thinking our way.

My dear brother. The example of Mr. Damon's comment was the actual thinking of a great many people. They reject the Bible because they can not correlate their lost condition with an unyielding theological position that can not answer their questions. If we can not explain realistically and Biblically how we got to be here, how can we expect to explain to them where we are going to be eternally????

In other words, if we can not build a firm foundation, how can we expect the roof to not leak when it rains??? A firm foundation always begins in the beginning.

 

[Ravindran]

In other words, if we can not build a firm foundation, how can we expect the roof to not leak when it rains??? A firm foundation always begins in the beginning.

Hello brother major. I think this is exactly where we have disagreement My point is that, age of earth should not be foundation for belief in Jesus Christ. A firm foundation would be belief that God created universe and earth. It was created through His spoken word. God created Adam and Eve and that is the starting point of history. When it exactly happened need not be a foundational truth.

It would make sense Bible does not talk about age of earth. Jesus is Alpha and Omega. Jesus is beginning and end. Knowing beginning and end is not for humans. Jesus did not say when He would come back. He did not give timeframe for that. He told how it would happen and not when. He talked about signs so that we can be aware of the seasons. Same way, we are told how everything came into existence. Not when.

Bible is about our present relationship with Jesus and what He did on the cross. It should not be about these timelines.

 

[Christian Guy]

My dear brother. You are confusing this. This is not about me believing or not believing. You are thinking that I in some way am promoting Old Earth over Young Earth and that somehow I am needing proof from God to believe one over the other.

Brother............I am a believer in the Lord Jesus and I am a believer in the Creation of God just as are you. I am also a committed believer in the Word of God. Please just PM anyone here and ask them that question. Try Abdicate or Fish Catcher Jim for an example as they is well aware of my position with the Word of God. I do not need to see anything to encourage my faith or my belief.

I started this thread to encourage all of us to think and read the Scriptures and to have a lively debate in Christian love.

There is just so much that we can not discuss that I thought this would be a way to pump us all up and encourage discussion without arguments.

So........discuss but please make your concern over my Christian position not one of those points.

Love ya brother!

I'm sorry if I gave you that impression, I certainly don't think that anyway. Let me be clear that this is not a salvation issue. Your OP belief/question: "there has never been any human remains found with any dinosaur bones. Why is that important?" Is what I am questioning along with your belief that the Earth is very old and also that you say the Earth 'looks' old, when in fact that is just repetition of what others say. I mean one rock looks as old as another rock until someone makes you believe that the two rocks are millions of years apart in age. Can you see what I'm saying?

 

[Major]

I'm sorry if I gave you that impression, I certainly don't think that anyway. Let me be clear that this is not a salvation issue. Your OP belief/question: "there has never been any human remains found with any dinosaur bones. Why is that important?" Is what I am questioning along with your belief that the Earth is very old and also that you say the Earth 'looks' old, when in fact that is just repetition of what others say. I mean one rock looks as old as another rock until someone makes you believe that the two rocks are millions of years apart in age. Can you see what I'm saying?

Yes sir. I understand. But if an archeologist finds that rock under 50 feet on dirt and laying on top of that rock is a coin with the date on it 7500 BC on it, what then do we think about the age of that rock?????

Of course it is not a salvation issue. I would not have even suggested such a thought. I am only speaking to the teaching that is already in place in the Church today that is Old Earth verses New Earth theology. I am simply throwing out the idea that there may be another explanation so that we all can have a discussion in Christian love and respect.

The fact that no human remains have ever been found in the same location or depth of the earth proves IMO that human existence can not be 6000 years old.
That is the importance of there never having been any remains found and back to that "rock", if that rock was found under a bone proven to be that of a T-Rex, what then is the importance of that rock? It dates that rock! .

It also rules out the idea that dinosaurs lived with humans as is the teaching of New Earth theology.

I am not saying the earth "looks old". I said that The people who take the position of the New Earth use the idea that God created the earth with "Age Built In to it".

That causes me great concern. That to me would be like God deceiving us for some reason or another.
The evidence must be "developed" to fit the Bible’s young earth timeline in those who adhere to the New Earth theology. Those who follow the Old earth creationists do not have this problem. They do not have to “develop” a way to twist the plain evidence of science, so that it appears to be old…it is old!
That is just my own opinion.

It would also be wise to consider 2 Peter 3:8.
"But beloved be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day".

Whenever a scripture verses science debate starts, that fact is usually ignored. If scripture says that something happened 1,000 years ago, science relating to 1,000,000 years ago is in agreement. 1000 times 1000 is 1,000,000.

 

[Major]

Hello brother major. I think this is exactly where we have disagreement My point is that, age of earth should not be foundation for belief in Jesus Christ. A firm foundation would be belief that God created universe and earth. It was created through His spoken word. God created Adam and Eve and that is the starting point of history. When it exactly happened need not be a foundational truth.

It would make sense Bible does not talk about age of earth. Jesus is Alpha and Omega. Jesus is beginning and end. Knowing beginning and end is not for humans. Jesus did not say when He would come back. He did not give timeframe for that. He told how it would happen and not when. He talked about signs so that we can be aware of the seasons. Same way, we are told how everything came into existence. Not when.

Bible is about our present relationship with Jesus and what He did on the cross. It should not be about these timelines.

I here you my brother. Really I do and please do not think I am being argumentative. I am being completely realistic here.

I agree completely with your comments. What I am telling you, all of you for that matter is what has actually been asked to me by the college students we minister to.
These are very smart, rational and educated young people. Personally I am like most everyone else and for many years never gave this any thought at all.

But after about 3 or 4 times of it coming to me I felt that I had to do some real intense work on this. The plain fact is that these people have real questions and if we as Christian teachers can not answer a simple question that is acceptable we will loose these people. It is just that simple.

Here is the problem from their position.............
If a person who thinks "believing the Bible requires belief in a young earth where man lived along side of dinosaurs only 6000 years ago" examines the scientific evidence and concludes "the earth is old," another conclusion may be that "if the Bible is wrong about the earth's age, maybe it's also wrong about the rest," and faith is weakened or abandoned.

You see, if we get the fundamentals wrong, we can mess up all the rest.

 

[Christian Guy]

Yes sir. I understand. But if an archeologist finds that rock under 50 feet on dirt and laying on top of that rock is a coin with the date on it 7500 BC on it, what then do we think about the age of that rock?????

Of course it is not a salvation issue. I would not have even suggested such a thought. I am only speaking to the teaching that is already in place in the Church today that is Old Earth verses New Earth theology. I am simply throwing out the idea that there may be another explanation so that we all can have a discussion in Christian love and respect.

The fact that no human remains have ever been found in the same location or depth of the earth proves IMO that human existence can not be 6000 years old.
That is the importance of there never having been any remains found and back to that "rock", if that rock was found under a bone proven to be that of a T-Rex, what then is the importance of that rock? It dates that rock! .

It also rules out the idea that dinosaurs lived with humans as is the teaching of New Earth theology.

I am not saying the earth "looks old". I said that The people who take the position of the New Earth use the idea that God created the earth with "Age Built In to it".

That causes me great concern. That to me would be like God deceiving us for some reason or another.
The evidence must be "developed" to fit the Bible’s young earth timeline in those who adhere to the New Earth theology. Those who follow the Old earth creationists do not have this problem. They do not have to “develop” a way to twist the plain evidence of science, so that it appears to be old…it is old!
That is just my own opinion.

It would also be wise to consider 2 Peter 3:8.
"But beloved be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day".

Whenever a scripture verses science debate starts, that fact is usually ignored. If scripture says that something happened 1,000 years ago, science relating to 1,000,000 years ago is in agreement. 1000 times 1000 is 1,000,000.

You may think it looks old but I think it looks less that 6000 years old, however these are just our opinions. You say there's evidence to support an old age of the Earth and I say that I have evidence to support a young age of the Earth, again these are just our opinions. You say 2 Peter 3:8 suggests the Earth could be millions or billions of years old, I say it suggests the Earth is only thousands of years old, again this is just our interpretations.

Now I have been saying the above from my very first post on here and am trying to get you to see that no matter what either of us say we can't use any of the above to prove our positions to one another, that is why I said in the beginning we must trust Jesus, and Jesus said that the scriptures can not be discredited, the scriptures give us all the dates to know that the Earth was created just less than 6000 years ago when God made the first man and woman. It is better to trust in the Lord than in man (Psalm 118:8).

 

[HisManySongs]

Scripture does not give an actual age to the universe or the earth. It simply states 'In the beginning...'

If you believe in evolution, you need to have a really old universe.

As for the 'age built in to it' argument, answer the question - how old was Adam when he was created?

 

[Cturtle]

I think that we are missing the point here.

What is it that the church is supposed to do? Some think that it is to be political and some think it is to change the world. Some think that it is to promote wealth and fame.

Mark 16:15.............
"15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

We are to spread the saving grace of God through the belief in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are to do that for all people. To do that we as Christians must be able to give that message out to those who are rooted in science.

Just so that we all will understand this, please know that the unsaved world laughs at Christians who hold to a Young Earth view, in particular concerning the matter of dinosaurs. We live in a world where most people are thinkers and they know bogus teachings when they hear it. IMO, It is simply absurd to claim that dinosaurs roamed the earth 4,500 years ago. IF.....IF we are are reach the world for Christ we must have the ability to reach those people as much as everyone else.

As evidenced right here on CFS very few Christians know how to reconcile the reality of dinosaurs with the Genesis flood of Noah's time and the account of Creation in the Bible. Because of that fact many people just like Matt Damon walk away lost and on there way to hell.

Mr. Damon made a comment about potential U.S. Presidential candidate Sarah Palin in 2008, implying that he would never vote for someone who believes that dinosaurs roamed the earth 4,000 years ago. Can you blame him? I have a problem with that claim myself. Albert Einstein said, “Religion without science is blind.”

1st Timothy 6:20 warns us about “science falsely so called” (such as the lies of Evolution); however, if we also reject legitimate science in ignorance, then we only discredit ourselves as Christians and we are not following the commission of Jesus to spread the gospel to all the world. That is our mission!!!!

It's important that Christians be scientifically correct as well as Biblical correct if they want people to respect their opinion and listen to them.

Psalms 102:25, “.......
Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.”

The human race is indeed only 6,000 years old and the advancement of civilizations (languages, inventions, medical, industry, et cetera) clearly evidence this fact.
However, IMO.....the earth is very old. I have no problem with scientists estimating that the universe is 12 billion years old. It may be several Trillion years old for all we know.

What I do know is that the Hebrew shows in Genesis 1:2 that the earth which God created became without form, and void and dark; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. The Bible says God's Word NEVER returns void. Isaiah 55:11,......
“So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.”

Everything that God has ever created is good. Only sin destroys good. God never created a devil. God never created a fallen man. God never created an earth that is void.

As I can understand all that your saying and agree that our purpose is to be able to reach the lost and preach the good news of the kingdom (which I accept as my part)..... We have to trust that as we pray for those like Mr. Damon and all the scientists, God (the Lord of the Harvest) is more than capable to raise up laborers to minister to them. People like Abdicate, or dr. Caroline Leaf, or whomever....

God promises in His Word that anyone who is seeking Him will find Him. And in Romans He says through the apostle Paul that there is plenty of proff out there that He exists. So any scientist who comes to know Christ will then be able to minister to others in his/her field, and God will cause them to excel and not look like fools.

One has to realize that anything the Body of Christ says or believes is foolishness to the people of the world. And our Lord even said that if they persecuted Him, they will persecute us. So what Mr. Damon or anyone else says is of no concern to me. They believe the lies that the devil has fed them since little little and until they come to know Christ and truly seek His Word and thoughts on this...will only believe like the world.

So the question we should be asking ourselves is do we believe the lies the devil has sold the world, and be conformed to the world, and their way of thinking? Or do we go against the grain And believe The Written Word of God, choosing His thoughts above theirs?

Blessings my friend

 

[Cturtle]

Many people fall for this trying to prove their scientific beliefs through Bible.

People have this backwards...they should believe the Bible to be true over everything and seek to prove what the Word already says causing their beliefs to be conformed to the Word of God.

If Jesus is truly Lord over one's life, then we have no choice but to believe what our Lord has said and Written.

 

[Cturtle]

Hello brother major. I think this is exactly where we have disagreement My point is that, age of earth should not be foundation for belief in Jesus Christ. A firm foundation would be belief that God created universe and earth. It was created through His spoken word. God created Adam and Eve and that is the starting point of history. When it exactly happened need not be a foundational truth.

It would make sense Bible does not talk about age of earth. Jesus is Alpha and Omega. Jesus is beginning and end. Knowing beginning and end is not for humans. Jesus did not say when He would come back. He did not give timeframe for that. He told how it would happen and not when. He talked about signs so that we can be aware of the seasons. Same way, we are told how everything came into existence. Not when.

Bible is about our present relationship with Jesus and what He did on the cross. It should not be about these timelines.

Amen! Some things believers have to take by faith. Trusting that God does not lie, and He has given us the important things that we need to life a godly life in His Written Word.

 

[Major]

Scripture does not give an actual age to the universe or the earth. It simply states 'In the beginning...'

If you believe in evolution, you need to have a really old universe.

As for the 'age built in to it' argument, answer the question - how old was Adam when he was created?

#1......That is absolutely true.

#2.......But it is not true that if you believe in the Old Earth you must believe in evolution.

Those who hold to the Old Earth theology believe that.........

• God miraculously created the universe from nothing (ex nihilo), created life from non-life.
• The age of the earth has no bearing on the creation of life. An ancient earth does not equate with Darwinian evolution.
• Darwinian evolution is unbiblical, biologically untenable, and not supported by the fossil record.
• Old-earth creationists adamantly reject the Darwinian concept of common descent—the hypothesis that all plant, animal, and human life ultimately evolved from primitive single-celled organisms through unguided mutations and naturalistic processes.
• God miraculously created Adam and Eve, humanity’s historical parents, who were new distinct creatures from whom humanity’s sin originated.
• Earth’s geologic features formed over long ages through both gradual and catastrophic processes.
• Genesis 1 is a literal account of God’s creation.
• After God created the heavens and the earth, He then created life over six successive “days,” which in the original Hebrew may be literally interpreted as long epochs of time.

#3......How old was Adam when he was created by God?

That is an interesting question. At first thought wouldn't we say that his age would have been Zero or at the most 1 second.
Then again there is that human "Age Concept" that teaches us he was created with age built in.
Then again as you correctly said.......the Bible does not tell us. It just says that He created Adam from the dust of the ground.

The point I think is that God did create Adam and man did not evolve from lower species.

 

[Major]

Amen! Some things believers have to take by faith. Trusting that God does not lie, and He has given us the important things that we need to life a godly life in His Written Word.

That is very true. No argument from me.

 

[Cturtle]

Now when a lost man comes to you and says...........
"I would like to know more about Jesus but I have a problem with the Creation of the earth being 6000 years old".......do we say to them.......
to bad, take it or leave it because that it the way it is when in fact most of us do not know the way it is?
Or do we say to them............I am not going to talk to you about that.

I think one has to be honest with them and tell them that they will research the subject and let them know. Then go find out what the creation scientists write, all the while praying and asking God to help them see the truth.

If people set parameters or conditions for accepting Christ...they are not ready. It's sad really, but we have to trust that that truth of Gods Word will never return unto Him void, and that the important part is to plant the seeds. God will (if they truly begin to seek Him with all their heart) open their eyes to the truth. But they have to determin within their own hearts to have eyes to see and ears to hear what God's Word already says.

To me it's a faith issue. They desire proof in order to believe, when acceptance of Christ is truly by faith alone. Proof only causes one to wonder.

 

[Ravindran]

I here you my brother. Really I do and please do not think I am being argumentative. I am being completely realistic here.

I agree completely with your comments. What I am telling you, all of you for that matter is what has actually been asked to me by the college students we minister to.
These are very smart, rational and educated young people. Personally I am like most everyone else and for many years never gave this any thought at all.

But after about 3 or 4 times of it coming to me I felt that I had to do some real intense work on this. The plain fact is that these people have real questions and if we as Christian teachers can not answer a simple question that is acceptable we will loose these people. It is just that simple.

Here is the problem from their position.............
If a person who thinks "believing the Bible requires belief in a young earth where man lived along side of dinosaurs only 6000 years ago" examines the scientific evidence and concludes "the earth is old," another conclusion may be that "if the Bible is wrong about the earth's age, maybe it's also wrong about the rest," and faith is weakened or abandoned.

You see, if we get the fundamentals wrong, we can mess up all the rest.

I completely understand where you are coming from. You are not argumentative I hope I am not sounding like arguing here as well
When people bring up age of earth as a barrier to their belief, it is generally not true. They have already shut down their hearts and using this as excuse. If they are really seeking truth, age of earth wouldn't come up. These are arguments generally used by atheists to prove believers are wrong. That Christians do not even know basic things. The reason I say is, a person really seeking truth would search both sides. Such a person would understand that scientists idea of evolution or a firm age of earth is nothing but speculation.

 

[Major]

People have this backwards...they should believe the Bible to be true over everything and seek to prove what the Word already says causing their beliefs to be conformed to the Word of God.

If Jesus is truly Lord over one's life, then we have no choice but to believe what our Lord has said and Written.

You are correct but still missing the point my dear sister. The Bible simply does not give a date for creation at all. It is not that the Old Earth proponents are questioning the Bible, quite the opposite. This is something that the Bible is silent about and the idea that the Bible is not true or anyone is trying to disprove is simply not the case at all.