Offices of ministry

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Cturtle, Dec 5, 2015.

  1. Hi @Major,

    Now you said -

    What ` I see` is that the writer to the Hebrews was referring to –

    `…. so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, & was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him;….` (Heb. 2: 2)

    Then we know that the ascended, glorified, exalted Lord Jesus Christ, at the right hand of the Father gave further revelation to His ascension apostles.

    `how that by revelation he made known to me the mystery …..which was not made known to the sons of men, as it has NOW been revealed by the Spirit to HIS HOLY APOSTLES & PROPHETS.` (Eph. 3: 3 – 5)

  2. I pray that you are richly blessed in your thinking :).
    I fully see why you say what you do, but I don't agree that no one in today's time has not seen Jesus, or that there is no office of prophet or apostle in the church today. But then again that is just me :)
    God bless
  3. No problem sister. All I ask is that you consider and pray about what the ramifications are IF a man was able to see Jesus today.

    Now all I am doing is giving you information. This is not to be understood as an argument but simple the basis of my understanding.

    Paul refers to his ability to perform miracles as "the signs of an apostle".

    Mark 16:20..........
    And they [The Apostles] went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

    This miracle-working power was given to the apostles to bear witness that they were God’s messengers and that they were speaking the very words of God. Many today people operate under the false assumption that all Christians in the early church were working miracles. This is simply not true then anymore than it is today.

    Acts 2:43.........
    "And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles."

    Acts 5:12............
    "And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people..."

    Now this posse a very important logical question. If every believer had this power, why did Jesus need to give it to the apostles? They would have had it already. There is not one miracle performed in the new testament by anyone other than Jesus, the apostles, or those who were directly chosen by Jesus or the apostles.

    Remember, the Bible tells us that no one has ever seen God (John 1:18) except the Lord Jesus Christ. In Exodus 33:20, God declares, “You cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

    Since Jesus is in fact God, how could anyone meet the requirements of Scripture that to be an apostle, one must have seen Jesus?
    No one has ever seen God revealed in all His glory. In our fallen human condition, if God were to fully reveal Himself to us, we would be consumed and destroyed.
  4. My sister, you are missing the point I fear.

    YES, the focus of the writer of Hebrews is that great salvation. Without question that is correct. But read again the last part of that verse.

    "which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, & was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him;….` (Heb. 2: 2)

    There it is!!!! Those who first heard about that GREAT SALVATION which Jesus came preaching about was heard FIRST and then confirmed by the disciples who then became the Apostles after His resurrection. That confirms the Bible teaching that to be an apostle ONE had to have been with Jesus and must have seen Him. THEY saw Him and heard Him.

    Now, no one has to agree with me, but this is not about ME, Please know that. But you in all honestly have to agree that the Bible is clear on this issue. YOU can however say, I do not agree with the Bible or I do not accept this part of the Scriptures or I do not understand all of this at this time. I understand that if you have never heard this it can be very disconcerting to you.

    `how that by revelation he made known to me the mystery …..which was not made known to the sons of men, as it has NOW been revealed by the Spirit to HIS HOLY APOSTLES & PROPHETS.` (Eph. 3: 3 – 5).

    Of course the "context" of those words are all about the function of the Church. Out of God's grace He gave Paul the sacred trust of the administration of responsibility of God's grace to all men. That was given to Paul and it was not by his choosing but from the heart of God through His grace.

    What the mystery then is that up to this time God's revelation was frequent and partial but now it is full and final in Christ Jesus.
  5. I am assuming you also believe that the "gifts" of the Holy Spirit have also been done away, as there is the gift of "working of miracles" as the Spirit wills. Has this also been done away with today?
  6. No one needs to be a "Apostle" to be used by God to perform healing, or miracles as it is the Holy Spirit who decides when and where he disperses his gifts. As it says, "...there are different services...." (1 Cor 12:5) which means different gifts of the ministry, but it is the same God and the same Spirit who works them all. You do not need be in any ministry to be used by the Lord, you just have to be a son of God, and be open to his moving.

    1Co 12:5.. and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;
    1Co 12:6.. and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.
    1Co 12:7.. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
    1Co 12:8.. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,
    1Co 12:9.. to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
    1Co 12:10.. to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
  7. There will never be more than the twelve "foundational Apostles of the Lamb", but there are still apostles today, They would not be called foundational in their work as they are sent ones who usually start new Churches, and teach the Word of God.

    Rev 21:14.. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
  8. #28 Major, Dec 18, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2015
    I do not want to argue this point my brother. I will debate with you but I hope that you respect my thinking on this as I do yours.

    The "Sign Gifts" were those given to the Apostles by Jesus Christ and they could do everything that He did. They only they had those gifts and they ended when John died. That is in fact the doctrine of "Cessation".

    I draw my conclusion as do many others from the Scriptures and what they actually say to me. and those Scriptures are:

    Matthew 28:16-18..........
    "Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
    And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

    Mark 16:14-15........
    "Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

    Hebrews 2:1-4.........
    "Therefore we (Apostles) ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we (It was the Apostles who first heard Jesus) have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
    God also bearing them (Apostles) witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?"
  9. Brother, the gifts of the Spirit are still active today, and no you do not need to be a Apostle, or prophet to be used by the Lord for their operations. There are two things that you must be (1) a child of God, (2) you have to "believe". Without these two things forget about you being used by the Spirit of God using you and his gifts.

    Joh 14:12.. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
    (It did not say only apostles will do these greater works, it said those that believe.)

    Mar 16:17.. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

    (It did not say these signs will only follow the Apostles, It said these signs shall follow them that "believe")

    Obviously, if one is a Christian and believes in his salvation, and yet does not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, they will never be used by the Spirit of God, so, for them these things have passed away. The Lord God does not push anything on someone who does not believe, unless they want to be used by the Spirit of God, which is why it says "desire spiritual gilts" If you are not desiring them, do not worry you wont be used.
  10. All of those words are correct but I am of the opinion that Matthew and Mark spoke "specifically" of the Apostles...The ELEVEN.

    You do not have to agree with me my brother.

    Then we also have the clear words spoken by Paul in 1 Corth. 13:8-10.............
    "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."
    For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

    The only two things that the "Perfect One" can be is Jesus or the Word of God. The Greek grammer in this instance says that the "Perfect One" is NEUTER which in the Greek language means that the subject in question is a THING and not a person.

    That would then make the Bible the Perfect One which again grammatically means, "Mature".

    We have had this discussion and I realize that this is not your perception of thins. That is perfectly fine with me. But it is what is what it is and the grammer of any language can not be changed. It can only be understood and its meaning grasped.
  11. Major,

    I durely do appreciate your thoughtfulness in trying to protect me from getting into some false beliefs. And I do appreciate our sharing what the basis of your beliefs are.

    But my basis is mostly on vs 3 which in my opinion is the answer to why Paul said those things. Plus he saw Jesus and lived, and being that Jesus is not a respector of persons (Acts 10:34) it is my opinion that if a person believes and takes Jesus at His word then they too can do everything that He did and more (John 14.:12) And it is possible for the shekinah glory to fall and envelope a person so thick that they just bask in the presence of the Almighty, and live.

    God bless!
  12. And I agree completely that those who believe are filled with and enveloped in the Holy Spirit so that they, you and me can bask in the presence of Almighty God.

    But I disagree that man today has the sign gifts given to the Apostles.
    Thank you my dear and what you said is absolutely the truth. All I can do is give you my thoughts and understanding and then step aside as you allow the Holy Spirit to expand those words to your understanding.

    Just to show you what I am saying, this miracle-working power was given to the apostles to bear witness that they were God’s messengers and that they were speaking the very words of God. The "sign gifts" were the validation that these men were indeed witnesses of Jesus Christ.

    It is easy to deny the works of the so-called apostles today. They are often heard about second hand, and the tale seems to grow with the telling. There are researchers, many of them medical doctors, who have tried to verify these so-called miracles. What they find without exception is exaggerations, deception and even outright fraud. They find absolutely no evidence that any true miracle has actually taken place. That fact hurts all of us who are Christian believers.

    Compare that with miracles of the true apostles. Their miracles were performed out in the open for all to see. No one could deny them or speak a word against them.

    Don’t get me wrong. I believe that God still heals and performs miracles today in answer to our prayers. What I’m saying, however, is that there are no "Apostles" today. There is "healing" but there are no longer any "healers". one has to agree with me but what I am stating here is the backbone of orthodox Christianity and is not some back in woods theology that no one has heard of. This is the presentation of those who believe in Cessationalism.

    All of you are free to disagree and you are welcome to believe as you think the Holy Spirit is teaching you.

    IMO, it’s easy to spot false apostles today. Since there are no true apostles today, anyone who claims to be an apostle is a false apostle.

    So are there apostles today? NO!

    1) There are no apostles today because the apostles served as a foundation for the early church only.

    2) There are no apostles today because they had to have seen Jesus after he rose from the dead.

    3) There are no apostles today because apostles had to be hand-picked by Jesus.

    4) There are no apostles today because no one today has the miracle-working power of an apostle.

    I am so very blessed that we can discuss this area in love and respect. God bless you!
  13. Hi @Major,

    Thank you for your reply. (#24) Having been brought up in a fellowship that operated in the 5 Headship ministries, I can say from experience that I have seen these operating. They are God appointed ministries that exalt the risen Lord in every aspect.

    Now we know that the ascended, glorified, exalted Lord Jesus, is at the right hand of the Father in glory, building & maturing His Body. We also know that He gave His Holy Spirit to bring the Body members together & set them in the Body, making them like Christ. We know that it is the truth of Christ that we are to believe & grow in.

    For this wonderful work God has made Jesus the Head of the Body & I definitely believe that Christ operates His Headship through the 5 Headship ministries so that we can come to full maturity, as the Body of Christ.

    To not acknowledge, or understand concerning these 5 Headship ministries, only causes lack in our own life, but will not stop the completion of Christ the Head`s wonderful work.

  14. I am sorry but I do not know about the "5 Headship Ministries" so I really can not comment on your explanation.
  15. Ephesians 4:11-12 (KJV)
    And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:​
    1. apostles
    2. prophets
    3. evangelists
    4. pastors
    5. teachers
    Five-fold ministries. That is, the Hand of God.
    Cturtle likes this.
  16. OK.....Thanks.
    Cturtle and Abdicate say Amen and like this.
  17. #37 CCW95A, Dec 22, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2015
    There are four different"types" of Apostles written about in scripture.
    (1) Jesus Christ was an Apostle. Jesus was a one of a kind Apostle as God gave him the Spirit without"measure".

    Heb 3:1.. Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling,consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession,

    Apostle meaning "one who is sent, a messenger". Jesus was sent, and a messenger of God to proclaim the Gospel to men. Jesus operated in all five "ministry" gifts as a Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor and teacher.

    (2) The second type apostle are the"Apostles of the Lamb". The twelve Apostles are in a class of their own. No one else can ever be a Apostle of the Lamb.

    Rev 21:14.. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    These twelve Apostles were sent for to be eyewitnesses of Jesus life, earthly ministry, and resurrection. Their main purpose was to be ministers of the Gospel. They were the first to preach, and teach the Word of God.
    The Apostle Paul would not qualify to be one of these Apostles as he did not follow Jesus from the start to the end of his earthly ministry. There have been around twenty people in the Bible that have been called "Apostles", or "sent ones", but only the original twelve are considered an Apostles of the Lamb. There are only twelve foundations that support the heavenly city, not 13 or 14....ect

    (3) The third type of Apostle would be the Apostle Paul, who helped lay the "doctrinal" foundation of the New Testament. Paul wrote about half of the New Testament, and the revelations he taught did not come from man.

    Eph 3:1.. For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
    Eph 3:2.. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
    Eph 3:3.. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    Eph 3:4.. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    Eph 3:5.. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    The Apostle Paul preached the "revelation" of the Gospel to the early Church saints.We do not need to lay any other foundation which is already laid for us, we are only to build upon that foundation!!

    Eph 2:19.. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    Eph 2:20.. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

    The Apostle Paul tell us this.....

    1Co 3:10.. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

    There are no NEW revelations being given to the Church as a "foundation". Paul warned the Church that we are to take heed to how we build upon that which has already been laid. Even though there are no new revelations as foundations to the Church, but there are new revelations about this foundation which we have already been given.

    (4) The fourth type of Apostle is the what we have today in the Church. They are sent ones, and their apostleship is in a measure unlike other foundational apostles like the original twelve, and the apostle Paul who laid the very foundation of the Gospel. Epaphroditus was called a "messenger" by Paul. The word, "messenger" means "Apostle". Epaphroditus was not an Apostle in the same sense as Paul or the other twelve apostles were. He was "sent" out as a delegate, or representative, or as the commissioned representative of a congregation.
    Today's Apostles are commissioned by the Holy Spirit to bring a specific message or ministry along a certain scriptural lines to the Body of Christ. These modern day “apostles” would also be known as “missionaries” They simply build upon the foundation that has already been laid.
    One of the most notable signs of a Apostle is their anointing to teach, and preach the Word of God, and to start or plant new Churches.
  18. Good info but I am going to re-post my understanding of Apostles:

    1) There are no apostles today because the apostles served as a foundation for the early church only. We should not expect to see apostles today any more than we should expect to see someone laying a building’s foundation on the fourth floor.

    2) There are no apostles today because they had to have seen Jesus after he rose from the dead. The apostles were to bear witness to the resurrection of Christ. To do this they had to have seen him after he rose from the dead. Paul says that he was the last person to see Jesus. Since no one since Paul has seen Jesus, no one since Paul can be an apostle.

    3) There are no apostles today because apostles had to be hand-picked by Jesus. Since Jesus isn’t appearing to anyone today, he isn’t hand-picking anyone, either.

    4) There are no apostles today because no one today has the miracle-working power of an apostle. Apostles were able to heal any physical condition. No case was to difficult. These healings often involved the miraculous recreation of body parts, and even the resurrection of the dead. No one is manifesting this type of miracle-working power today.

    The Bible warns us not to be deceived by false apostles. Since there are no true apostles today, anyone who claims to be an apostle is a false apostle.
    Complete likes this.
  19. There is a strange idea going around and through the church today that every true BORN child of God can be or should become a minister of God as listed in Ephesians .
    This is simply not true and the ones who usually propagate the idea are the ones who seek to justify their own spurious 'calling' and 'authority' by declaring all can be like them.
    Every true BORN child of God is called to preach the gospel of salvation to be able to teach the milk of the Word and to be able to give a good account of the hope that lieth with in them and in as much as they have been led to Christ by the Holy Spirit so by the same way as they have been so led by Him they in turn are to lead others to Christ by the same way.
    But if all were to become teachers who would they teach?
    and if all were pastors who would they pastor?
    and if all are leaders who then will follow?
    IF you are so called to be a minister of God then your ministry will out and find a way .
    But it should be remembered that it is not your ministry but the work of THE ministry to which all the ministers minister to the same end .
    I speak of course of Biblical principle .
    Many a minister has been beguiled with HIS ministry and is building HIS ministry to the detriment of THE ministry and the work and unfolding purposes of God.
    Fighting to the death and in competition with any other 'ministry' that would seem or perceived to be a threat to their 'ministry'.
    If you have a minister of God in your church who is not like that .But loveth the sheep as the lord loveth the sheep and gives his life first to the Lord then to the sheep. Be thankful and very thankful and pray for them with all that you have and are for Gods blessign upon them and to keep them in the work of God and not just be behind them. But be along side them in the battle.

    in Christ
    Marilyn C likes this.
  20. I agree!

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