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Offices of ministry

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Cturtle, Dec 5, 2015.

  1. Eph 4:11 — Eph 4:16 kjv
    And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

    Amplified Bible.....11 And [His gifts to the church were varied and] He Himself appointed some as apostles [special messengers, representatives], some as prophets [who speak a new message from God to the people], some as evangelists [who spread the good news of salvation], and some as pastors and teachers [to shepherd and guide and instruct],12 [and He did this] to fully equip and perfect the saints (God’s people) for works of service, to build up the body of Christ [the church];13 until we all reach oneness in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, [growing spiritually] to become a mature believer, reaching to the measure of the fullness of Christ [manifesting His spiritual completeness and exercising our spiritual gifts in unity].14So that we are no longer children [spiritually immature], tossed back and forth [like ships on a stormy sea] and carried about by every wind of [shifting] doctrine, by the cunning andtrickery of [unscrupulous] men, by the deceitful scheming of people ready to do anything [for personal profit].15 But speaking the truth in love [in all things—both our speech and our lives expressing His truth], let us grow up in all things into Him [following His example] who is the Head—Christ.16 From Him the whole body [the church, in all its various parts], joined and knitted firmlytogether by what every joint supplies, when each part is working properly, causes the body to grow and mature, building itself up in [unselfish] love.

    Definition of an Apostle
    a messenger, one sent forth with orders a delegate ; specifically anambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (" apostle" ), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

    Romans 10:15
    And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

    ***my notes from study....
    Sent not necessarily of men but by the Holy Spirit!
    For God has given unto us the ministry of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:18-19) we are to be ministers or God's grace, peace and Love. For God has shed abroad His love in our hearts (Romans 5:5). We are ambassadors of Christ. Which is not Jesus' last name but the yolk breaking anointing that is within Thee Messiah, Jesus who is the Christ. Forgive and love one another EVEN AS God in Christ has forgiven us. John 17 and 1 John 3:23. It is a command, but we obey the command because we Love the Father (John 14:21) and,want to live our lives to be pleasing unto HIM!


    Definition of a Prophet
    1. one who, moved by the Spirit of God and hence his organ (mouth) or spokesman, solemnly declares to men what he has received by inspiration, especially concerning future events, and in particular such as relate to the cause and kingdom of God and to human salvation
      1. the OT prophets, having foretold the kingdom, deeds and death, of Jesus the Messiah.
      2. of John the Baptist, the herald of Jesus the Messiah
      3. of the illustrious prophet, the Jews expected before the advent of the Messiah
      4. the Messiah
      5. of men filled with the Spirit of God, who by God's authority and command in words of weight pleads the cause of God and urges salvation of men
      6. of prophets that appeared in the apostolic age among Christians
        1. they are associated with the apostles
        2. they discerned and did what is best for the Christian cause, foretelling certain future events. (Act 11:27)
        3. in the religious assemblies of the Christians, they were moved by the Holy Spirit to speak, having power to instruct, comfort, encourage, rebuke, convict, and stimulate, their hearers

    Definition of the evangelist:
    a bringer of good tidings, an evangelist

    Definition of a pastor
    a herdsman, especially a shepherd he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow

    Jer 3:15 KJV And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding

    Definition of a teacher
    an instructor, of those who in the religious assemblies of the Christians, undertook the work of teaching, with the special assistance of the Holy Spirit, one who teaches concerning the things of God, and the duties of man, by preeminence used of Jesus by himself, as one who showed men the way of salvation
     
    Angela333 and Fish Catcher Jim say Amen and like this.
  2. Good work there Cturtle,

    Will prepare some notes also.

    Marilyn.
     
    Cturtle likes this.
  3. Thanks Marilyn :)

    The HolySpirit directed me to what to do to get the ball rolling. I am looking forward to a peaceful glorious discussion.

    God bless!
     
  4. 'And He gave some, apostles;
    and some, prophets;
    and some, evangelists;
    and some, pastors
    and teachers;

    For - the perfecting of the saints,
    for - the work of the ministry,
    for - the edifying of the body of Christ:

    Till we all come in the unity of the faith,
    and of the knowledge of the Son of God,

    unto a perfect man,
    unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    That we henceforth be no more children,
    tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
    by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

    But speaking the truth in love,
    may grow up into Him in all things,

    Which is The Head, even Christ

    From Whom the whole Body
    fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth,
    according to the effectual working in the measure of every part,
    maketh increase of The Body unto the edifying of itself in love.'

    (Eph 4:11-16)

    Praise God!
     
    Big Moose, Fish Catcher Jim and Cturtle says Amen and like this.
  5. Hi Complete,

    Nice to see you. You presented that scripture very clearly, well done.

    Marilyn.
     
    Cturtle likes this.
  6. Just thought I would share what God gave me while i was studying briefly yesterday.


    The gift of prophecy is available to all.... 1 Corinthians 14:31
    For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

    Acts 2:17-18 & Joel 2:28-29
    Act 2:17 — Act 2:18
    And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy

    Vs. 3 But he who prophecies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.

    All gifts are of the same spirit. Jesus had all the gifts. And when we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us its the same spirit. Jn 14:10
    John 14:10
    Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    Jesus received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit after He was water baptized (Lk 3:21-22)

    Jn 16:13 — Jn 16:15
    Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    The job of the prophet is to give the people something to say, to exhort, encourage, to instruct and to release God's Word into the earth for the principalities (Eph 3:10)

    Nkjv.....Eph 3:10-12
    To the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. According to the eternal purpose which He accomplishes in Christ Jesus our Lord in whom we have access and boldness with confidence through faith in Him.

    Blessings of grace and peace be to you all abundantly :)
     
    Fish Catcher Jim likes this.
  7. Hi Cturtle,

    Good scriptures there concerning prophecy. And we know that the Apostle Paul encouraged all believers to prophesy -

    `Pursue love, desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.` (1 Cor. 14: 1)

    Then we read the scripture that Complete wrote out concerning `some prophets...` Thus we realise that we can all prophesy but that there are certain people who have the office of a prophet. This may be something to discuss as the two things often gets confused. Just because someone prophesies, doesn`t mean they are a prophet, just that they have the gift of prophesy. The prophet would also prophesy, but he holds an office in the Body of Christ where he speaks over greater matters in connection to direction.

    So one is a `gift` of the Holy Spirit for all believers, to comfort, edify & build up the Body of Christ, while the other, the office of a prophet is an ascension ministry, (from the ascended Lord at the throne), & by the Holy Spirit speaks direction to the Body of Christ.

    Marilyn.


     
    Big Moose likes this.
  8. Sounds like a great idea :) i'll look forward to what you find on that.
    God bless!
     
  9. Well Marilyn,

    I have been praying about the difference and felt that I needed to post something from the Holy Spirit. :) So here it is....

    The office of the prophet is someone ordained by God to speak to lg groups of people to give them something to say.

    The gift of prophecy that can be given and available to everyone is to encourage people on a personal basis, reaching those whom have not come in contact with the officer.

    The Holy Spirit being available to all after Jesus death and resurection is what changed things for us today.

    It all really is about an individual who has made themselves available to the Holy Spirit to speak for Jesus at His will (1Peter 1:21). Both positions can be interchangeable or flip flopped as God desires. Sometimes though people will listen more readily to a well known prophet over one that is not.

    2 Peter 1:21
    For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    As we speak God's Words from His Written Word over our lives - we become the prophets over our own lives - for the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword (Hebrews 4:12)
    When we pray in line with God's promises/Word the answer is never no (1 Corinthians 1:20). But one must pray according to Mark 11:24-25, believing that we receive.

    Mar 11:24 — Mar 11:25
    Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

    1 John 3:22
    And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

    2 Corinthians 1:20
    For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

    Jam 1:5 — Jam 1:6
    If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

    Romans 12:2
    And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
    Amp ~ do not be conformed to this world (this age), [fashioned after and adapted to it's external, superficial customs], but be transformed (changed) by the [entire] renewal of your mind [by its new ideas and its new attitude], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God, even the thing which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His sight for you]

    Some examples God showed me.....

    Prophecy to strengthen Acts 15:32
    To define God's will Acts 13: 1-3
    To predict the future Acts 21:10-11

    God bless you beyond all you could ask or think!
     
    Marilyn C and Big Moose say Amen and like this.
  10. You will probably not like what I am going to post however I want you to know that I love you and we all at times think differently. That difference usually comes from denominational teachings that we have grown up with or have been exposed to.
    Having said that, may I ask you .......... what role did apostles have in the church?

    The studies I have done over the years tell me the Twelve and Paul were instrumental in beginning the church. Soon after Jesus ascended to heaven, the disciples said that a requirement for their “apostolic ministry” was to have been with Jesus during his ministry in Acts 1:21-25. These apostles not only preached, but also exercised some administrative leadership. They laid hands on deacons whom the people had chosen in Acts 6:6, and they made decisions with the elders in Acts 15:22.

    Paul mentioned some of his qualifications to be considered an apostle: seeing the Lord and raising up churches in
    1 Corinthians 9:1. According to the Scriptures then, an apostle had to have seen Jesus and been with Him during His earthly ministry. That would them elemental anyone today who says they are an apostle.

    Paul's converts were the “seal” of his apostleship — evidence that he had been sent, at least to them in 1 Corth. 9 verse 2. He noted characteristics that marked an apostle: “signs, wonders and miracles” in 2 Corinthians 12:12. An apostle preached the gospel as a faithful messenger of the Lord. He was an official representative of Jesus Christ, more exclusive and authoritative more than anyone else.

    A prophet was “spiritually gifted” according to 1 Corinthians 14:37. Paul urged the Corinthians to desire the gift of prophecy (verses 1, 39) — but, judging by the way that Paul used the word, this rarely means predicting the future as most everyone today thinks that is the meaning of the word.. “Everyone who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort…. The one who prophesies should edify the church” according to 1 Corinthians 14:3-4). Prophecy is also for instruction (verse 31). God wants His messages to build and help the church.

    Remember that prophecy, although a very helpful gift, has limitations.
    “We know in part and we prophesy in part” (1 Corinthians 13:9). Prophecies will cease (verse 8).
    Love is much more important.

    Now that we have the completed Bible which is the Word of God, there is no need for apostles or prophets. Yes the world needs evangelists, and pastors and teachers who give out the Word of God so that the lost man can be saved and the saved grown in the truth.

    No one has to agree with my comments as I know we have many people of different denominational understanding.
     
  11. Hi @Cturtle,

    I thought I would give you the comments of my former Pastor, (Apostle A. Gardiner) who, before he retired was the President of the Apostolic Church in Australia.


    `God, Himself, has designated a specific pattern & prerequisite for the `Body of Christ` to attain Unity of the Faith, ie. summation of truth. Paul states categorically, by revelation, that this unity of Faith can only be achieved through the principle of Headship operating through Divinely designated Ministry Gifts – Eph. 4: 1 – 16.


    These ministries, bestowed by the ascended Lord Jesus, in addition

    • Develop `His Body` into spiritual maturity & understanding,

    • Stimulate the perfecting of the `Christ life,`

    • & discern & promote the function & ministry of each member in the Body.


      Regarding the acceptance, generally, & implementation of this truth, it is my considered opinion that God will intervene & do a quick work before Jesus returns.`


      Marilyn.

     
  12. #12 CCW95A, Dec 15, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2015
    The five fold ministry purpose is bring the saints to maturity, so that they (the saints) can do the work of the ministry. It is the saints who do the work of the ministry, not just those to whom Jesus gave. The work of the ministry is to "edify" the body of Christ, which means to build it up. You can not build something up until you know exactly were this building is being built!! It is not on this earth but in Heaven it self were the chief "corner stone" has been laid. We are all living "stones" and each one must place themselves in and around this corner stone were all the stones are being built as a habitation for God through the Spirit.

    Eph 4:11.. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    Eph 4:12.. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    Eph 4:13.. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    1Pe 2:4.. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
    1Pe 2:5.. Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
    1Pe 2:6.. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

    This is the work of the ministry. Is your pastor teaching you how to come to this place were this building is taking place?
    Mt Zion is not on earth were this building is taking place.
     
  13. Hi @CCW95A,

    Are you talking to me? If so, I am not sure what you are asking. Can you clarify please?

    Marilyn.
     
  14. I was not talking to you, just responding to the OP. :)
     
  15. Well now you have gone and done it :) you brought some interrsting facts and thoughts to the table. And now I have to respond in Love because you said the "L" Word. Giggle :LOL: :whistle: And oh by the way I thought your post was done quite well! And i agreed with most of it but here is what i found by reading the Scriptures in 1 Corinthians....

    Here is your Scripture in
    1Co 9:1 — 1Co 9:2 kjv

    9 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.

    And
    1Co 9:1 — 1Co 9:2 nlt
    Paul Gives Up His Rights
    9 Am I not as free as anyone else? Am I not an apostle? Haven’t I seen Jesus our Lord with my own eyes? Isn’t it because of my work that you belong to the Lord? Even if others think I am not an apostle, I certainly am to you. You yourselves are proof that I am the Lord’s apostle.

    As I read this in both versions it does not say that seeing Jesus and all the rest above are requirements of being an apostle. Vs 3 says that he is giving an answer to those who are questioning his authority and the foot note says 9:3 Greek those who examine me.

    1 Corinthians 9:3
    This is my answer to those who question my authority.

    Thayers definition...
    a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders

    Strongs Definition....From G649; a delegate ; specifically anambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (" apostle" ), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

    God bless you mightily! And I love you too!:cool:
     
  16. Thank you Marilyn! Surely appreciate you :)
     
  17. Hi Cturtle,

    Thank you sis. You are appreciated also. Doing a great job there.

    Marilyn.
     
    Cturtle likes this.
  18. Hi @Major,

    It is so good to see the way you & Cturtle relate. A good example to us all. Now I do understand what you are saying here -


    However have you considered that `the requirement for the apostolic ministry to have been with Jesus during His ministry,` was for the 12 apostles – pre-ascension, only.

    `Therefore, all these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in & out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day that He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.` (Acts 1: 21 & 22)

    It was needed for the 12 (with Matthias) to be witnesses of Christ`s life, death & resurrection. These 12 apostles will be the rulers over the 12 tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19: 28)

    Now when Christ ascended He Himself gave - `some to be apostles….` (Eph. 4: 11) These ascension or Headship ministry, came after Christ`s ascension & thus have a different purpose than the 12 pre-ascension apostles.

    Yes both witness to the fact of Christ`s ascension, but only the 12 were able to verify by being eye witnesses. The later Apostles although did not physically walk with Jesus, do have His Holy Spirit & Christ`s own apostolic ministry.


    Marilyn.
     
  19. Your question was...................
    "However have you considered that `the requirement for the apostolic ministry to have been with Jesus during His ministry,` was for the 12 apostles – pre-ascension, only."

    Yes I have. It is called in theological circles........"Cessationalism".

    Cessationalism is the view that the “sign gifts” of tongues and healing have ceased—that the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age. Cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs and that is because we have the completed Word of God. They also believe that because we have the completed Word of God there is no longer the position of prophet or apostle.

    Matthew 28:16-18
    The Great Commission
    "Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

    Now consider Hebrews 2:1-4 and you will se why there is such a teaching..........

    "Therefore we (Those that heard the Great Commission)ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; (There it is!! Do you see it????)
    God also bearing them(Apostles) witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?"
     
  20. Thank you for the very nice words. You are a dear child of God and may He bless everything you do and plan to do!

    Yes, the word for apostle is a "messenger". I agree totally. The point I am making is that there is no such office in the church today as an apostle or a prophet.

    Now look closely at 1 Corin. 9:1..........
    " Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord?"

    Isn't that a confirmation that one of the qualifications of an apostles is that they had to have seen Jesus Christ?????

    Why that is important is because today no one has seen the Lord Jesus and lived. Therefore there can not be an apostle today.

    Now that is my understanding and not everyone is going to accept that. For ME it puts the pieces together like a puzzle which allow all of the pieces to fit perfectly together.
     

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