Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by th1bill, Oct 14, 2012.

  1. Luk 3:21 Now when all the people were baptised, Jesus was also baptised, and while He was praying, heaven was opened,
    Luk 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."

    There is an inferred lie being taught in churches today that I like to see discussed. From the prophets of the Old Testament the Jewish Believer knew that a man, now known as John the Baptist, would be the fore runner of the Messiah, the Christ in Greek. When John came out of the Wilderness preaching the Baptism and Repentance, the Faithful went to him to be baptised, to be obedient to the Father in Heaven.

    As nearly as I can reckon it Jesus was born about six months after John, making them, not just some distant relative to each other, they were, though raised apart, close contemporaries. John recognized Jesus as the Christ the very moment Jesus appeared and, thus, proclaimed Him to be such. John called Jesus the Lamb of God. Until Jesus died on the cross a lamb was sacrificed, at least, every year for a man's sins and John announces Him to be God's Lamb.

    The inferred lie comes from a truth in the manor it is taught or explained. It is, absolutely, true that any Christian that has, nasty word, submitted their life to the, another nasty, service of God is not condemned by the, so called Mosaic Law. Every man and woman seated in the Church on Sunday Morning that as not made this commitment is condemned by the Law of our God. They are no better off, eternally, than the drunk in the juke joint on Saturday night.

    Jesus, while He was on the Earth, set an example of what we were to strive to become and for us to follow and Jesus, being God (John 1:1-3) did not find nor did He need salvation and the reason He went to the cross for me and for you was to restore our fellowship with God and it all boils down in the end of it all to obedience to the Father. Jesus prayed in the garden for “...this cup...” to pass him by, followed with, “...not my will but Thine.” Jesus was being obedient to all that is written in the Old Testament and to the Father! And in doing so, set, not only an example, but also, a standard.

    Jesus told us He came not to do away with the Law but to fulfil it. Now, I suggest to you, Jesus is the example we are to strive to follow! Comments?
  2. You are not possibly implying the law was the example and template for us to live righteous, obedient lives are you? Because if you are, no truer words could have been typed today. Most believers don't realize but they are already keeping most of the law that can be kept nowadays. Helping your neighbour, not being covetous, charitable, spreading God's message, not lying, stealing, and (gulp) not denying your spouse marital relations are just a few of God's commandments being kept. So when people say they are now free from the law, which one of God's laws bother you? Psalm 119.
    th1bill likes this.
  3. Hi Ryan,
    You are so spot on.
  4. Depends on whether we are talking dead works of the Law, or being made alive in Christ, listening for His voice and heeding it. Do we seek to be filled with His Spirit, living obedient lives in His power and love, or do we strive in our own strength to be justified by the letter of the Law?
    th1bill likes this.
  5. Yep!
  6. As always Bill, your comments are right in line with the Scriptures!!!

    I agree with you completely and just to follow up on what Jesus said in Matt. 5:17.......

    "Think not that I come to destroy the law, or the prophets, I am not come to destroy but to fufil".

    I think we would all benifit from the fact that part of the Mosaic Law was Ceremonial. Christ was the sacrifice for the sins of the world, the Lamb slain before the foundation of the universe were ever laid. Christ came NOT to destroy the Law but to fulfill the Law.

    And here is the key to this IMO........He fulfilled the Law in that He kept it during His earthly life. He beacme God's STANDARD and the standard which was set before man, HE was able to attain and now He is able to make over to you and me, and all believers, HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    God's standards have not changed, but none of us can can attain them in our own strength.

    That fact completly confirms Romans 3:23.......
    "For ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

    We all need help....we all need a Savior!!! We all need mercy and grace and we obtain them when we come to Christ!!!

    Folks...please do not misinterpret what I am saying here. I am NOT saying that we are free to break the Mosiac Law. The fact of the matter is exactly what my friend Bill has said.........The LAW is still a "standard". It reveals to us that I cannot measure up to God's standard. THAT FRIENDS DRIVES US TO THE CROSS!!!!
    The only way I, a sinner can fulfill the Law is to accept the ONLY ONE WHO COULD FULFILL IT-------------
    The Lord Jesus Christ. Then His righteouseness is imputed to us.
  7. Ok here is my take on it.

    The OT law (Mosaic law, ten commandments) were given to show people what sin is. Their justification before God was done through the various sacrifices which God commanded.

    Jesus brought justification for us through His eternal sacrifice. Those who believe in Jesus are justified apart from the law. Keeping the law of God, if one does not believe in Jesus, is a useless pursuit and one which we cannot do in our own strength.

    Ok - so just so I am clear here - justification before God comes only through Jesus Christ not through trying to keep the law of God.

    This does not mean that the law of God has become irrelevant, giving us a license to sin.

    Now moving on...

    In the OT men and women were convicted of sin through the law (they were taught the law and were exposed to it all the time)...

    Nowdays we have somebody else who convicts us of sin and that is the Holy Spirit. For example if I fully believe in Jesus yet have never heard the law of God (yes there are people out there who have given their lives to Jesus who have never had the opportunity to read scripture) then the Holy Spirit will convict me of sin in my life. Sometimes this conviction can be devastating but always ends up to my benefit in the end.

    OK.. moving on.

    Against what standard does the Holy Spirit convict us of sin? There is only one standard and that is the law of God. If a person who has claimed to have recieved the Holy Spirit does not show signs of moving into Gods law then I would seriously wonder if they have really dedicated their lives to Christ in the first place.

    Jesus summed up the law and that is to love God and to love our fellow man (condensed version of the ten commandments). Jesus did not take away the law of God, but made a permanent sacrifice on our behalf so we are justified before God because God knew it is impossible for man to obey the whole law of God. BUT through the Holy Spirit beleivers are slowly progressing towards becoming like Christ and obeying the whole law, not the letter of the law (religious) but the Spirit of the law (willingful obedience to love God and man).

    Rom 3:19
    But we know that whatever things the Law says, it says to those who are under the Law; so that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may be under judgment before God,
    Rom 3:20

    because by the works of the Law none of all flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law is the knowledge of sin.
    Rom 3:21
    But now a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets;
    Rom 3:22
    even the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ, toward all and upon all those who believe. For there is no difference,
    Rom 3:23
    for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,
    Rom 3:24
    being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;
    KingJ likes this.
  8. Excellent follow up to my post, major.
  9. Excellent follow up to my post, major.
  10. Excellent follow up to my post, major.
  11. Excellent follow up to my post, major.
    Excellent follow up, Major.
  12. Ryan, I have read this a few times to see if I am miss-interpreting you. What are you saying here?:confused:
  13. Exodus 21:10 is clear that a man is not to deny his wife, or in this case, his first wife marital rights. This is a commandment that speaks about God's character about maintaining rights for all his people. A man could not take a second wife, and disregard the first wife. Their were clear expectations on how a man is to care for his wife. She is afforded all these rights mentioned, plus more obviously, whether there was a second wife or not. It's essentially saying, "Guys, keep your wife happy between the sheets." This has far reaching implications about the positive benefits of maintaining relations, such as closeness with your spouse, satisfying sexual urges, pro-creation, etc. If you have a happy, healthy sex life, it helps deny further sinful thoughts and urges for covetous sins and desires. God is all knowing about our weaknesses in the flesh, and this simple little commandment when applied prevents the marriage from going to shambles. How many women say why they strayed was because their emotional and physical needs weren't being met? So to me, it says we have to be diligent tending to our spouses. Hope that is clear.

    And the reason I said (gulp) was because sex is not something we tend to talk about.
    KingJ likes this.
  14. Thanks for that explanation!
  15. We need to be very careful if we're preaching the law.
    Whilst the law is just, good and holy (Rom 7:12), it is not how our righteousness is determined. If we judge anyone's righteousness by it then we are no different than the Pharisees.

    Gal 5:9
    A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

    Reading the context of Gal 5 we see what the leaven is that we are warned about.
    Consider Gal 5:4 to see that leaven speaks of being under the law, attaining righteousness by works.
    Gal 5:4
    You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

    Jesus gave the same warning in Matt 16:6-12
    Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.”
    And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “It is because we have taken no bread.”
    But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread? Do you not yet understand, or remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many baskets you took up? Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand and how many large baskets you took up? How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?—but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

    There are some who preach a false gospel where they mix grace with works of the law. Preaching grace but then adding a little leaven/doctrine of works of the law, will eventually leaven the whole lump. Grace cannot be mixed with works of the law. Consider Rom 11:6
    And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

    Either our works are to believe on Jesus (John 6:29) or they are perfect obedience/works of the law. To mix these both is to be lukewarm, and God will spew you out of His mouth, Rev 3:15,16.
  16. I feel you have made an important distinction here between the "doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees" which are the 613 Mitzvot laws and the Ten Commandments along with the teaching of the prophets which are God's law. :)

  17. As I have asked you previously, provide scriptural proof that any of the instructions, or 613 commandments the Lord gave to Moses was not God breathed to him. Specific passages please from Genesis - Deuteronomy.
  18. Maimonides' list sorted by occurrence in the Torah. Bearing in mind the commandment not to kill and remembering that murder is premeditated killing:

    486 Not to kill the murderer before he stands trial — Num. 35:12

    487 Save someone being pursued even by taking the life of the pursuer — Deut. 25:12

    488 Not to pity the pursuer — Num. 35:12

    545 The courts must carry out the death penalty of stoning — Deut. 22:24

    546 The courts must carry out the death penalty of burning — Lev. 20:14

    547 The courts must carry out the death penalty of the sword — Ex. 21:20

    548 The courts must carry out the death penalty of strangulation — Lev. 20:10

    549 The courts must hang those stoned for blasphemy or idolatry — Deut. 21:22

    550 Bury the executed on the day they are killed — Deut. 21:23

    555 The court must not kill anybody on circumstantial evidence — Ex. 23:7

    51 Not to bow down before a smooth stone — Lev. 26:1 (Idolotry)

    189 Not to benefit from an ox condemned to be stoned — Ex. 21:2 (Cruelty)

    008 Not to destroy objects associated with His Name — Deut. 12:4 (Idolotry)

    596 Destroy the seven Canaanite nations — Deut. 20:17

    597 Not to let any of them remain alive — Deut. 20:16

    598 Wipe out the descendants of Amalek — Deut. 25:19

    599 Remember what Amalek did to the Jewish people — Deut. 25:17

    600 Not to forget Amalek's atrocities and ambush on our journey from Egypt in the desert — Deut. 25:19

    603 Not to offer peace to Ammon and Moab while besieging them — Deut. 23:7

  19. One need go no further then the first passage you highlighted.

    Numbers 35:9-12 "9 And the Lord [Adonai] spoke to Moses, saying, 10 "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, y When you cross the Jordan into the land of Canaan, 11 z then you shall select cities to be cities of refuge for you, that the manslayer who kills any person without intent may flee there. 12 The cities shall be for you a refuge from the avenger, that the manslayer may not die until he stands before the congregation for judgment.

    Just by this first example, the basis for the rest of the verses you argue for, cannot stand.
  20. "the manslayer may not die UNTIL he stands before the congregation for judgment"

    You are missing the word UNTIL.

    To be honest it all depends on whether it was an accident or not and that is for the congregation of judgement to decide, at least in the Cities of Refuge they got a fair trial and that is why they were set-up otherwise whether they were innocent or not they would be killed as in a blood feud in line with an eye for an eye etc.

    Exodus 21:23 NIV says, "But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life"

    That's Jewish law along with stoning etc. It was the same in England until recently when people were hung for stealing a lamb, so it wasn't only limited to the Jews, other nations were the same. You just need to be aware that this was their civil law and not God's law, even though the civil law invoked the name of God it was actually written by the Levite priests after they came out of the Babylonian exile .

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