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Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by ccfromsc, Oct 17, 2013.

  1. What is everyone's take on what is labeled "Obamacare?" Had to deal with getting it yet?
  2. first off, it is unconstitutonal - a corrupt interpretation of the commerce clause
    2nd, it was written by a lobbyist for the insurance industry and passed by congress without it having been read by congress
    3rd, it will double or triple costs to all who are forced to sign up
    4th, the healthcare.gov website is so poorly written it is unusable

    our government, and our president in particular, have lost their collective minds
    RosaVera, darballz, dUmPsTeR and 1 other person say Amen and like this.
  3. Exactly what glomung said in post #2!!!!!!!!!!!
  4. Insurance is too expensive because healthcare is too expensive. Healthcare is too expensive for a number of reasons, one including litigation.

    By forcing insurance on everyone, insurance will HAVE to go up. It's not exactly a supply and demand product. More people have insurance, insurance companies will have to pay out more money. It's easy math, even if the government IS one of those insurance companies.

    What needs to be fixed first is the price of healthcare. Fix that, and THEN you can tackle the insurance issue. Do it in reverse, and I just don't see how this is going to end well.
    darballz likes this.

  5. No they have not lost their minds...they have the mind of 'antichrist' and know exactly what they are doing... This program goes against everything spiritually that God puts into the hearts of His people... Those who participate and fund this evil program are partakers of their evil deeds...Wake up-sleeping Christians!

  6. Anyone want to mention the "Death Panels"?
    RosaVera likes this.
  7. Greetings;

    The only thing a bureaucrat can do with competence is to jack up their salaries.

  8. I'm very critical of Obamacare. I don't even know where to start.

    1) It's unConstitutional. The argument is that the Supreme Court ruled it Constitutional, but this isn't the first time a law has been ruled Constitutional by the Supreme Court when it clearly wasn't (War Powers Resolution Act of 1973, the War on Drugs, CISPA [not officially signed yet though]). The States should have the option to nullify.

    2) It's counterproductive. The selling mark on this was that premiums were going to be reduced and people could afford healthcare. The problem is it did the opposite as predicted by using 8th grade math. My wife who works as a medical biller receives calls daily asking why their premiums have increased. Some cases, they've increased about $300. And if the country's goal is to rebuild the economy, this sure won't help--it will make things even worse.

    3) It's a job killer. I'm not sure what does more harm to employment--minimum wage laws or Obamacare. Obamacare presupposes that every business is exactly like the other. But if Business X has 15 people on staff but is forced to pay for Obamacare for each person, either the staff will have a reduction of hours making them part time or some people will have to be laid off. Otherwise the business will just sink altogether.

    4) Healthcare isn't expensive because of too little government--it's expensive because of too much government. In about 1910, health insurance was introduced. It was run decently as it was just a measurement of risk. For those without insurance, people could pay out of pocket, but the expense wasn't what it is today (before counting inflation). In the 1970s, that's when third party payment was introduced as a government mandate, and it didn't matter what procedure or prescription was needed, the patient would go ahead and buy it because of third party payers. But when this happens, cost of service and goods will increase by the laws of economics. It's like if we had grocery insurance--we wouldn't care about finding sales, and we'd by steak instead of hamburger--the insurance would just pick it up. But because of this, the grocery stores would have to increase the prices due to supply and demand, and in turn, the insurance would have to increase too.

    5) It's slavery. To suggest that the services of one should be done free of charge for another because it is "a right" is the definition of slavery. Healthcare isn't a right, it's a good. Anything that comes at the cost of one individual isn't a right. Rather, a right is an extension of your own humanity--like speech, thought, labor, etc. But if I claim that I have a right to your labor, then I am suggesting that slavery is valid.

    7) It reduces medical value. Through private enterprise, the medical industry has the potential to progress and cater to the needs of the patients. The top medical advances don't come from countries that have government funded healthcare, and it's no coincidence. Do you think the DMV would be run better privately or publicly? If finances only go as far as government permits, then not everyone will receive proper help. This also aligns with death panels, which by the way is not a myth.

    8) It reduces incentives. Under private enterprise, an industry has an incentive to be better to the consumer/patient if it wants to succeed. This is what Adam Smith called "The Invisible Hand." It might sound wrong to think of a hospital or practice as looking out for themselves as a business, but there is still an incentive to keep their practices afloat. But under something like Obamacare, the incentive gets lost. In fact, some practices have begun closing shop and either retired early or just joined as staff at hospitals.

    9) The doctors don't even want to deal with it. Many of them will be dealing with more and more government looking over their shoulders as they try to do their jobs. Between the paperwork and the mandates they will be having to face, they have become extremely discouraged. This is also why some have been gradually closing practices.

    10) It dictates what one can and can't do/have despite what their doctor might think is best. Rather than leaving the decision between the doctor and the patient on what is best, Obamacare brings bureaucratic regulating into the center. So if Janet is in need of medication for painful symptoms she's been having, and the doctor thinks it's a good idea for Janet to take this medication, the government might stop him from prescribing it to her if they feel it's not necessary enough.

    So yeah, Obamacare may be as big a blunder as FDR's New Deal. It interferes with private enterprise, causes more medical harm than good, puts people in an even bigger financial crunch, it promotes the false premise that goods are also rights, it's unConstitutional, and it reduces medical advancement.
    darballz and (deleted member) say Amen and like this.
  9. I can hardly afford to eat. I sometimes go a day or two without food. What I call force fasting.

    I lost 15 pounds lately. I don't have any of my BP meds and my heart is breaking as tears roll down my cheeks.

    I don't even like the title 'obamacare'. I fail to see how it will take this upside down country in the right direction.
    darballz likes this.
  10. I'm a business owner, have a family of five. I don't pay for dental and prescription coverage because I can pay cash for those things. My hmsa premium was $325/mo.

    It now will be $750/mo

    Obama my hero

    darballz likes this.
  11. Yep, this is what people had predicted. I'm sorry to hear this.

    Do you have any employees?
  12. Yes but my wife who takes care of accounting hasn't complained yet. I plan to make sub contractors out of them and then bring on part time help to avoid the extra costs.
  13. Yep, that's what a lot of business owners are doing. If only people understood that part time employees isn't a means of being greedy but rather a means to keep a business afloat.
  14. Thx. I had a habit of helping my guys start their own sole proprietorships as I could deliver their fee outside of the cost of an employee. For example to pay $18/hr it costs about $52k/yr. that wage however isn't a livable wage for a husband and or a father. But by cutting a check for $1k a week he can write off his expenses and get ahead. These scenarios usually ended up becoming subs who eventually got too busy to help me and moved on. Now there's not really a choice based on my employee's livelihoods but like you say a choice of necessity.
  15. My husband has not had insurance for 10 years. I tried to get on the site to get some, but no luck yet. The site has a lot of problems.
  16. I understand your problem with the Affordable Care Act. However, I have a question for you, do you come out as strongly against the wars that were started? They have killed thousands of our young people and not only are the unnecessary but the Iraq war was declared unconstitutionally. Also, we have the highest percentage of incarceration of any country in the world. Private prisons warehouse people at the lowest bidder. I know for a fact, having worked with ex-cons, that there are many better solutions that would cost the American people a whole lot less money. Where is your indignation over this?
  17. #17 LysanderShapiro, Oct 30, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2013
    Indeed. I am 100% against interventionism and these wars. I believe in the Just War Theory and believe war should only be pursued in defense, not offense. I think it undermines prosperity, it undermines the family, it undermines sound money, and most importantly, it undermines life. Seeing young soldiers come home with missing limbs, suicidal, broken relationships with their spouses and kids, it's no wonder the Early Church expressed being very, very careful about going into war and the concept that peace is superior to war.

    Iraq, like many wars, isn't considered to be unconstitutional by many because 1) it was supported by Congress and 2) Bush practiced the "War Powers Resolution Act of 1973" which allows presidents to wage war for (I think) 6 months and if Congress doesn't vote in support, the troops have to withdraw. However, this law itself is unconstitutional because only Congress is supposed to be the only one to wage war--not by executive authority. Every president since LBJ has exercised this unconstitutional law. So because the law that permitted the wage was unconstitutional, by default, the war itself was. But even constitutionality aside, it violated the Just War principles.

    Also, in regards to the high percentage of incarcerations, and not getting too deep into this, I am very much against the drug war. Of course, I'm against the use of drugs, but the drug war costs too much of the tax payer's dollars and even permits the cartels to thrive. 40 years of a failed drug war that we can't afford is a bad decision.

    How is this in regards to Obamacare though?

    By the way--welcome, Sandy :)
    RosaVera and (deleted member) say Amen and like this.
  18. I have real reason to fear that my wife may be about to lose her fulltime employment, and her insurance. I am worried. If this happens things are going to be very hard for us. We live in a small town that has few jobs. I know of other people in our town who are losing their fulltime employment and insurance. You cannot get a second job because there are no jobs here. Obamacare is going to prove to be the single biggest policy disaster in this nation's history.
  19. #19 Roads, Oct 30, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2013
    The US currently spends about 18% of its GDP on health care, which is the highest in the world. This worked out to about $8,500 per person in 2011. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/60/U.S._Healthcare_Costs_Per_Capita.png. The US gov pays for about 50% of all healthcare costs in the US.

    Still, with all that spending, 40% of Americans have inadequate health insurance, with 15% being completely uninsured. According to the US Census bureau, only 9% of Americans pay for private insurance directly, and about 60% have some level of coverage though their employment. These stats aren't what I would expect from the country with the highest healthcare spending per capita in the world. The US is the only wealthy industrialised nation in the world that doesn't guarantee universal healthcare to its citizens.

    By contrast, in 2009, Canada spent 10% of its GDP on healthcare, which worked out to about $4000 (USD) per person. Although Canada has "public" healthcare, it actually only pays for about 70% of healthcare costs.

    Japan and the UK have similar stats, each spending around 8% of their GDP, about $3000 per person, but their govs actually cover about 80% of healthcare costs.

    So, the story around the world seems to be that public healthcare should dramatically reduce the cost of healthcare per person, while providing better health coverage for a far greater percentage of the population. If the US wants to decrease its health care costs, and get those coverage percents up the world standards, why doesn't it just copy one of the existing successful public healthcare models in the world, instead of, bizarrely, insisting that a person's employer absorb their insurance costs?
  20. So how does everyone like "Obamacare" now? Seems to me very very few people want it. A lot of people have had their insurance premiums sky rocket. So what happens next? Oh, BTW, did Obama lie when he said you will be able to keep your current health insurance? Also the deductible is now so high that makes one wonder why pay for the insurance at all.

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