New Interpretation of Parable

[Major]

I speak in tongues all the time though Major. Around others who speak in tongues. Sort of normal for me.

So even though Ruckman was wrong about tongues, His other teaching was very good and helpful.

To think everyone has everything 100% scripturally correct is wrong thinking. We all have goofy doctrines that need fixed.

It is YOUR opinion that brother Ruckman was wrong. It is my opinion that he is correct. I was involved in the Pentacostal faith a very long time ago.
As I grew and was educated in the Bible, it became very clear to me that tongues and knowledge were done away with when the Bible became canonized.

I do realize how hard that is for people to who have been trained in the Pentacostal faith to accept because it was for me as well. However, when faced with the truth of God's Word, it is always US who have to conform to it and not it to our thinking and wishes.

I do not say that to cause an argument or a debate. It is however just a statement on Biblical facts from me on why things are the way they are.
Most people in the Pentacostal faith will argue that "Tongues" is the evidence of being saved and filled with the Holy Spirit. Again, correct Bible study tells us something very different if we choose to listen.

Consider my brother that Tongues cannot be the initial evidence of the Holy Spirit, because it is not a sign of believers, but of unbelievers (1 Corinthians 14:22)! Also, read 1 Corinthians 12:27-30 where the apostle Paul asks rhetorical questions. He asks, 'are all apostles?' No is the obvious answer. 'Are all prophets?' No. 'Are all teachers?' No. 'Are all workers of miracles?' No. 'Do all have the gifts of healing?' No. 'Do all speak with tongues?' NO! This means that not all believers speak in tongues. Therefore, tongues could not be a sign of the receipt of the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is given to everyone who sincerely repents and is baptized, but not everyone has the gift of tongues. So this one text alone rebukes the teaching that it is a sign of the receipt of the Holy Spirit.

Now, if a person insists on speaking in tongues, that is fine with me. However, he must not criticize or condemn anyone else for not doing as he does because he is actually doing something that does not need to be done at all.

IT is much like the person who believes he must keep the law of God to be saved. He is welcome to do so and I encourage him to do so but it has no purpose at all in being saved. It is good to try but serves no purpose in salvation no more than does being baptized.

1 Corth, 13:8..........
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."

 

[Major]

I speak in tongues all the time though Major. Around others who speak in tongues. Sort of normal for me.

So even though Ruckman was wrong about tongues, His other teaching was very good and helpful.

To think everyone has everything 100% scripturally correct is wrong thinking. We all have goofy doctrines that need fixed.

Who does the interpretations when you are all speaking in tongues????

 

[By Faith]

Who does the interpretations when you are all speaking in tongues????

I'll quote one post to save time and space, I considered both of your post though and read through a few times.

Unless the Lord shows you, I won't be able to type something so brilliant that makes you think suddenly that you have been wrong all these years about tongues. Unless the Lord helps me get it accross to you in a way that you will recieve and know it to be the Lord like you hear him all those other times and you know it's him. I myself won't convince you.

I was not raised Pentecoastal. I love them Guys, Like Ruckman, but Ruckman had issues with their belief for a good reason.

Them pentecoastol folks can be flighty and sometimes downright creepy. Still love them though.

I would post you scripture about Tongues, Paul called praying and so on. By the number of Post you have, I'll respect the fact that I won't post something you have yet to hear.

I sought the gift. Jesus shaid whosoever shall believe on my name shall speak new tongues. It was a frustrating process because I could not go to church and get any good or bad teaching on the subject. I wanted everything I saw in the Word though, and the Word to me is simple as it was back than as it is today.

Paul did not talk about the Word being cannon. Paul said for know we know in part, unti that which is perfect has come and we no longer see through the glass darkly.

We don't see everything now Major. We only know some things, and I believe God gets across to each of us that seek him the things we need to know, in order to do all He called each of us to do.

1Co 13:12-13 kjva 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

2Co 3:18 kjva But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

What Paul is saying is that we behold things and the glory of the Lord as through a glass. Can't yet touch it, things not super clear, but we can make out the shape and get understanding of the glory of the Lord. We only see in part, know in part, but we will one day know fully.

What we do know and can walk in is Love, faith and hope. The greatest of these is love. We can know that and walk in these things.

1Jn 3:2 kjva Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Jn 2:27-28 kjva 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

When the Lord appears we will no longer see him as through a glass. We don't even understand what we are, or what we will be, but when we stand before him we shall be like him.

Be blessed Major.

 

[Major]

I'll quote one post to save time and space, I considered both of your post though and read through a few times.

Unless the Lord shows you, I won't be able to type something so brilliant that makes you think suddenly that you have been wrong all these years about tongues. Unless the Lord helps me get it accross to you in a way that you will recieve and know it to be the Lord like you hear him all those other times and you know it's him. I myself won't convince you.

I was not raised Pentecoastal. I love them Guys, Like Ruckman, but Ruckman had issues with their belief for a good reason.

Them pentecoastol folks can be flighty and sometimes downright creepy. Still love them though.

I would post you scripture about Tongues, Paul called praying and so on. By the number of Post you have, I'll respect the fact that I won't post something you have yet to hear.

I sought the gift. Jesus shaid whosoever shall believe on my name shall speak new tongues. It was a frustrating process because I could not go to church and get any good or bad teaching on the subject. I wanted everything I saw in the Word though, and the Word to me is simple as it was back than as it is today.

Paul did not talk about the Word being cannon. Paul said for know we know in part, unti that which is perfect has come and we no longer see through the glass darkly.

We don't see everything now Major. We only know some things, and I believe God gets across to each of us that seek him the things we need to know, in order to do all He called each of us to do.

1Co 13:12-13 kjva 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

2Co 3:18 kjva But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

What Paul is saying is that we behold things and the glory of the Lord as through a glass. Can't yet touch it, things not super clear, but we can make out the shape and get understanding of the glory of the Lord. We only see in part, know in part, but we will one day know fully.

What we do know and can walk in is Love, faith and hope. The greatest of these is love. We can know that and walk in these things.

1Jn 3:2 kjva Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Jn 2:27-28 kjva 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

When the Lord appears we will no longer see him as through a glass. We don't even understand what we are, or what we will be, but when we stand before him we shall be like him.

Be blessed Major.

Excellent comments my brother and I in fact agree with you. I am not sure that they speak to the question at hand..."Tongues", however they do speak of fellowship and tolerance.

I have no desire to highjack this thread, only to speak with you on our mutual concern about speaking in "tongues". I will not argue the point, only state my understanding of it.

I agree with you about our brothers in 'Charismatic' and Pentecostal churches today where we see the phenomena of 'speaking in tongues' whereby people are told that when they are very spiritual and are baptized by the Holy Spirit, this is EVIDENCED by being able to 'SPEAK IN TONGUES' which they say is a 'heavenly prayer language which offers praise to the Lord! Anyone who doesn't 'speak in tongues' if left to feel not as 'spiritual' as those who do speak in tongues!

However, one does not have to look very deep to understand that the position taken speaks of pride more than praise of God who gives the gifts. "I" can do something you can not do then actually forces the one who can not speak in tongues to fake it so as to be as spiritual as the one who is doing it whether he is really doing it or not.

Then take time to consider that God gave certain guidelines for the use of tongues in those early church days as described in 1 Corinthians 14. Isn't it strange that charismatic groups today don't even follow these guidelines that Paul gave?

Over the years I have been able to attend and observe and I can tell you that I have NEVER been in a church where tongues were spoken as Biblically outlined.

We learn several things about the gift of tongues from the Bible when it was present and available during the early years of the church. In the church services in that day, an interpreter MUST be present or the tongues person must remain QUIET! (1 Cor. 14:27, 28)…and only 3 at the most could speak during a service and then only one at a time.

Then according to 1 Cort. 14:34....…women were not to speak in tongues AT ALL! All the churches I have been in, it is the women who do all of the tongue talking. I am sure that you would agree since this is a universal thing and not just a localized happening.
So then.......Do those speaking in tongues in churches TODAY follow these guidelines?

 

[By Faith]

Excellent comments my brother and I in fact agree with you. I am not sure that they speak to the question at hand..."Tongues", however they do speak of fellowship and tolerance.

I have no desire to highjack this thread, only to speak with you on our mutual concern about speaking in "tongues". I will not argue the point, only state my understanding of it.

I agree with you about our brothers in 'Charismatic' and Pentecostal churches today where we see the phenomena of 'speaking in tongues' whereby people are told that when they are very spiritual and are baptized by the Holy Spirit, this is EVIDENCED by being able to 'SPEAK IN TONGUES' which they say is a 'heavenly prayer language which offers praise to the Lord! Anyone who doesn't 'speak in tongues' if left to feel not as 'spiritual' as those who do speak in tongues!

However, one does not have to look very deep to understand that the position taken speaks of pride more than praise of God who gives the gifts. "I" can do something you can not do then actually forces the one who can not speak in tongues to fake it so as to be as spiritual as the one who is doing it whether he is really doing it or not.

Then take time to consider that God gave certain guidelines for the use of tongues in those early church days as described in 1 Corinthians 14. Isn't it strange that charismatic groups today don't even follow these guidelines that Paul gave?

Over the years I have been able to attend and observe and I can tell you that I have NEVER been in a church where tongues were spoken as Biblically outlined.

We learn several things about the gift of tongues from the Bible when it was present and available during the early years of the church. In the church services in that day, an interpreter MUST be present or the tongues person must remain QUIET! (1 Cor. 14:27, 28)…and only 3 at the most could speak during a service and then only one at a time.

Then according to 1 Cort. 14:34....…women were not to speak in tongues AT ALL! All the churches I have been in, it is the women who do all of the tongue talking. I am sure that you would agree since this is a universal thing and not just a localized happening.
So then.......Do those speaking in tongues in churches TODAY follow these guidelines?

I really love most all denominations (Cept the ones who voted to allow gay ministers and other blatent sins to be in)
Argueing over tongues being biblical for today is a whole different animal than me trying to convince you that we should embrace free Love and homosexuality in church.

Tongues in my oppinion should not even be heard in Church. The folks that preach it the most don't really show a good example of it at all and it sort of makes me throw my hands up in the air.

Scripture is very clear, in Church there must be a know person used by God to interpet. Even so, the Pastor would who should be directing the service would dictate if Tongues is spoken at all. It is rude to God to just interupt service so other people can hear how spiritual you think you are.

Trying to hear service and the women next to you starts going Bla, bla, bla, bla, bla........... over and over is one reason I just try to stay out of pentecoastal churches.

People claim the Holy Spirit "MADE" them speak the the Holy Spirit is subject to the prophets and our helper. He is not taking anyone prisoner and forceing them to speak anything.

I am sorry Major that the examples you have experienced were out of line with scripture and instruction on how to allow the Holy Spirit to work in a Church setting. My hope is that it has not soured you to the point of not seeking this gift I know every believer can have as it is Praying in the Spirit (spirit man prays) a form of prayer for us that extends past our natural knowledge.

I can only pray so long in my own understanding, but spent a good few hours yesterday morning praying in tongues by myself. God was able to speak to me on a few things I needed to fix and get some direction on a few things. I certainly don't pray enough as I should.

Paul said despise not prophecy...............

The folks get fed up with all these Thus saith the Lord, when the Lord never said such a thing. It wears on folks, and gets to the point you just want nothing to do with the flighly nut cases that believe they have all these wonderful gifts.

I can't count the times folks come to me saying....... I have a word from God to you. Really? It best be something the Lord has already talked to me about as A word from God should be confirmation, not new direction you never heard or knew about inside.

There is a Real Major, I hope that you run into mature folks in the Lord that are able to show and scriptural example of hearing God and speaking in tongues when it's time to do so.

I have only met one person God used consistanly to interpet tongues, it was years back, and just one. 17 years of speaking in tongues, and just ONE. Now God can give us all interpetation, but I am talking about a known person God uses.

Ruckman had a lot of pentecoastal friends and they bugged him and said all kinds of strange things to him. I have hears a lot of what they told him and I hate to say I don't blame him for his stance on tongues. Can't fault the guy, if your experience with it was from the nut house.

Blessing Major.

 

[Major]

I really love most all denominations (Cept the ones who voted to allow gay ministers and other blatent sins to be in)
Argueing over tongues being biblical for today is a whole different animal than me trying to convince you that we should embrace free Love and homosexuality in church.

Tongues in my oppinion should not even be heard in Church. The folks that preach it the most don't really show a good example of it at all and it sort of makes me throw my hands up in the air.

Scripture is very clear, in Church there must be a know person used by God to interpet. Even so, the Pastor would who should be directing the service would dictate if Tongues is spoken at all. It is rude to God to just interupt service so other people can hear how spiritual you think you are.

Trying to hear service and the women next to you starts going Bla, bla, bla, bla, bla........... over and over is one reason I just try to stay out of pentecoastal churches.

People claim the Holy Spirit "MADE" them speak the the Holy Spirit is subject to the prophets and our helper. He is not taking anyone prisoner and forceing them to speak anything.

I am sorry Major that the examples you have experienced were out of line with scripture and instruction on how to allow the Holy Spirit to work in a Church setting. My hope is that it has not soured you to the point of not seeking this gift I know every believer can have as it is Praying in the Spirit (spirit man prays) a form of prayer for us that extends past our natural knowledge.

I can only pray so long in my own understanding, but spent a good few hours yesterday morning praying in tongues by myself. God was able to speak to me on a few things I needed to fix and get some direction on a few things. I certainly don't pray enough as I should.

Paul said despise not prophecy...............

The folks get fed up with all these Thus saith the Lord, when the Lord never said such a thing. It wears on folks, and gets to the point you just want nothing to do with the flighly nut cases that believe they have all these wonderful gifts.

I can't count the times folks come to me saying....... I have a word from God to you. Really? It best be something the Lord has already talked to me about as A word from God should be confirmation, not new direction you never heard or knew about inside.

There is a Real Major, I hope that you run into mature folks in the Lord that are able to show and scriptural example of hearing God and speaking in tongues when it's time to do so.

I have only met one person God used consistanly to interpet tongues, it was years back, and just one. 17 years of speaking in tongues, and just ONE. Now God can give us all interpetation, but I am talking about a known person God uses.

Ruckman had a lot of pentecoastal friends and they bugged him and said all kinds of strange things to him. I have hears a lot of what they told him and I hate to say I don't blame him for his stance on tongues. Can't fault the guy, if your experience with it was from the nut house.

Blessing Major.

I can beat that my brother. I have been involved in ONE instance of "tongues" being done in 40 years.

A friend of mine went to a church one evening and while we were there, a man began to speak in what I thought was "unknown gibberish" because it could not be understood.

Low and behold, my friend was from Norway and he told me that the man was speaking in Norwegian. He then stood next to the man and told the rest of us what he was saying and the man was in fact giving his testimony of how he had gotten saved in Korea by an American minister at the battle of Choseen Dam.

Go figure!

 

[By Faith]

You quoted me, but I can't find your message anywhere. Oh well, I am sure it was good.

 

[Major]

You quoted me, but I can't find your message anywhere. Oh well, I am sure it was good.

I hit the wrong key and lost it. I just posted it again.
There it is...#46.

 

[Big Moose]

Thought I would add something I was shown while studying this.
KJV reads "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. "
The word "Strive" is :
agōnizomai

1. to enter a contest: contend in the gymnastic games
   
   
2. to contend with adversaries, fight
   
   
3. metaph. to contend, struggle, with difficulties and dangers
   
   
4. to endeavour with strenuous zeal, strive: to obtain something

The root gives us the word "agony".
The word "strait" is:
stenos
1. narrow (from obstacles standing close about), strait

As a noun, strait is defined as a position of difficulty, distress, or need:
or a narrow passage of water connecting two large bodies of water, often with treacherous obstacles of land formations such as islands and sand bars.

So I translate it to be: Struggle, as if in agony, to contend with the obstacles which hinder the passage through the narrow gate.

This gave additional meaning of the verse to me. Hope it does for you also.