New Birth, Not Religion

[JustPassingThru]

LS, bro,

What does Mark 16:16 say? Believe first and then be baptized.
John 3:5, Born of water and the Spirit, our human birth was by water, our second birth is by the Spirit.
1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:3-4, talks about cleansing our conscience and how is was done, we were there with Christ when He died and rose again, hence our sins are never ever remembered by Father, He has willed to forget them, our conscience is clean, it's the enemy that keeps reminding us of our faults and sins.
Col 2:11-12 shows us that our baptism is a sign to the world like circumcision was for the Jews.

I don't see where any of these verses are crucial to our salvation, with the exception of the first and the last they are explaining how our process of sanctification was started and is being worked out in us daily.

Blessings,

Gene

 

[LysanderShapiro]

LS, maybe the problem of misunderstanding is your use of the word "justification," what I'm reading is you are saying a man is justified by his works, I don't believe that is what you mean, because you know the Word, ...Paul teaches we are justified by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, to be even more precise, we are justified by the blood of Jesus when He poured it on the alter in Heaven that stands before His Father, and it was a one time event, never to be repeated, John 20:17

For the life of the flesh is in the blood. And I have given it to you on the altar to make an atonement for your souls. For it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul. Lev 17:11

We are saved by Grace through faith, and that faith to believe is given to us by the Father (the size of a grain of mustard seed), what James is talking about is our works of faith, after we are born again, prove we are born of God, to build upon the faith He gave us and to build up and enlarge our faith, hence, the just live by faith.

Then faith is of hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Rom 10:17

So to do a work we must hear from the Word what we are to do and step out in faith, if we do a work that isn't of faith, something He hasn't told us to do then it is sin, Rom 14:23 In my life He told me to go to Tahiti, there can be any number of things Father can/will tell us to do, from the supposed spectacular to the supposed menial, but, the authenticity of our faith is Father will do the work for us, He will provide whatever we need to accomplish what He has told us to do, without us asking for help from our brothers or sisters.

Blessings,

Gene

I think you're misreading my word "justified" as "saved." We are indeed saved by the grace of God through the sacrifice of the Son. And that is His gift.

Absolutely. It is by grace alone that saves us. And it's our faith that we receive His grace (Ephesians 2:8), but faith without works is dead (James 2:24-26) which is where the justification (not salvation) comes in.

By no means would I suggest that works saves us, and works outside of faith is also dead. In fact, that was addressed at the Council of Trent: "If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema. "

 

[LysanderShapiro]

LS, bro,

What does Mark 16:16 say? Believe first and then be baptized.

Amen. How can one enter the Kingdom without faith in the trinity?

John 3:5, Born of water and the Spirit, our human birth was by water, our second birth is by the Spirit.
1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:3-4, talks about cleansing our conscience and how is was done, we were there with Christ when He died and rose again, hence our sins are never ever remembered by Father, He has willed to forget them, our conscience is clean, it's the enemy that keeps reminding us of our faults and sins.

Our sins aren't remembered when we offer them up to God and ask for forgiveness. Just as people who don't offer themselves up to Him don't obtain His grace. while these verses do address baptism (though I'll, for argument's sake say they don't), these aren't the only verses that emphasize that we are to baptize.

Col 2:11-12 shows us that our baptism is a sign to the world like circumcision was for the Jews.

I don't see where any of these verses are crucial to our salvation, with the exception of the first and the last they are explaining how our process of sanctification was started and is being worked out in us daily.

Blessings,

Gene

Col 2:11-12 indeed expresses that baptism is the sign under the New Covenant vs. circumcision under Jewish law. But religion under the New Covenant shouldn't mean subjective or "do what you feel." Rather we should absolutely obey the law fulfilled by Christ. And because the Word says we are to do this, then it is important that we do it, and it says very clearly why we should.

I suppose I'll have to respectfully disagree with you, friend. But I did enjoy hearing your perspective on it.

 

[JustPassingThru]

And it's our faith that we receive His grace (Ephesians 2:8), but faith without works is dead (James 2:24-26) which is where the justification (not salvation) comes in.

Bro,

It's not our faith, reread the verse you quoted, we are saved by grace, through faith and that (the faith) is not of yourselves, ...the faith to even believe is a gift from God.


This is what I don't understand, justification means to be declared innocent, so if we are declared innocent when we are saved, the moment we are born again, how can we work, what can we do to become more innocent?

Let's say you have been arrested for robbing a bank, but it wasn't you, just a mistaken identity, the police release you, because you have a rock solid alibi (you were eating dinner with the DA), what can you do or what is the need, after they have declared you innocent (just), to try and prove to them you are innocent?

Blessings,

Gene

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Bro,

It's not our faith, reread the verse you quoted, we are saved by grace, through faith and that (the faith) is not of yourselves, ...the faith to even believe is a gift from God.


This is what I don't understand, justification means to be declared innocent, so if we are declared innocent when we are saved, the moment we are born again, how can we work, what can we do to become more innocent?

Let's say you have been arrested for robbing a bank, but it wasn't you, just a mistaken identity, the police release you, because you have a rock solid alibi (you were eating dinner with the DA), what can you do or what is the need, after they have declared you innocent (just), to try and prove to them you are innocent?

Blessings,

Gene

With all due respect, I think you're misunderstanding me. Or perhaps I'm wording it wrong. But I'm not disagreeing with you that we are saved by grace alone. I hope this makes sense, but my position is that we are saved by GRACE alone, through faith, and faith without works is dead.

So I absolutely side with you. It is grace that saves us. But if one doesn't have faith, does one have grace?

I'm afraid I'm not following the analogy though. Maybe try to help me understand this one better.

 

[JustPassingThru]

So I absolutely side with you. It is grace that saves us. But if one doesn't have faith, does one have grace?

Okay, I knew that is what you meant, ...so to answer your question, yes a person can be saved and living in/by grace, but not exercising faith, ...it's what Paul calls carnal Christians, again, any and all works of faith must come from hearing Father through His Word, Rom 10:17, ...now, hold on to your hat, here's some meat from the Word, ...our faith, or as you and James call them, our works of faith, will be our means of locomotion for all of Eternity, Jesus in His glorified body walked most of the day from Jerusalem to Emmaus, but He returned that same night to Jerusalem, He thought where He wanted to go and He was there, so will we be able to do so in our glorified bodies, maybe you have never heard that before and I know it's mind boggling at first, but I hope you can see why the enemy will do all that he can to have us react in presumption and to shipwreck our faith, he knows he can't hurt us here, so he is trying to diminish our enjoyment during Eternity, that's why this teaching is sooo important to our brothers and sisters, it's for their good.

Blessings,

Gene

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Okay, I knew that is what you meant, ...so to answer your question, yes a person can be saved and living in/by grace, but not exercising faith, ...it's what Paul calls carnal Christians, again, any and all works of faith must come from hearing Father through His Word, Rom 10:17,

Amen. What Paul is addressing is that all are sinful--of course this includes Christian. In 1 Corinthians 3:1-3,
Paul is addressing the readers as “brethren,” which he uses almost exclusively to refer to other Christians; he then goes on to describe them as “carnal.” Of course Christians can be carnal.

Here's the main thing -- a Christian can be, for a time, carnal, a true Christian will not remain carnal. Some have abused the idea of a “carnal Christian” by saying that it is possible for people to come to faith in Christ and then proceed to live the rest of their lives totally carnal, without evidence of being born again or a new creation.

...now, hold on to your hat, here's some meat from the Word, ...our faith, or as you and James call them, our works of faith, will be our means of locomotion for all of Eternity, Jesus in His glorified body walked most of the day from Jerusalem to Emmaus, but He returned that same night to Jerusalem, He thought where He wanted to go and He was there, so will we be able to do so in our glorified bodies, maybe you have never heard that before and I know it's mind boggling at first, but I hope you can see why the enemy will do all that he can to have us react in presumption and to shipwreck our faith, he knows he can't hurt us here, so he is trying to diminish our enjoyment during Eternity, that's why this teaching is sooo important to our brothers and sisters, it's for their good.

I'm afraid I'm missing your point on this second part. I don't know which part is supposed to blow my mind. Not trying to be rude, and maybe it's my fault, but I'm just having a tough time finding the connection of this and the subject of faith and works.

I guess I'm just trying to figure out your position on faith and works. Are you suggesting works aren't really important and that James 2 is relative?

 

[JustPassingThru]

Bro,

I know lots of carnal Christians (and what about carnal Lot), some of them have been saved 40, 50, 60 years, that's the beauty of God's love for us, we are accepted in the beloved just as we are, Eph 1:6 and He won't force us to do anything, if He were to do so that would be spiritual rape and God is not a rapist.

Here's what happens to us, we are conceived in sin, Paul states we are dead in our sins and trespasses, Eph 2:1 now I'm sure you will agree dead men don't think, will or move, they are dead, so, when the light of the Holy Spirit shines into our lives, Father is starting to draw us to Himself (it's a process) He is waking us up to spiritual truths, we come to the realization we are sinners going to Hell and then He gives us the Gospel, we at that point, under the illumination of the Holy Spirit, make a choice to receive Jesus Chris as our savior or reject the offer, if we receive the gift of salvation (offered to us in Grace) it is because Father gives to us the gift of faith to believe and we are born again, now, we are new creations, that is our spirits are regenerated and for the first time in our lives we are free from the power and influences of the devil through his world system Eph 2:2, that means our heart/soul is capable to resist the temptations of the devil, ...we say we have a throne in/on our hearts, now if I decide to sit on that throne and make decisions from my knowledge and will that makes me a carnal Christian, because my decisions that affect my soul are made through the intelligence that is gathered by my five senses, however, if I invite/allow Jesus to sit on the throne of my heart and reign and rule in my life that is what Paul refers to as being spiritual or putting on the new man, walking in the Spirit.



Okay, let's come at this from a different angle, in Eternity New Jerusalem floats above the New Earth, let's say you want to go to the Earth from your place in New Jerusalem, simple, just jump, but how are you gonna return form Earth to New Jerusalem? We can't jump that high, so we will in our minds/spirits to go there and we are there, pooof! That's what Jesus did to get back to Jerusalem that night, so, since faith is our means of locomotion, lets say you want to go to another planet, do you have enough ponies to get there, that is, is your faith big enough to carry you there? Now, saving faith, the initial gift of faith that Father gives to us Eph 2:8 to believe in His Son is the size of a grain of mustard, that will be enough faith to go from Earth to New Jerusalem, maybe farther, but how far can we go on that? Jesus was constantly chiding the disciples for their lack of faith, He wants us to have large amounts of faith, so much so that He had Paul write three commentaries on Hab 2:4 the just live by faith, Romans being the commentary on justice, Galatians being the commentary of how to live and the book of Hebrews explaining what faith is. Let's look at what Paul says faith is,

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:1

Let's put that to a practical test, you and I want to go to from the Earth to New Jerusalem and I've invited you to my pad, the substance of our desires (things hoped for), by faith we believe it and we are there, the evidence of what you have never seen, so using the same analogy, let's say we want to visit a distant galaxy, now do we have enough faith to get there? That principle is taught to us in the story of Peter walking on water, Jesus made the water firm (substance), but Peter didn't have enough faith to believe (things not seen), and so too we might not have enough faith to go where we want to go in Eternity, so do you see the importance of works of faith, of true faith, Peter stepped out of the boat in his faith and today the enemy is teaching lots of false doctrine about faith, that's why we must understand true faith that comes from Father and not the enemy.

Does that explain it any better?

Blessings,

Gene

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Friend, of course God doesn't force us to do anything. You and I both agree that He has granted us free will--and if we disobey, we have to take responsibility for that. Not quite sure how that part is relevant to this though.

Unless I am mistaken, it looks like you think that I believe faith is irrelevant to salvation. Not at all. Faith is necessary for salvation. But again, unless I am mistaken, it looks like you're suggesting that it is faith alone.

Our faith is what is necessary to receive grace. I cannot stress that enough. You've already references many verses that support this notion. However, I'm going to have to continue to disagree with you on the subject of faith alone. The Bible is very clear that faith alone is not justifiable. James 2:24 says "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." This is in fact the only place in the Bible that said the term "faith alone" -- where it says "not by faith alone."

It looks as though you're translation of Ephesians 2:8-9 is misinterpreted. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." You've used the term "saving faith" as if to say God imparts faith rather that God imparts grace through our faith. One argument I've heard in the defense that of this notion is Philippians 1:29 where it says "For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him" -- however, an earlier verse is ignored -- Philippians 1:27 which says "Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in the one Spirit, striving together as one for the faith of the gospel."

In Titus 1:16, it says "They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed."

But even more specifically, in James 2:14, it says "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?" This is why it is also followed up in Revelation 22:12 where it says "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done."

Friend, I used to hold your same position. The only problem is that it ends up discrediting the verses that express the importance of works--not just for the sake of witnessing, but for the sake of our own faith.

Each verse you provided I absolutely agree with. I dare not disagree with any verse in the Bible--it's all 100% true. Faith is the substance that fuels our salvation. But your statements is suggesting that these verses that emphasize where faith and works go hand in hand is either 1) not true, or 2) is true, but subjective.

A lot of people are uncomfortable with the word "works" because they think it's getting dangerously close to the concept of working your way into heaven. This is why Martin Luther added the word "allein" (German for 'alone') to Romans 3:28 in his translation and even almost completely removed the book of James. But of course people who subscribe to faith alone are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I suspect you and I won't see eye to eye on this one, but I will continue to look into your position on this as I hope you will look into mine--for the sake of truth and righteousness.

 

[JustPassingThru]

Mornin' bro,

Our faith is what is necessary to receive grace. I cannot stress that enough.

Now let me see if I understand what you are saying, ...what I'm hearing you say is we are saved by grace through faith and the faith by which we are saved is our own faith, is that correct or am I just thick headed?

The second point is James is talking about works after we are saved, not at the point of regeneration, but lets leave that alone for now and chew on Eph 2:8.

Blessings,

Gene

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Mornin' bro,



Now let me see if I understand what you are saying, ...what I'm hearing you say is we are saved by grace through faith and the faith by which we are saved is our own faith, is that correct or am I just thick headed?

The second point is James is talking about works after we are saved, not at the point of regeneration, but lets leave that alone for now and chew on Eph 2:8.

Blessings,

Gene

"...and the faith by which we are saved is our own faith..."

I'm not sure what this sentence means. I don't understand the emphasis of "the" and "our own." What do you mean the faith and our own faith?

 

[JustPassingThru]

I quoted what you said, ...we all have faith, our own faith, like you have faith that the chair you are sitting in will hold you, or when you push the start button on your computer it will start or when you turn the key in your car the battery has enough oumph to turn the engine or that the floor will support you when you walk on it and, when any one of these examples fail we are disappointed, that's our own human faith, that is not the faith Eph 2:8 is talking about, that faith is given to us by God, that's why the verse says it's not of our own (human faith).

Hope and faith go hand in hand, with our own human faith we hope with uncertainty mixed in, the hope from believing in the faith given to us by God is positive, we know it will be accomplished on no uncertain terms, Num 23:19 is the guarantee, because the faith given to us from God is something we must hear Him say and we hear what He is saying to us from reading the Word. Rom 10:17

Blessings,

Gene

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I quoted what you said,

...we all have faith, our own faith, like you have faith that the chair you are sitting in will hold you, or when you push the start button on your computer it will start or when you turn the key in your car the battery has enough oumph to turn the engine or that the floor will support you when you walk on it and, when any one of these examples fail we are disappointed, that's our own human faith, that is not the faith Eph 2:8 is talking about, that faith is given to us by God, that's why the verse says it's not of our own (human faith).

Hope and faith go hand in hand, with our own human faith we hope with uncertainty mixed in, the hope from believing in the faith given to us by God is positive, we know it will be accomplished on no uncertain terms, Num 23:19 is the guarantee, because the faith given to us from God is something we must hear Him say and we hear what He is saying to us from reading the Word. Rom 10:17

Blessings,

Gene

What I said was that our works isn't strictly for the sake of witnessing, but for our own faith. Though perhaps I should have worded it differently. Perhaps what I should have said was that works are necessary in justifying faith in Christ.

This isn't about human-limited faith. You are I are both using the word faith equally--the same faith expressed in each of the verses we referenced.

I think "our own faith" is becoming a red herring. We should stick to the subject at hand.

Either the Word of God contradicts itself or it doesn't. Either Paul and James have two different doctrines or they are each emphasizing two sides of the same doctrine--not discrediting the other.

Of course James is talking about works after we are saved. Let me say once again--MAN CANNOT WORK HIS WAY INTO SALVATION--we both agree with this, but you seem to think that this is my position. It is once we are saved by grace through faith that our works are necessary to justify faith which we need to obtain grace.

Why should we leave James 2 alone? This is the heart of the discussion--justification. You and I have 100% agreement in Ephesians 2:8, but we seem to have a disagreement with James 2; I believe it is objectively true and, unless I am mistaken, you seem to believe it is only subjectively true.

 

[JustPassingThru]

Perhaps what I should have said was that works are necessary in justifying faith in Christ.

Please bear with me and have patience with me, but it looks like we have come full circle, what I'm hearing you say is we have to have/continue working to be continually justified, is that what you are saying or am I misunderstanding you ...I told you I'm thick headed.

Either the Word of God contradicts itself or it doesn't. Either Paul and James have two different doctrines or they are each emphasizing two sides of the same doctrine--not discrediting the other.

Yes, that's what I'm saying, Eph 2:8 is at that point in time in our lives when we are born again, James is talking about our works of/by faith after we are born again and until we go home, so I see we are in agreement on that, what I don't understand is why, if I understand you correctly by what you are writing, why we need to continue on being justified, when justification is a one time event that happened at the Cross.

No way do I believe James 2 is subjective, I believe James is objective, as you call it, in that I have works that prove my faith, and that is the point James is making, so let's get down to the nitty-gritty, ...for example, when Father called me here there were three conditions, come on a one way ticket, which is impossible for a non-French citizen, come without any legal documents that would allow me to stay, and to not receive any support from my church or any individual, now, I heard what Father said to me, Rom 10:17, it was my decision to step out in faith or not, in my heart/soul I believed what He told me (that was my part) and then He started providing what I needed, ...He miraculously provided me with a one way ticket, He has provided me with French Nationality, and I hit the shores without a penny in my pocket and I can truly say, 22 years later, my cup runneth over, He has truly blessed me, now, in each one of these three conditions I faced many tests over these 22 years that has/is built/building up (it's not a one time deal, but occurs over and over in my/your entire lifetime, hence, ...the just (are continually) live (ing) by faith) my faith even more than when I first started out, ...so, I say this my beloved brother in all respect and love, here's the challenge James was/is presenting, ...you say you have faith, then tell me what Father has told you to do, that was humanly impossible for you to accomplish and He miraculously accomplished it in your life and the tests are continuing on in your life from what He told you to do and you stepped out in faith and did it.

Blessngs,

Gene

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Yes, that's what I'm saying, Eph 2:8 is at that point in time in our lives when we are born again, James is talking about our works of/by faith after we are born again and until we go home, so I see we are in agreement on that, what I don't understand is why, if I understand you correctly by what you are writing, why we need to continue on being justified, when justification is a one time event that happened at the Cross.

Perhaps we are both using the word "justified" differently--which it looks like we are. How would you define justification? Does justification and salvation mean the same thing or do they have different meanings?

Just a brief answer if you could.

 

[JustPassingThru]

Like I said, justification was accomplished on the Cross, we have no part in it (we weren't even born at that time), salvation for us is now available because of justification, every human since Adam until the last man born is justified by the work Jesus accomplished on the Cross, whether or not they will believe and receive it is another question, ...you and I have believed and received, hence we are saved.

Blessings,

Gene

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Like I said, justification was accomplished on the Cross, we have no part in it (we weren't even born at that time), salvation for us is now available because of justification, every human since Adam until the last man born is justified by the work Jesus accomplished on the Cross, whether or not they will believe and receive it is another question, ...you and I have believed and received, hence we are saved.

Blessings,

Gene

Indeed--whether one will believe and receive is another question, but once one does believe and receive--yes or no--is he justified by faith alone?

 

[JustPassingThru]

YES, YES, YES, AND YES!!! Eph 2:8 ...and,

And he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Gen 15:6

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Rom 4:3

Bro, time for me to go to work, I'll talk to you later.

Blessings,

Gene

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I see -- well I guess we got to the nitty gritty of it. Props to us ;P

It appears we're in a pretty big disagreement since this is your position, while my position is that we are not justified by faith alone.

James 2:21-22 says "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected"

And of course in verse 14 where it says "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." This is in fact the only place in the Bible that says the term "Faith Alone," -- where it says "not by faith alone."

Abraham's work was in response to his belief in God, but if God told him to sacrifice Isaac and Abraham said, "No, but I still believe in you," then what good would his faith have been?

In James 2:15-16, it says "If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?"

I suppose we've reached our limit on this one--we both feel strongly about our position. I enjoyed the discussion. I'm happy to let you put in the final word of course, I don't want to be "that guy"

God bless and take care.

 

[Mr. Darby]

I don't know if I'll have time to go into this in this discussion, but part of the problem that most do not understand about the book of James is that it's primary doctrinal application is to the Jewish saints of the Tribulation period. Doctrine for the NT Church is found in the primarily in the Pauline epistles. James is addressing Jews in the last days. Maybe tomorrow, if I have the time to get around to it, I will make some remarks on the Dispensational character of James. Looking at it from a Dispensational perspective changes the discussion dramatically. But, for my thoughts as the book of James applies to us today, see my post #14 on this thread.