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More Harm Than Good.

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Donato, Mar 14, 2013.

  1. The OP of another thread suggested I post my own thread because I have a completely different take on the topic. Consider the following link;


    So back to my thought on the video in the link, and there are many more like it. I think it does more harm to Christendom than good. It creates a generation of christians (lower case ‘c’ intended) that have hearts full of love (the incorrect kind of love) and empty heads (no knowledge of God) and that is not saving faith.

    I know people who watch videos like this and get all emotional about loving everybody like Jesus did, and what’s interesting is there are only a hand full of verses in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John that deal with this topic. If you put them all together they barely make a paragraph, so what do you do with the rest of the Scriptures?

    But you have people that read these same verses over and over again and watch these videos and get inspired to love everybody because that’s what Jesus did and they build their whole theology around it because it sounds good so it must be right.

    As I stated before, the context of ‘love’ in the Scriptures is sacrificial love or ‘agape’ as in the Greek. That context is there for a REASON. I find all too often that people will take the word ‘love’ from the Scriptures and regard it as ‘philia’ or friendship type of love.

    Philia is a feeling type of love, and feelings come and go. I gave the example of John Gibson Paton who went as a missionary to an island of man-eating cannibals. He didn’t go there to be buddies with man-eating cannibals. If he did, after his child died, after his wife died, when the cannibals wanted to eat his dead child and wife, after his first experience pulling arrows from his body, etc. may have changed his ‘feelings’ towards them.

    Agape or sacrificial love isn’t a feeling, it’s an attitude, and that’s why today there isn’t a man-eating cannibal on that island that hasn’t made a confession towards Lord Jesus Christ as his Lord and savior.

    Jesus is looking for Christians to upset the world, not to befriend it. Consider John 15:18.

    These are actual conversations I’ve had with people;

    Person 1:

    I say; “He is a false teacher, the Gospel isn’t about getting rich”, they reply; “Judge not, least you be judged. Jesus says to love everybody”. I’ll come back with; “2 Peter 2:1”, they reply; “Jesus says to love everybody, the devil put that in the Bible, everything negative is from the devil”.

    Person 2:

    I say; “Why do you pray to Padre Pio, there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved other than the name Lord Jesus Christ”, they reply; “Oh I don’t believe that, Jesus says to love everybody!”.

    Every time I come across this same response over and over again I’m literally dumbfounded. These people have invented their whole theology around a few verses of Scripture. Then they watch these videos to reinforce their theology. They form a jesus (lower case ‘j’ intended) to go with that theology which is a figment of their imagination and cannot save them from their sin.

    I think the disciples in Jesus time had a better chance with the people, at least they didn’t have all this nonsense floating around on YouTube. Now if there were videos on loving God perfectly and meditating on His Law day and night, now that would be inspiring. Who among us can say they’ve perfected loving God? If we did, his second commandment would be a result of the first and we wouldn’t have to make videos on how we have to try at it.
    Mr. Darby likes this.
  2. Well; I will not argue that there is a multitude of false doctrines and misunderstandings about the Bible. By no means do I proclaim myself a theologian- I am a simple believer.

    Do we hang out and do all the same things the world does as Christians? No.

    Do we live our lives out in 'fellowship' with unbelievers? No.

    Do we live in the world as examples to unbelievers? Yes.

    Are we separated from the world, a 'special treasure', a 'chosen people'? Yes

    The problem I have with your philosophy is that you seem to want us to believe we are somehow better than the unbelievers. This is an elitist mentality and exactly why Christ had to correct the Jews. You keep tossing the different types of love around like it is supposed to matter which 'love' we share with unbelievers and to an extent-I would agree with that statement; EXCEPT that as living examples-living testimonies-living sacrifices-Ambassadors to Christ-ALL forms of love should be evident to unbelievers when they observe us. Whether or not that specific 'type' of love is directed towards that individual.

    Why would an unbeliever be interested in following crabby miserable people? That's why I am a hermit....

    To an extent I will concede your to your point about 'milk-toast' Christianity; I will agree that there are a bunch of people whom will be sorely disappointed when they get to the judgement seat. Therefore-preach the Gospel; those who have an hunger for the Word will feast. Those who don't , well shake the dust off and move to the next house-just don't be spiteful about it-REJOICE! Man is that tough to do-don't you think?
  3. You cant be of the word, you bring up a good point there-we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard-but at the same time, the gal in the video makes a good point-without love, we have nothing. It really doesn't matter if we can keep all the commandments if we cannot love, and we cannot expect non christians to act like christians, its ridiculous. We need to show them why they need to be a christian-through our actions, and most importantly, through our love. No, we cannot compromise our beliefs-but we can't compromise our love-Christs love-either.

    Instead, we should let our lives be the proof, of Christs love.

    Lifeasweknowit likes this.
  4. Can you honestly say that you have knowledge of how much overall understanding the girl in the video has of scripture? The thing is, although many folks do try to follow all of it to the best of their abilities, everyone has their own points of emphasis, even within a single congregation. It isn't even the same points throughout your life; it can change with time and knowledge throughout the course of your journey.
  5. The point shes trying to make though, isn't how much scripture knowledge you have or don't have-any christian can show live, regardless of how much they do or don't know about scripture.
  6. We are to reign in all our emotions and bring them into obedience to our Lord. Love is the only emotion we are to set free.
    Now. With that said. It doesn't mean love is to be administered willy-nilly. You must harness your love even abundant love to be productive, edifying and uplifting.
    C.S. Lewis wrote a great book called The Four Loves. It gives love boundaries and purpose with each category having meaning for it's intended target.
  7. You seem to be trying to make a case for conditional love rather than the unconditional variety. That's not an accusation; that's just the way that all this sounds to me. Perhaps I'm not understanding you correctly. I'm sure your intentions are good, but I'm not altogether convinced that your direction is as exemplary.

    Trying to categorize things in this way just adds to the confusion. Could you please point me to parts of The Bible which separates love into subcategories? I'll be the first to admit that my knowledge is incomplete, but I have read it in its entirety (and admittedly forget some sections at any given time). I don't remember such a thing off the top of my head.
  8. I tried to edit this in, but I guess I was too late:

    I think the love part is fairly constant, actually. Sure, our behaviors may differ between the way we interact with a spouse vs. the way we act with a friend vs. the way we act with strangers. The ways that we interact with different people depends upon who these people are and our relationship with them. Our expectations, desires and levels of trust are different, but the love itself is the same at the base root.
  9. Sorry for breaking this up into multiple posts, but it's taking me a while to think on how to express it.

    I've heard and read of all sorts of categorizations of love by various authors and pundits (including C.S. Lewis), but I can't help but disagree. I don't think that adding other emotions (lust, jealousy, protectiveness, etc.) on top of love changes the love itself in any significant way. It is a prime root; a constant without variation. The other bits of emotion and whatnot that we tend to add on top are the very things which tend to get us in trouble. All that said, it is difficult to separate it out, because we don't experience these things separately, but feel the combined force of all of them at once.
  10. I had a discussion with my friends who are very firm unbelieving people tonight (mentioned this on another thread) and they were bashing on Christians (I took it with grace, openly and lovingly) because of how judgmental and hypocritical Christians are (In their opinion). They shared countless stories about Christians they know or teaching from the bible they've heard from pastors, all of which were not in line with the Word. I had to stress that being a Christian is not about looking at other Christians, Pastors, Priests, or what have you, and simply following everything they say. It's about reading the bible and living your life by the Word.

    It's sad because too many Christians don't live by the word. They condemn, judge harshly, and push unbelievers aside if they don't accept Christ right away or have questions. Instead, we should be patient, loving, display Christlike behavior, and work on planting that seed, even if it takes years.

    I will never throw away my close friends or even some acquaintances who are unbelievers because you know what? Some of them eventually came around. Even after 15 years of knowing them. You never know who God is calling you to speak to. Don't give up. Don't assume. LOVE, show LOVE, walk in line with Christ as much as you can. Set an example of what a TRUE Christian is. This is how we bring people to the lord.

    Just my 2 cents. Sorry if this is a bit out of context of the thread. I know I'm new and haven't read the entire bible (yet) but I I'm feeling incredibly passionate about this lately. We have to be Christlie if we are to call ourselves Christians. I am not perfect! Though I try to have a kind heart with all, especially unbelievers because they have an eye on me (and all Christians) like a hawk!! Just one slip (OK maybe that's a hyperbole) and they say, "Ah ha! Knew it. You're just like one of us and yet you claim to follow this Jesus guy. All talk."

    We are to set an example. Be that one person who truly follows the Word. Personally, it will probably take me years to get to where I want to be. I can't wait for the day, where I can refute arguments against bible with memorized scriptures (wish I had on a few subjects tonight!) but even so, I can still speak with loving kindness and no condemnation. That sometimes speaks more to the heart of an unbeliever than scripture. Even when I see people on here start to get snappy it hurts and makes me question some of you. It's so important to show love as much as you can. Personally, how you carry yourself and what you say are what show you're a true Christian, not always by your knowledge of the bible and how many scriptures you can quote. Even some atheists are very familiar with the bible and can argue scripture with biblical scholars. Read the Word and live by it.
    autumn oddity and Dirtyrottensinner say Amen and like this.
  11. You're right-we ARE just like them (unbelievers)-dirty rotten sinners. The only difference is we have ACCEPTED the gift from God. They have the opportunity to accept just like we have. It's a tough spot caring for people (even other Christians). So when you try to show them what the Word says-they are not rejecting you-they are rejecting Christ. Yup we make mistakes-good thing the Lord still loves us though isn't it?

    Keep in mind -God has a process: The first step is Salvation IT"S FREE! The second step is Obedience to the Word. Then after that comes blessings (answered prayer).......

    You can't get to #3 without steps 1 & 2 being completed. That's what most people want; the reward without the sacrifice. ALL blessings require a sacrifice. Including salvation-we give up ourselves to be in God's will. It really is that simple.
  12. Sorry, I wrote that post half asleep so I know I reiterated a bunch of points and perhaps didn't make a ton of sense. Thanks for your post Dirty. I wish more people walked and talked like Christians instead of just caring about how much biblical knowledge they have.

    Oh and I didn't read everyone responses before I posted so sorry. Seems like ya'll said the same thing.
  13. Apologies I have many other responsibilities and obligations. I read the responses, twice over and thought how to respond.

    So I was thinking of the video and studying Acts with the story of Steven. If ever there was a story where someone; "didn't come to change anyone, but to love", "THIS AIN'T THAT STORY"!

    Consider the words of Steven in Acts 7;

    “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered Him, you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.” (Acts 7 51 53 NIV)

    The response;

    When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. (Acts 7 54 NIV)

    Steven obviously wasn’t too concerned about; judging harshly, condemning, appearing better, or offending the Jews, Steven didn’t even quote a Pagan of his day. His only concerned is the Gospel be preached and God be glorified. Jesus said the world will hate the true Christian John 15 18 so why should the Christian care?

    Steven’s indictment of the Jews was so severe and condemning, it threw them into fits of uncontrollable rage, a murdering frenzy that didn’t stop until Steven breathed his last breath.

    Listen, God’s elect are God’s elect from the beginning of time, they will be saved with or without our help. I believe as Christians we should be Bold in the Truth and not care who we offend or what the world thinks. The Christian’s job is to get The Word out, the Holy Spirit will decided who it saves. God’s Word will never come back void. Since Able in Genesis, through all the Prophets, John the Baptist, to Jesus and all His disciples, they were Bold and not one of them ever cared about anything except the Truth of the Scriptures be proclaimed and God be glorified.

    How do you want to appear in the eyes of Holy and Righteous God; Bold or Lukewarm?

    I decided to be Bold in the Truth and the message in the video I call Lukewarm. The message is neither Hot or Cold; “Be careful of what the world thinks, and don’t offend because that turns people away, and don’t separate yourself, and let’s just all get along, and quote Pagan thoughts on Jesus”. Ha!

    I believe all the examples of Christians in the Scriptures are Bold in the Truth. I don’t believe Christians should go around taking Scripture out of context to suite their own feelings and I don’t think Christians should go around quoting Pagan thoughts on Jesus, as if that means anything at all, except sacrilege. She might as well quoted the devils thoughts on Jesus. Wait a second, the devil has more respect than some celebrity Pagan…

    The Lukewarm attitude isn't going to save anyone, not even the ones who practice it, Jesus will spit you out of His mouth. Revelation 3 16.

    Way too many christians (lower ‘c’ intended) have this image of Jesus skipping through the meadows, picking daises, and just love, love, loving everybody. Consider the Jesus Love hippy movement of the 60s and 70s. Consider the Bible Love Cults, Google it. Just love, love, love, no one fears a jesus like that, no reason to read the Bible, no reason to repent, no reason to stop sinning. Why should anyone, jesus loves everybody, and will forgive everybody, and jesus would never condemn anyone to hell? That’s really groovy but that jesus doesn’t exist!

    christians (lower 'c') always bring up the same 4 or 5 verses on how Jesus loves (most always out of context) in the Gospels, but the thought that Jesus taught more about The Law; (sin, hell, condemnation, justice, wrath, and repentance) than any other figure in the Scriptures, simply escapes them.

    People use the term; "serious as a heart attack!" when something is 'really-really serious'! Well I think a heart attack would be fun-and-games compared to how ‘SERIOUS’ Jesus is about His Word.

    Consider Matthew 7;

    MANY christians (lower case intended), will say to Jesus; "LORD, LORD", and He will say; "I never knew you".

    The 'MANY' will say; "Didn't we do all these things in YOUR name?", and He will say them (christians, lower ‘c’) "Away from Me you evildoers and workers of iniquity!". And that is it, no ifs, ands, or buts about it, no reprieve, no second chance, no nothing… Bye-Bye!

    Jesus is very serious about His Word and knowing Him through His Word, and obedience to His Word. If you don't know His Word, than you don’t know Him and He doesn't know you!
  14. Ahhhh okay now I understand-you are a believer in the 'pre-destination doctrine' I take it?
  15. What else could there be, is God not Sovereign, does He not rule everything that ever; was, is, or will be? The attributes of being God are; Omnipresence, Omniscience, and Omnipotence. God doesn’t live in linear time like we do; (i.e. one minute and then the next), He sees everything past, present, and future as a single thought.

    Consider Hebrews 13

    8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

    Jesus (i.e. God) doesn’t change His mind, He is eternal, forever in the past, forever in the present, forever in the future. One of the attributes of something eternal is that it’s “unchanging”. There are many, many other examples in the Scriptures.

    The Elect, Consider Ephesians 1

    4 Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.

    Note; "He chose us in Him" means to pick for oneself. God chose for His own sake, to choose for Himself, for His will, this is very personal. And the Scriptures are very explicit; “before the foundation of the world”, before the world ever began, before any of us were even born, He had already chosen us. God makes it very clear who would be redeemed before the world was ever created, and He doesn't change His mind about it.

    The Scriptures are clear, there is nothing good in us, we can’t save ourselves. If we could, than Jesus died for nothing. He choose us, we didn’t choose Him. If we choose Him than we would be Sovereign, and I’d be the first one to throw my Bible away, because it would all be a bunch of garbage and lies.
  16. Please specify your thoughts on 'predestination'? Does 'predestination' include all people, or just a few individuals God hand-picks out of the crowd?
    Rusty likes this.
  17. My opinion means nothing, (or any other created being for that matter) but consider the words of Jesus in ;

    Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, (John 10 25, 27 31)

    Again the Scripture is very explicit; His sheep, His voice, He knows them, and He gives them eternal life.

    Jesus and the Father are one! Amen!


    He predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will (Ephesians 1 5)

    He chooses for His pleasure, for His will! Why did He choose some and not all? I don't know, it's none of my business. Gods thoughts are not my thoughts and my thoughts are not His. Who are we to question God? Remember what happened to Job in The Book of Job when he questioned God?

    Anyway I could quote Scripture all day on this topic, there are many, many verses that support the fact that God selected some but not all for eternal life.

    Redemptive history in the Bible has always been about a "FEW". Consider the story of Noah is Genesis, only a "FEW". The story of Lot in Genesis, again only a "FEW".

    Fast forward to New Testament and Luke;

    Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a "FEW" people going to be saved?” He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because "MANY", I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. (Luke 13 22 24) My emphasis added.

    This verse goes on to say "MANY" christians (lower 'c') will find the narrow door and still can't get in. So its not only a FEW, it's a FEW of the FEW.

    How many are a FEW to God? I don't know, but I'm sure it's a bigger number than what I would think?

    So to answer your question about predestination, my thought is whatever Jesus says it is in His Word.
    autumn oddity and Major say Amen and like this.
  18. I don't see anyone questioning God, certainly not through this forums membership. But I do see folks asking important questions, Donato.

    No one on this thread is suggestion "everybody gets saved", but are asking about predestination, a very different subject.

    So what do you make of this verse from the mouth of the Lord? He wants us to ask Him, or not?

    Note God uses the "reason together" idea, not the "I'm God shut up and stop asking questions" theory.

    The Hebrew word for "reason together" is :

    Oh and by the way: Job questioned and God answered and re-blessed him more than ever before.
  19. There's been quite a bit of churn on several threads, and I believe this pretty well covers the issues.

    1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    In the first bolded section we are told to "pray for all men". This is an action on our part, we are to be involved, we are to a certain extent "be our brother's keeper".

    The second bolded section has to do with what is being discussed here. God desires that "all men would be saved".
    That is not "I have chosen these and they are saved regardless", or "I did not choose those, so they can rot".
    God wants EVERYBODY, but we have free will and are corrupt, so, despite the best efforts of the entire Heavenly Host there will be some who refuse God's offer. As Jesus said "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
    autumn oddity, Rusty, Major and 1 other person say Amen and like this.
  20. Spot on Glo! Totally agree...

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